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Jo Dilbeck
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p.1 #1 · Modify current or buy new PC?

I hope some of you technical guru's out there can help me out. I have a Gateway FX8040 with the specifications listed below. I have already expanded RAM to 4GB which is the max the mother board can handle, and I have been told that a new motherboard would not be worth it. I am considering adding 1 or 2 additional internal hard drives, and moving to Windows 7 64bit (currently using Vista Home Premium 64). I feel I am somewhat limited by the 4gb ram, but hoping to optimize the machine with the new HD's and OS. Currently, it works "ok", but slow in CS4 with files with many layers.

So, should I add the HD's and new OS, knowing I'm limited to 4gb ram, or just bite the bullet and build something new from the ground up? I really don't want to scrap this machine out yet, it's only 1.5 years old, but if I'm just putting good money after bad, I'd like to know your opinions.

also, if I go with additional HD's, can someone tell me the best configuration to maximize the scratch disk usage? I plan to put the OS on one disk, but would partitioning the second disk work for scratch purposes, or does scratch disk need it's own?

Lots of stuff below, I culled out the pieces that really didn't have any effect on my decision or the processing ability. Thanks in advance for any of you who can wade through it all and provide your input.

Jo

Product Specification:
Storage Controller Controller Interface Type Serial ATA-300
Type RAID - integrated
Graphics Controller Video Memory 320 MB GDDR3 SDRAM
Graphics Processor / Vendor NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS
Type PCI Express x16 - plug-in card
Digital Video Standard Digital Visual Interface (DVI)
HDCP compatible Yes
Processor Processor Main Features Intel Virtualization Technology
Max Supported Qty 1
Installed Qty 1
64-bit Computing Yes
Multi-Core Technology Quad-Core
Type Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 / 2.4 GHz
Networking Data Link Protocol Ethernet, Fast Ethernet, Gigabit Ethernet
Networking Network adapter - integrated
Mainboard Data Bus Speed 1066 MHz
Chipset Type Intel 975X Express
Optical Storage Rewrite Speed 24x (CD) / 6x (DVD-RW) / 8x (DVD+RW)
Write Speed 40x (CD) / 16x (DVD±R) / 4x (DVD+R DL)
Read Speed 40x (CD) / 16x (DVD)
Type DVD±RW (+R DL) - IDE
Optical Storage (2nd) Read Speed 48x (CD) / 16x (DVD)
Type DVD-ROM
Multimedia Functionality TV Tuner Type Digital and analog TV
Video Input Video capture adapter
Digital TV Reception ATSC
Expansion / Connectivity Interfaces 7 x Hi-Speed USB - 4 pin USB Type A ( 3 in front ) ¦ 3 x IEEE 1394 (FireWire) - 6 pin FireWire ( 2 in front ) ¦ 1 x network - Ethernet 10Base-T/100Base-TX/1000Base-T - RJ-45 ¦ 1 x modem - phone line - RJ-11 ¦ 1 x serial - RS-232 - 9 pin D-Sub (DB-9) ¦ 1 x parallel - IEEE 1284 (EPP/ECP) - 25 pin D-Sub (DB-25) ¦ 1 x keyboard - generic - 6 pin mini-DIN (PS/2 style) ¦ 1 x mouse - generic - 6 pin mini-DIN (PS/2 style) ¦ 2 x display / video - DVI-Analog/Digital - 29 pin combined DVI ¦ 1 x audio - SPDIF output - RCA ¦ 1 x audio - SPDIF output - TOSLINK ¦ 2 x microphone - input - mini-phone 3.5 mm ( 1 in front ) ¦ 2 x headphones - output - mini-phone stereo 3.5 mm ( 1 in front ) ¦ 1 x audio - line-out (center/subwoofer) - mini-phone stereo 3.5 mm ¦ 1 x audio - line-out (rear) - mini-phone stereo 3.5 mm ¦ 1 x audio - line-in - mini-phone stereo 3.5 mm ¦ 1 x display / video - S-video output
Expansion Slots Total (Free) 1 ( 0 ) x processor - LGA775 Socket ¦ 4 ( 0 ) x memory - DIMM 240-pin ¦ 3 ( 2 ) x PCI ¦ 1 ( 0 ) x PCI Express x16 ¦ 1 ( 0 ) x PCI Express x4
Expansion Bays Total (Free) 2 ( 0 ) x front accessible - 5.25" x 1/2H ¦ 3 ( 2 ) x internal - 3.5" x 1/3H ¦ 2 ( 1 ) x front accessible - 3.5" x 1/3H Platform Technology Intel VIIV Technology
Storage Hard Drive 1 x 500 GB - standard - Serial ATA-300
RAM Configuration Features 2 x 512 MB + 2 x 1 GB (now have 4 x 1GB)
Form Factor DIMM 240-pin
Memory Specification Compliance PC2-5300
Memory Speed 667 MHz
Technology DDR2 SDRAM
Installed Size 3 GB / 4 GB (max)
Features Dual channel memory architecture
Voltage Required AC 120/230 V
Power Provided 700 Watt
Technology Optical
Cache Memory Cache Per Processor 8 MB ( 2 x 4MB (4MB per core pair) )
Installed Size 8 MB
Type L2 cache
Storage Controller (2nd) Type IDE - integrated

Nov 17, 2009 at 08:18 PM

Nickle S.
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p.1 #2 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Jo,

The specs of your computer are almost identical to our last rig, also a GatewayFX with 4 Gs RAM. With each iteration of D-SLR, the RAW file sizes got larger and larger until the computer was painfully slow, you know, twiddlin' your thumbs while it's busy rendering. There is a very long thread here that talks about our new custom-built computer, you may find something of interest there:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/831034

I assume you have some sort of warranty on the Gateway, and if so, once you get in there and make too many changes, they may not honor it if something goes wrong. That is the main stumbling block with "off-the-shelf" computers. To further protect themselves, all the major players like Acer, HP, Dell, etc. have locked many options in the BIOS, so though you may be able to speed up the CPU, you will not be able to tweak the voltages and/or frequencies, IOW, the computer is probably very close to going as fast as it will ever go while maintaining its warranty status. You have some very good components like the power supply and the graphics card, if you had the capacity of building a new rig, you could save some money by using those parts, but my suggestion is to go for a new rig and keep that one as a backup, which is exactly what we've done.

If that is not feasible now, then, yes, adding a SSD or VelociRaptor as a scratch disc may speed up your Photoshop, but it might just be a very small increase limited by the rest of your configuration.

Nicholas
www.copperhillimages.com

Nov 17, 2009 at 09:13 PM

Jo Dilbeck
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p.1 #3 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Thanks Nicholas, I did check in to AVA Direct previously, but I just don't want to shell out the $1500 or so until I've exhausted my resources with the current machine. I did buy an extended warranty through Best Buy (where I purchased the Gateway), but I'm really not concerned about that at this time, I'll put in what I can/need to in order to maximize the throughput.

PS - thanks for the link to the thread, I had seen that before when it was only on page 1, I'll re-read it all and see if I can glean anything additional.

Edited on Nov 17, 2009 at 09:26 PM · View previous versions

Nov 17, 2009 at 09:20 PM

Nickle S.
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p.1 #4 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Jo Dilbeck wrote:
Thanks Nicholas, I did check in to AVA Direct previously, but I just don't want to shell out the $1500 or so until I've exhausted my resources with the current machine. I did buy an extended warranty through Best Buy (where I purchased the Gateway), but I'm really not concerned about that at this time, I'll put in what I can/need to in order to maximize the throughput.

Jo,
That makes sense to me. But like I said, laying out a couple hundred dollars for a dedicated scratch disc may only give you a very modest increase in Photoshop speed, seeing as you're at the max for RAM right now. Out of 4 Gs, Photoshop can only use about 2.8 or 2.9, if I'm not mistaken.

Nicholas

Nov 17, 2009 at 09:26 PM

alex108
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p.1 #5 · Modify current or buy new PC?

I have similar rig to yours. Q6600 is still a fairly fast CPU. Increase in CPU speed of 20-40% is not worth it. I'm waiting at least till next generation comes out. They are coming out with some new CPUs early next year.

Right now you can definitely speed it up with a good SSD or two (Intel).

Overclock! Your q6600 can easily handle 3 GHz and on air. You might have to get aftermarket cooler for it though.

I'm not sure if Photoshop can utilize 8800, but it can utilize the newer GTX2xx videocards for some of it's rendering. I don't know how much faster it makes it but I have GTX295.

Bottom line - between the three upgrades you will sure see increase in your productivity. And even if you get yourself a new rig soon you can use the SSD and the new videocard in it. Don't buy the whole computer though just build it yourself it's very easy; and you will usually have better quality parts in it.

Good luck
Alex

Nov 17, 2009 at 10:24 PM

alex108
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p.1 #6 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Well, you may upgrade your motherboard, that will allow for more RAM if you feel that's the only thing limiting you.

Nov 17, 2009 at 10:29 PM

Jo Dilbeck
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p.1 #7 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Thanks Alex, but if I upgrade the motherboard, HDD's, graphics card, OS and RAM, I might as well shell out the ponies for a brand new machine. It's really frustrating that a machine that was pretty much top 2 years ago is now not able to keep up with what I need it to do. Maybe I need a new hobby, like knot tying or something simple like that

But, the HDD's and OS should cost me less than $350, and maybe that will hold me over for another year or two......until I upgrade to the 5DMII............

Jo

Nov 17, 2009 at 10:43 PM

alex108
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p.1 #8 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Jo Dilbeck wrote:
Thanks Alex, but if I upgrade the motherboard, HDD's, graphics card, OS and RAM, I might as well shell out the ponies for a brand new machine. It's really frustrating that a machine that was pretty much top 2 years ago is now not able to keep up with what I need it to do. Maybe I need a new hobby, like knot tying or something simple like that

But, the HDD's and OS should cost me less than $350, and maybe that will hold me over for another year or two......until I upgrade to the 5DMII............

Jo

1. Jo, how big are the files you talking about? I have a 5DII and I my Photoshop is "flying". Also you mention that you have a 500GB HDD. What is the specific model? I'm sure we can figure out where your computer bottlenecks.

2. Overclocking will cost you only $30-$40 for the new cooler and some Arctic Silver. For example you buy a new motherboard and more RAM you only out $200 -$300 depending on MB and RAM you get. Intel's current CPU speeds are around 3GHZ and you can match that with overclocking.

3. Technology changes very fast, and I don't suggest you do like I do and upgrade your computer every 6 month, but you can just upgrade some critical components once in a while, than it's not very expensive. New high end computers are usually more expensive to buy then to build. If you buy some of the new components now you can reuse them in a new build. Let's say you buy a GTX275 videocard now. Well, in January or spring Intel comes out with a new CPU that you have to get, but - guess what - you don't have to buy the videocard because yours is still very fast.

Nov 17, 2009 at 11:06 PM

Jo Dilbeck
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p.1 #9 · Modify current or buy new PC?

alex108 wrote:

1. Jo, how big are the files you talking about? I have a 5DII and I my Photoshop is "flying". Also you mention that you have a 500GB HDD. What is the specific model? I'm sure we can figure out where your computer bottlenecks. A few of the bigger ones I just completed run between 700-900mb each. The HDD is a Seagate Barracuda Model ST3500630AS.
2. Overclocking will cost you only $30-$40 for the new cooler and some Arctic Silver. For example you buy a new motherboard and more RAM you only out $200 -$300 depending on MB and RAM you get. Intel's current CPU speeds are around 3GHZ and you can match that with overclocking. I wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to do this. I've added HD's, ram, and PCI cards, but never a cooler or done overclocking.......

3. Technology changes very fast, and I don't suggest you do like I do and upgrade your computer every 6 month, but you can just upgrade some critical components once in a while, than it's not very expensive. New high end computers are usually more expensive to buy then to build. If you buy some of the new components now you can reuse them in a new build. Let's say you buy a GTX275 videocard now. Well, in January or spring Intel comes out with a new CPU that you have to get, but - guess what - you don't have to buy the videocard because yours is still very fast. Well, now that I check my files, this computer is actually 2.5 years old already. Golly time flies when you're having fun!

I guess I could just get off the fence and buy a new computer, I have a lens I need to sell that would cover a goodly portion of it (Canon 135 F2). Maybe I need to ask Santa for a new machine for Christmas

Nov 18, 2009 at 01:48 AM

alex108
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p.1 #10 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Hey, I won't stop you from buying a new computer - I know how much fun it could be

Yeah, you would think that in 2.5 year CPU speed really doubled but it's not. I've upgraded almost everything in my computer several times since than but the CPU. On the other, hand the computer you want is not cheap and may not improve your speed much. I'd save a $1000 towards 32nm CPUs when they come out.

Now, assuming that you only slowing down with large files your obvious problem is RAM. If it always seem slow, lagging when you using tools - getting new HDD or SSD (maybe even separate for boot, scratch and general storage) should help. Upgrading CPU is not going to help you dramatically.

OK, you can swap out HDDs, RAM and cards you can certainly swap out the fan

The instructions usually come with a new fan. Overclocking the Q6600 to 3GHz is very easy too, it's just a setting in the BIOS. Most MB will let you do that and to get 3GHz you don't even have to raise voltages. Even if you don't overclock Q6600 is not that much slower then core i5 or i7.

Win7 also has better RAM utilization.

Nov 18, 2009 at 04:21 AM

Marcel VanEerd
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p.1 #11 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Remember that adding drives might push your powersupply over a comfortable limit for wattage... When I build a new system, my first check is how much ram can I put in it, and can the BIOS handle virtualization. Why? If you pick a board that can handle 16 Gigs of RAM, you're pretty much guaranteed it will be compatible for a long time with the latest CPU. (Virtualization is an easy way to test a new operating environment without destroying your current setup.) Everything else on the board is not important, aside from the chipset in general. I mean - I don't care for xx channels of sound, on-board video and dual 1G ethernet ports, and the like.

Read as much as you can on reviews on boards and cpu's and go from there. I personally don't bother with overclocking. Yes - you can get more speed for your buck, but it's not really worth it, imho.

Nov 18, 2009 at 05:11 AM

Baywing
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p.1 #12 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Also, when dealing with Dell, HP, Gateway and the like, be sure that the machine can handle stock components. I tried a larger chip in my Dell and couldn't install a cooler due to the layout of the motherboard. The only cooler that would fit was the one that came in the machine and it really wasn't up to the task of keeping the new higher powered chip cool.
I'll be building my next machine, that way all the components should be "compatible".

Nov 18, 2009 at 04:09 PM

Jo Dilbeck
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p.1 #13 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Marcel - I have Vista Home Premium, which is apparently not compatible with virtualization, so that won't work. However, I have considered maintaining the current HD I have, and adding the new OS to a separate, new HD. This should allow me to somewhat accomplish the same thing shouldn't it, just choosing which HD to boot from?

Jo

Nov 18, 2009 at 05:03 PM

Tim Speciale
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p.1 #14 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Computer speed is more than GHZ. Intel's latest i7 chips are a bit better than the C2D's
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i5,2410-12.html

Nov 18, 2009 at 07:03 PM

15Bit
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p.1 #15 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Probably the easiest upgrade for you would be to max out the RAM and add a fast scratch disk. It doesn't need to be big, so it shouldn't cost too much. When you upgrade later it can be transferred to the new PC also, so it isn't going to be a waste of money.

Overclocking vendor PC's is usually not possible - they tend to lock down the bios controls to stop people from doing it. To overclock you would probably need to buy a new motherboard, and if you are going that route you may as well just go the whole hog and buy a new motherboard/cpu/RAM for the latest generation.

Nov 18, 2009 at 07:23 PM

alex108
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p.1 #16 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Tim Speciale wrote:
Computer speed is more than GHZ. Intel's latest i7 chips are a bit better than the C2D's
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i5,2410-12.html

That's exactly my point, I've seen all kind of reviews, and best case scenario they show is 20-50% CPU speed increase compared to Q6600, which is good, don't get me wrong, but usually when people say "my computer is slow" the modest CPU speed increase is not going to fix it.

Just installing clean operating system, without all the garbage that usually comes with prebuilt systems, will usually result in Wow effect. The computer works fast! A little optimization like disabling indexing service and antivirus will help a lot too. Than toss in a good SSD and your computer will be screaming fast

Nov 18, 2009 at 10:52 PM

alex108
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p.1 #17 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Jo Dilbeck wrote:
Marcel - I have Vista Home Premium, which is apparently not compatible with virtualization, so that won't work. However, I have considered maintaining the current HD I have, and adding the new OS to a separate, new HD. This should allow me to somewhat accomplish the same thing shouldn't it, just choosing which HD to boot from?

Jo

Marcel was talking about BIOS support for virtualization not OS. If I understood correctly Marcel is suggesting to buy a high end motherboard for better support and features. There are many virtual machine solutions that will work with different BIOSes (whether it's natively supported or not) and OSes including Vista even "Home" editions.

You can put another OS (or another instance of the same OS) on a different HDD or even on the same one - dualboot. That way you can maintain different setups optimized for office work, playing games, or photoshop.

Nov 18, 2009 at 11:07 PM

Marcel VanEerd
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p.1 #18 · Modify current or buy new PC?

^ Correct.

If you don't want to spring for new hardware then, imho, if you want to do a dual boot, partition your new drive with one very small partition and put a very basic Linux install on it (ie Ubuntu server without any programs) after you installed your new Windows. Linux is extremely good at recognizing existing operating systems and will make for a far easier dual (or in this case, triple) boot system. Much more reliable than messing with a dual Windows boot, I dare say. Just don't ever wipe the Linux install out... restoring the master boot record (mbr) of a Windows drive is an absolute nightmare in my experience, and hardly ever works to satisfaction.

Nov 19, 2009 at 02:58 AM

Jo Dilbeck
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p.1 #19 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Lots of good suggestions here, thanks to everyone. As 15Bit said, if I have to buy a new MB, I might as well buy the whole new machine, and I've already maxed out the RAM at 4GB. The only real options I have with this machine then are
1) Update OS to Windows 7 (supposed to be faster) Cost = $149 (might as well do my husbands PC as well and take advantage of the 3 license cost)
2) Add another HD into the box, partition that one for the new OS, and programs (or scratch) - $100-$150 depending on size
3) Use my existing HD (500gb) for all data once new HD is all loaded up.

So, for under $350 or so, I should conceivably be able to speed up my system somewhat, right? Right now, that's better for me than investing in a whole new machine at $1500-$2000.

So, I guess my last question is this, when I partition the drive for the OS and "other" (be it data or scratch), what is the optimal size for the OS partition?

Thanks again,

Jo

Nov 19, 2009 at 06:49 PM

Marcel VanEerd
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p.1 #20 · Modify current or buy new PC?

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/downloads/upgrade-advisor

Nov 19, 2009 at 07:03 PM

15Bit
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p.1 #21 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Jo,

The ideal layout probably runs to a 3 physical disk setup. The OS is installed on one disk, the photos are stored on another and the Photoshop/Lightroom scratch runs off the third. Partitioning is a convenient way of dividing up a disk, but you can't make one disk perform like two by doing it. Photos, scratch and windows swap need to be on separate physical disks, not separate partitions.

If going with a two disk arrangement i guess i would go with a 40-50Gb or so partition for windows (C-Drive), with the rest of disk 1 housing the photos (D-Drive). Disk 2 can then have a partition for scratch (maybe 50Gb or something as Z-drive) with the rest given over to housing your normal files / backups etc (say E-Drive). That way the heavy load on the disks goes to C drive (windows swap) and Z-drive (PS Swap). The other two drives should get a lot less i/o, though there is a slight bottleneck when saving out the picture to D drive, as windows may also need to swap.

Nov 19, 2009 at 07:41 PM

Jo Dilbeck
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p.1 #22 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Thanks 15Bit, thats exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

Marcel, not sure why you pointed me where you did, I know my machine can handle Windows 7 already, not much additional there about partitioning and scratch disks, was there something else I was supposed to see?

Jo

Nov 19, 2009 at 10:23 PM

Marcel VanEerd
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p.1 #23 · Modify current or buy new PC?

^ My main reason for posting that link is to establish whether or not you might encounter any driver issues. If you have already researched that, great!

Nov 20, 2009 at 01:25 AM

alex108
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p.1 #24 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Well since this topic is still going - I had another thought. I've just installed photoshop on my laptop with Core2Duo, W7, 9800GT with 1GB RAM, 4GB RAM, SSD for OS and HDD for storage. Wow what a slowdown compared to my desktop.

Jo, you didn't specify if your photoshop is slow all the time - like during regular tool usage(it shouldn't be), when you process a lot of files, or only when you working with large files; in any case watch your CPU/core usage and disk activity during the slowdowns.

Overall it seems like you have a good plan for now; and I agree with 15bit on 3 disk setup. With price of HDDs so low you might as well get another one for the scratch.

The thing to consider: though you don't need a lot of space for scratch or OS you should get a moderatly large drive (640GB -1TB) - they are faster then the smaller ones (<500GB). WD blacks seem to be a good compromise of speed without going to Raptors or SSDs, but any (not green) latest models should be fine.

If you do ever install Linux (Ubuntu) - do use it for all your browsing, and office needs. It is really nice.

Please let us know how much faster is everything after your upgrades.

Nov 20, 2009 at 03:28 AM

Kyle Yates
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p.1 #25 · Modify current or buy new PC?

Hi - in addition to the other suggestions - Windows 7 is DEFINITELY worth the upgrade compared to VISTA.

Install the 64 bit version of windows 7 -- a 25 GB partition will be more than enough.

Cheers
-K

Nov 20, 2009 at 09:42 AM


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