ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

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Archive 2009 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Fred Miranda
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p.4 #1 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Jeffrey,
I'm so jealous!! I need to go back to Zion asap now!!

I have not decided if I'm going to get the new 24ts-e II or the 21ze. (I sold my 16-35mm and didn't want to go to the 16-35II route)
I can totally understand the habit of stepping down to f/16 or f/22. After processing and printing it small (13x19") it should be fine. However, when going bigger, we will see a noticeable difference in sharpness because of the loss in resolution.

Optimally, we should be shooting at f/5.6 with these lenses for maximum resolution but of course that would not work for what we want to achieve (maximum dof). That is why I thought about the TS-E on full frame. I'm going to see if if it makes sense to shoot at optimal f/stops and while maintaining the entire field sharp using tilt.
I had done some experiments with that with my ex-24ts-e but that was on the D30!!! and at that time, I could not get the wide angle I wanted. Now on the 5DII, I'm willing to go 24mm and try the TS-E again!!
I will probably get both and write a little comparison review with the pros and cons of both lenses in the field.
My only issue with the 24mm TS-E II. It's may not wide enough in some occasions.
However, If I shoot 3 frames in portrait orientation, shifting 12mm in each direction, I would get a super high resolution image at ~18mm. (If my calculation is correct). Along with that I will probably be able to shoot at f/5.6 using tilt and get even more resolution for my prints. If everything works, I would print at 20x30in using the 21ze image and this 18mm(shifted) 24ts-e image for comparison. Should be fun!

Take care,
Fred

Mar 31, 2010 at 05:58 PM

Jeffrey
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p.4 #2 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Hi Fred,

Sorry to tell you this, but I have three Zeiss ZE primes in my bag now, 21, 35 and 85. You are right about the sweet spot of a lens, but I think it goes higher than f5.6. With the 1DsIII and good post skills, I have very sharp images at f16, and sometimes beyond. I owned the 24 t/s for a while, but it was before I really knew how to use it, and I was heading to a 4x5 which I still use a lot. Lens quality is so good these days that I push the f stops a bit further than 8-10 years ago.

We all look forward to your decision, and the results of your experiments.

Tow more ZE images...,

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Mar 31, 2010 at 07:25 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.4 #3 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Lovely images as always Jeffrey.
I have been dreaming about the Zeiss 21 and 35mm for a while. How does your 35mm compare to the 21mm?

Mar 31, 2010 at 07:45 PM

wayne seltzer
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p.4 #4 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Jeffrey,

I disagree. Shooting at small apertures like f13 and f16 reduce IQ due to both diffraction and also due to the fact that most lenses have peak sharpness at f5.6 or f8 and then decline steadily after that.
Take a look at Lloyd Chamber's post on diffraction effects on his website.
I agree that there is a balancing act and that sometimes you need to stop down that much to get enough DOF to cover both close subjects and far subjects but you are doing it at the price of reduced IQ.
Also, if it is a subject with not much fine detail then it won't show as much so then it maybe a wise tradeoff.
Another option is to shoot multiple focus bracketed shots with a shallower aperture to max IQ and then use HeliconFocus to put them together.
You won't maybe notice the difference in web size shots but you will if you print large enough.
And I don't think there is any way in post processing to get back the fine detail lost when shooting at very small apertures.

Mar 31, 2010 at 07:54 PM

Jeffrey
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p.4 #5 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

You're right Wayne. I believe the differences are small enough for me to live with, since I have numerous large prints from digital f16 images that are fine, and my LF work is often f16 to f32. I'm trying not to think at the molecular level.

Fred, I believe, so far, that my 21ZE and 35ZE are of similar quality. I know you enjoy large landscapes, so I suggest you give the 21 a try. You'll have to deal with convergence if your camera is not square to your subject (as always with wide angles).

Jeffrey

Mar 31, 2010 at 08:37 PM

Lotusm50
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p.4 #6 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

tsdevine wrote:

I'm sure holes will be poked in this, but FWIW here are some corner comparisons. Shot with 5D, tripod, MLU, etc. Focus was on the center of the frame (the building), so some of the corner softness may be due to field curvature. Processed through DxO with lens corrections turned off (only matters for the 16-35 mk II.) I can't remember if sharpening was turned off or set to default. Crops are of upper left corner. Left capture is with the 16-35 mk II, right is with the Zeiss 21mm Distagon.

Don't know if this is helpful, but figured I'd post.

Not really sure it is all that helpful, the crops are not from the plane of focus. That tree branch appears to be well in front of the building.

Mar 31, 2010 at 08:43 PM

Daniel Heineck
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p.4 #7 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Wayne--whilst I don't disagree with your assessment, I've noted myself that "diffraction limited" photos sharpen up better than "abberation limited" photos. Having gone through the theory as well, it makes mathematical sense (well, deconvolution of diffraction is more predictable, so to say)

But yes, more or less it's best not to stop down one's aperture more than absolutely necessary.

Jeffrey--I'm sure you know, but f16-f32 on a LF camera (4x5 I assume?) is nowhere near as deleterious as f16 on a 35mm camera. Not only are you not aerially magnifying a 4x5 print as much as a 35mm, but the transition between "abberation-limited" and "diffraction-limited" resolution happens much later, especially when movements are involved. It's nigh impossible to make a LF lens as well corrected as a 35mm lens due to the dramatically larger projection.

Mar 31, 2010 at 09:22 PM

prashant
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p.4 #8 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

can you please post a typical landscape shot with it? I want to see the distant elements at 100% crops

Mar 31, 2010 at 09:30 PM

wayne seltzer
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p.4 #9 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Daniel Heineck wrote:
Wayne--whilst I don't disagree with your assessment, I've noted myself that "diffraction limited" photos sharpen up better than "abberation limited" photos. Having gone through the theory as well, it makes mathematical sense (well, deconvolution of diffraction is more predictable, so to say)

But yes, more or less it's best not to stop down one's aperture more than absolutely necessary.

Jeffrey--I'm sure you know, but f16-f32 on a LF camera (4x5 I assume?) is nowhere near as deleterious as f16 on a 35mm camera. Not only are you not aerially magnifying a 4x5 print as much as a 35mm, but the transition between "abberation-limited" and "diffraction-limited" resolution happens much later, especially when movements are involved. It's nigh impossible to make a LF lens as well corrected as a 35mm lens due to the dramatically larger projection.

I agree with you and that is what I meant by sometimes using small apertures to get enough DOF, basically trading off loss of IQ due to diffraction vs. gain in DOF for the scene if you need it.

Apr 01, 2010 at 12:13 AM

charles.K
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p.4 #10 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Magiclight: As well as the sharpness advantage, the way the 21ZE "draws" was an eye opener for me. Just magic!

I also have the 24L II, and it is sharp also, but as magiclight has eluded to, the 21ZE ability to "draw", is amazing. I have taken shots, from similar sites with the 24LII and the ZE 21, the ZE 21 ability to extract, colors,depth and feeling is very different. It is not just the sharpness. With PP a lot of the minor advantages in sharpness are over shadowed. The "drawing" ability of the lens cannot be duplicated IMHO.

Apr 01, 2010 at 12:50 AM

adamdewilde
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p.4 #11 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

I've shot the 35/2 at about f/16 and really haven't noticed much of a sharpness trade off, looking at the image on a 24" computer full screen, I am quite pleased... I haven't printed yet, but when I do print it rarely goes beyond standard magazine sizes.

Apr 01, 2010 at 06:36 PM

charles.K
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p.4 #12 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Adamwilde: I think you have you have hit the point. Depending on your target output, there are so many different ways of processing. I find for large prints A3+ sizes, it so different, that what we see on large calibrated monitors, where there so many varying perspectives deciding the ultimate IQ of lenses.

Apr 02, 2010 at 03:57 AM

adamdewilde
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p.4 #13 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

I really should go out and shoot some landscapes worth printing... then I should print them.

Apr 02, 2010 at 07:31 AM

charles.K
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p.4 #14 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Jeffrey: Your shots are just amazing!

Apr 02, 2010 at 11:08 AM

Daan B
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p.4 #15 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Anybody know how the Distagon 21mm compares to the Distagon 18mm 3.5 optically?

Apr 02, 2010 at 11:18 AM

Andi Dietrich
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p.4 #16 · ZE-21 on the 1DsIII Samples

Daniel Heineck wrote: I've noted myself that "diffraction limited" photos sharpen up better than "abberation limited" photos.

yes, very true when a lens has "lateral colour", normal CA though is less of a problem. I also agree with Jeffrey, with a good lens/camera you can stop down quite a bit before the print gets visibly softer and even then the quality is as good as we can wish for.

Apr 02, 2010 at 11:35 AM

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