Not trying to be an ass but do want to be honest since that's the only thing that helps. In my opinion this image is neither gritty, grungy, or raw. It's severely under exposed, and lacks any interesting composition. However, I do give you credit for being willing to post and ask for feedback. Hopefully, you will take my comments as constructive criticism rather than simply criticism.
Under exposing the background more, getting better white balance, and adding more light to the players would have gotten you a bit closer to at least an usable shot.
Thomas: I agree with Steve that the shot is underexposed and I don't think you've achieved the feel you were after. The elements you've included in the shot might work, but I think these guys need more practice with the 'pose' because they look a bit unnatural and uncomfortable, like you just demonstrated how you wanted them to hold their sticks behind their heads and they're trying it out for size for the first time, not quite sure it's something they really want to be doing. And maybe you can salvage the exposure in post, but it's too dark.
I must agree with the others. However I have some other suggestions. If possible try to turn off the arena lighting, the lights overhead are the brightest thing in the image and become extremely distracting. Additionally if you are able to have the lights turned off and you have some gear you may be able to move light the players separately from the zamboni (and possibly separate the Zamboni out of the center of the image, as it seems to be distracting from the players and in limbo between being foreground and being background, it doesn't seem to have a specific part. If you are set on keeping it where it is and arranging the players similarly I would recommend attempting to get a higher vantage point so that the background that the players are on is not the Zamboni's side, but rather the ice.
Thanks for the criticism guys. The 'shot' is not underexposed. I cranked the exposure down to give it a dark feel. The arena is is pretty dirty and unattractive so I am trying to pull attention away from that.
Well, whatever I did. It looks like I missed the mark. Big time.
At the very least you might use a layer mask for cranking the exposure down and keep the athletes properly exposed. I think that alone would make a huge difference in the first impression of this photo.
Here it is slightly lightened up. The team is called the Renegades so the old west, psuedo-sepia look is going to stay.
It was a shot that we had literally 2 minutes to setup and shoot before another team had to take the ice. I needed to block out a bunch of 'junk' on the back wall so we moved the Zamboni in. I was jammed into a nasty environment with terrible lighting and no clean backgrounds. Zamboni was introduced to clean up the background and the grunge look was used to mask really poor light and environment.
I still think it looks a little underexposed but deifntiely better than before. Maybe you can selectively knock down the brightness on the lights. They still seem very bright and are distracting.
Excellent try, but I don't think you achieved your goal.
I think if the boys were all posed different from one another, then that's a start.
The grunge post-processing isn't grunge at all, at least not for me.
I find the different socks distracting, especially the white ones.
You can rescue this with some photo shopping, like burn the background, tighter crop, maybe a title with a "grunge" font...
-Paul
most important thing is the identical poses for me, and the lack of use of props. i would have had on guy with a jersey off, one guy with a helmet on, up over his eyes, one guy sitting or leaning against the zamboni. but again, the biggest thing for me is the same pose, it really wrecks the photo for me. the straight line of the players as well is a big turn off, don't be afraid to stagger them. one other thing two that i like to do when shooting more than 2 players is to get more environment in the photo
now, for the grunge, the color is alright in the second shot, but needs more of a duo tone with the existing and a b+w. also, add some texture to the photo to help with the look.
Rick Denham wrote:
one other thing two that i like to do when shooting more than 2 players is to get more environment in the photo
now, for the grunge, the color is alright in the second shot, but needs more of a duo tone with the existing and a b+w. also, add some texture to the photo to help with the look.
cheers {} rd
Great advice guys. Too many times I see advice of 'woot' 'awesome' 'kudos' or whatever when it is a crap photo. Sometimes I have good shots and sometimes not. Thanks for pointing out what could be improved.
I knew this shot had plenty of weaknesses going into it and many would have opted to have not posted it because of that. I chose to post it because of the weaknesses.
Now the real problem is we aren't always given a strong environment or a lot of time to get things 'just right'. Like I said, I had 2 minutes to stage, organize, arrange, AND shoot this picture! Plus I was dealing with an atrocious environment and 4 unruly 14 year old hockey players. This is how it turned out.
Now on to the post-processing. More good advice and lots of ideas for me to go try again. I will add distressed text to this as a final step, but wanted to see this image as just an image at this point.
Thomas, I actually just got an idea that may help fix one of the complaints Rick had that would've required more time on the set but is doable thanks to Photoshop. I'd recommend giving matching the socks on all the players to those of the two in the middle. It is definitely something doable in post. If you don't want to go that far at the very least I'd recommend changing the coloring on the player on the far right's pants so that they are black and the differences do not stand out as much. Can't wait to see what you come up with after more stuff on this. I think you may actually be able to make a huge improvement over what you first posted just by doing work in post.
Thomas, I don't mean to seem like I'm piling on here, but maybe all of these posts will give you something to think about next time you're in this situation.
You’re exactly right in saying we often have less than ideal environments to work with and very little time. My first thought when you mentioned the short time-frame was did you not have any clue you would be taking this photo? Were you sitting there just shooting hockey and out of the blue these four guys want to hire you for a photo shoot and tell you they only have a few minutes? My guess is, that wasn't the case. If not, then I would suggest next time you go into this situation with a game plan and an idea of how you want to handle the situation. Honestly, unless that scenario of them asking you on the spot to take their photo was the case, it's really tough to buy the "I had no time" excuse. I would guess most of us have been in similar situations before, but the key is going into the shoot prepared to get a specific shot and get out. IMO, that’s one thing that really separates a DWAC or someone just taking snapshots and a pro.
If a project has so many “weaknesses”, maybe it’s not worth taking it on (if you’re a freelancer). There are times I turn down work because it would not have been possible to get the client what they expected. I don't believe that saying "no" is a bad thing. In fact, I would rather say "no" than end up with shots that look like someone with a P&S and no photo experience could have snapped. Again, I don't mean to pile on here, but that's really what this image looks like.
So, what could you have done differently? Well, if you were familiar with the facility you would have known the ceiling looks like poo. To me, I would then think about shooting from a position that minimizes or gets rid of the ceiling. This could mean taking a ladder and shooting from an elevated position or shooting from such a low perspective (laying on the ice!) to minimize the ceiling.
I'm also not a fan of how the Zamboni was used in this shot. Again, it just looks like an afterthought and almost clutters the BG even more. With only four guys, you could have used the machine as a prop and had them sitting on or around it. Using that machine as more of a prop and placing them on/around it would have also helped with your BGs because that piece of equipment is large enough it could have filled most of your frame.
Anyway, there are a ton of things that could have been done with this shot and I've got to give you credit for posting it here. Better luck next time out.
Scott Sewell wrote:
You’re exactly right in saying we often have less than ideal environments to work with and very little time. My first thought when you mentioned the short time-frame was did you not have any clue you would be taking this photo? Were you sitting there just shooting hockey and out of the blue these four guys want to hire you for a photo shoot and tell you they only have a few minutes? My guess is, that wasn't the case.
If a project has so many “weaknesses”, maybe it’s not worth taking it on (if you’re a freelancer). There are times I turn down work because it would not have been possible to get the client what they expected. ...Show more →
Actually Scott...believe it or not, that is exactly what happened. I was sitting at hockey practice working on another project when another parent came along in a panic yelling 'it is due TOMORROW!' So I fell for the trap and said "what is"? She explained that the yearbook needed a shot of the 4 boys from the same highschool and she knew I was a photographer. She asked if I had my camera with me. I didn't have my regular gear with me, but I had my 40D in the center console. She says good, you'll have about 2 minutes to get the shot of the boys and you'll need to send it to the yearbook before you go to bed tonight.
You can imagine my surprise. So yes...literally and figuratively I had 2 minutes to cook up this shot. The area behind the glass is riddled with ladders and other maintenance type pieces, how in the world am I going to hide that?? Hmmm...how about the Zamboni? I thought we can park the Zamboni between the boys and the mechanical systems to at least get something to block the ugliness. Now let's get the Zamboni to park on the far side of the logo at center ice so I can shoot low making the boys appear big and warrior like...nope...Zam driver parks the Zamboni at center ice, on the dot, and takes off! Okay...well, work with what you have...work with what you have. I set down and fire off two shots, look at the levels and go to pose the boys when the Zamboni driver walks back up and says "okay, time is up". What?!! I haven't even had time to pose these boys. I grab one more quick shot and am ushered off the ice.
What separates a Pro from a snapshotter is all in the setup. If I can get the shot 'setup' that I want, I can deliver great results. A pro can see or setup a shot quickly. Having had time to setup I would have accounted for all of the negatives aspects of this shot and could have dealt with them.
Since I didn't have any chance to setup or prepare, I am left scrambling in post to salvage this image. I am not embarassed to post my worst. I have plenty of shots I am proud of and deliver day in and day out to my clients. This is just one of those moments that catches you off of your game.
I was understandably less than pleased for one being put in this position and two for not being able to deliver the results that I take pride in. Knowing all of that, here is the current situation. This is my attempt at lemonade...after getting lemons. For better or for worse. I would love the chance to go back and set this shot up the way I want and to reshoot it, but it would only be for my own edification at this point. All that being said, the parents of the other three boys absolutely LOVE the shot and have ordered 16x20 prints of it!! I didn't get one for myself, for all the reasons you can understand. Strange that the photographer and the photographic community don't care for it, but the customer LOVEs it. Go figure, huh!
Thomas Miller wrote:
Strange that the photographer and the photographic community don't care for it, but the customer LOVEs it. Go figure, huh!
I don't see it as strange at all. I'm *way* pickier when shooting than nearly every competitor in my area. They are all pickier than the parents we all serve. Nature of the beast.
GonzagaJere wrote:
Way to be Thomas. I like your measured response to criticism. Sometimes too rare an ability among us photogs.
Uh oh, isn't this where the train begins to derail?
The OP asked for opinions and opinions are what he received. It is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism not criticism for criticisms sake. You make it sound as if all the comments were made to tear down the OP rather than provide useful and objective information. As I've read this thread, all responses were well explained, thoughtful, and well received by the OP.
Why is there always one person who needs to create drama out of nothing? I take it you don't post any images for C&C for fear of being "criticized". I guess we should have all just told him how wonderful and awesome the shot was rather than giving a fair and measured assessment? Not here, sorry. If you want nothing more than to be stroked there are other forums for that.
Obviously the opinion of the client is ultimately what matters, we ALL know and realize that. That doesn't mean that we still cannot discuss the technical and artistic merits of a photograph in order to try and improve.
Hey Thomas... not sure if you'll get the chance to redo the shot, but I think it's a great quick and dirty attempt on short notice. I really like Rick's advice here. Would love to see unique poses and utilizing the zamboni for it too. FWIW, I also like the color in #2 better, and you still can play around with the selective treatment to the BG.
dj dunzie wrote:
Hey Thomas... not sure if you'll get the chance to redo the shot, but I think it's a great quick and dirty attempt on short notice. I really like Rick's advice here. Would love to see unique poses and utilizing the zamboni for it too. FWIW, I also like the color in #2 better, and you still can play around with the selective treatment to the BG.
Thanks DJ.
As I said earlier, this was pretty much the prototype shot for me. What it really did is get my creative juices flowing as to how I would do this given more heads up and time to plan something out. I will ask the coach if I can set something up over the Xmas holiday break. We should be able to find 30 minutes of ice over the break.
