PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

FM Forums \| Lighting & Studio Techniques \| Join Upload & Sell	Search Used
1 2 end

Archive 2009 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Kurt Paris
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #1 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Heya Folks,

so at the moment i'm using really cheap/crappy radio triggers which sync at around 1/80 max reliably. I use 1 Receiver with my 580EX and then use its master mode to trigger off any other flashes.

I need to upgrade my trigger and would like to upgrade to pocket wizards.... BUT from what i could read online it seems that if you attach a flash to a TT5 flex receiver it disables the Canon IR system.

Did anyone find a workaround for this or are you forced to use one PW per flash?

Assuming PW wont manage this, is there any other product which would allow me to trigger one flash using radio and then it in turn triggers the others using IR? Ideally i'd like to sync all the way up to 1/4000 (hss)

Any tips would be really appreciated

Kurt

Nov 11, 2009 at 07:11 AM

cgardner
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #2 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

FIrst off the way you are using the Canon gear, triggering the Master via a single radio trigger, isn't how it is designed to work. Its designed to have the Master connected to the hot shoe (directly or via OC-E2 cord). All five contacts in the shoe are needed for control and metering functions. Not saying what you are doing isn't working for you, only that you are using in ways it wasn't designed to function, akin to trying to pound nails with a screwdriver.

The PW flex system doesn't use the Canon Master / Slave protocol either. The flashes placed in the receiver units are place in the normal wireless off ETTL mode, not "slave" and the receiver unit controls them in much the same way as the camera controls a single flash mounted in the hot shoe.

Before spending any more money on technology you clearly don't fully understand I would suggest trying to understand and use what you have first. The Canon system actually works quite well in most situations once it is understood and used according to its design.

1) Use a 580ex as Master in the hot shoe or better on a bracket via OC-E3 cable. There is no IR involved when a 580ex is used in the hotshoe as master. Commands to the slaves are sent after full shutter press via a short burst of coded VISIBLE pre-flash from the main flash head which occurs so quickly it appears to merge with the main flash.

2) Orient the base of the slave in the direction of the Master. The sensor on the slave is the little gray lens under the flash head. It needs to see the light from the Master. Line of sight is not needed...

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Range isn't a problem indoors. The specified range is 40 feet but I routinely exceed it...

This image is copyrighted by the owner

For that shot I bounced most of the Master / FIll off the high ceiling which was still sufficient to trigger the slave placed just out of view on the stage which is lighting the lead singer.

3) Outdoors keep the slave sensor out of the direct sun: The specified range outdoors or a 580ex master is 25 feet, but I've shot from 35' (10 meters) with no problem. Just as your eyes would be the slave flash sensor will be blinded if the sun hits it directly.

In direct sun the most effective strategy with flash is to put the sun at the back of the subject as rim light using one or more flashes in front of the subject as key and fill. If the Master/FIll is over the camera bracket its simply a matter of turning the base of the slave back to face the camera, which puts the sensor window in the shade of the flash unit the same way the face of the subject is shaded from the sun. In that orientation there are no problems with triggering.

What I'm telling you here is that the Canon system works better than you perhaps think it does because you don't know how to use it to its full advantage

Try it before throwing more money at the problem.

See this tutorial: LINK

Chuck

Nov 11, 2009 at 02:14 PM

Kurt Paris
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #3 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

i'm 'Throwing money at the problem' since the triggers i have are inadequate (for the reasons i listed) - i have no interest in the canon system since that forces me to have a flash on the camera (wastes a flash, adds weight and adds no benefit). As it stands i dont use ETTL on set anyway.

The only reason i'd want to use the canon master/slave system triggered via radio is to avoid buying a pocketwizard for each flash, and currently it allows me to adjust the power of each flash from the master.

As it stands (maybe i am wrong).. the only benefits to getting a set of PWs versus the new Cactus ones is that the PWs will allow me to sync up to 1/4000 (using high speed sync) in any condition... a feature that is lost once i get proper strobes.

I was planning to use their 'hypersync' option but it seems the lovely 5Dmk2 will not go above 1/200 or 1/250 reliably anyway

Nov 11, 2009 at 06:58 PM

cgardner
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #4 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Kurt Paris wrote:
i have no interest in the canon system since that forces me to have a flash on the camera (wastes a flash, adds weight and adds no benefit). As it stands i dont use ETTL on set anyway.

No benefit? You must not understand the merits of neutral fill or how it produces a full tonal range in your images without any unfilled harsh voids in the lighting pattern. But heck what do I know, I've only been doing it that way successfully for 35 years

Chuck

Nov 11, 2009 at 08:13 PM

shoebox9
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #5 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Do any of the worlds top pros use a flash on their camera for images they care about? (None I've yet come across.)

Plenty of others much further down the pecking order feel exactly the same way, so don't feel too alone Kurt.

Some commercial guys do use on-axis fill with ring flashes, as image prep for ultra heavy post-processing, but most portrait photographers don't like the unnatural looking and harsh skin texture under the neck etc that on-axis fill creates.

Nov 12, 2009 at 12:55 AM

cgardner
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #6 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

shoebox9 wrote:
Do any of the worlds top pros use a flash on their camera for images they care about? (None I've yet come across.)

Oddly it was a top wedding pro, Monte Zucker, who I learned the technique from 35 years ago. Several thousand wedding shooters over 30 years also learned from him and adopted the same methods. Also quite a few flash brackets are sold to pros. What do you guess they use them for?

Also remember we are discussing hot shoe flash not studio lighting. Photojournalists use flash on camera all the time in combination with ambient light. Using flash on camera for fill with an off camera flash is the same concept taken indoors.

I'll be the first to agree that its not the only solution, but it is a very practical one in a wide range of situations. Also if one bothers to invest in Canon flash why not explore all options for using it? The more tools in the bag, the more options come to mind when trying to find the most effective solution to a new problem.

As for shadows under chins? There are no rules, just cause and effect. But the way to make lighting look natural is to mimic the angle of natural lighting and in case you haven't noticed natural light from overhead creates a shadow under the chin, and the contrast of that shadow under the chin with the highlighted chin is what helps define the 3D shape of the chin.

If chin and neck are the same tone the chin disappears into the neck. If that is the desired effect then the solution is to move the fill lower, but not so low the cheek bones cast upward shadows into the eye sockets. No rules, just cause and effect.

Here's a bad case of Shadow under the chin in a studio shot with neutral fill....

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Shadow is the name of the horse... Here's a shot with Shadow removed, same lighting

Chuck

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:08 AM

cordellwillis
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #7 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

shoebox9 wrote:
Do any of the worlds top pros use a flash on their camera for images they care about? (None I've yet come across.)

Plenty of others much further down the pecking order feel exactly the same way, so don't feel too alone Kurt.

Some commercial guys do use on-axis fill with ring flashes, as image prep for ultra heavy post-processing, but most portrait photographers don't like the unnatural looking and harsh skin texture under the neck etc that on-axis fill creates.

It's how you use it, not about blasting your subject with on camera flash. Chuck is talking about fill flash and triggering the off camera flashes with the on camera flash. That is common, especially with a TT1/5 or RadioPopper PX triggers. Matter of fact, with the RP PX system you have to have either a Flash or IR thingy on the camera.

Nov 12, 2009 at 05:15 AM

Kurt Paris
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #8 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

cgardner wrote:
Kurt Paris wrote:
i have no interest in the canon system since that forces me to have a flash on the camera (wastes a flash, adds weight and adds no benefit). As it stands i dont use ETTL on set anyway.

No benefit? You must not understand the merits of neutral fill or how it produces a full tonal range in your images without any unfilled harsh voids in the lighting pattern. But heck what do I know, I've only been doing it that way successfully for 35 years

Chuck

Could you please be less condescending?

There are plenty of people who have been doing something for 35 years and are still rubbish at it... so that is hardy a usable metric.

The only time in the studio that i put a flash on the camera is when i'm using a ring flash. Many times i prefer reflectors for fill. On camera flash i find flattens the face and produces god-awful pin catchlights in the middle of the eye (yes photoshop i know can be used.. but why?)

cgardner wrote:

Also remember we are discussing hot shoe flash not studio lighting.

I am in fact talking about using flashes in the studio (or on-location-studio), i just realised that i did not specify this in the OP and i apologise.

Now can we please stop talking about on-camera flash and move back to the triggers?

Nov 12, 2009 at 08:46 AM

wickerprints
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #9 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

It really bothers me to read threads like this. The story line usually goes: (1) OP asks question (2) someone who knows the answer gives irrelevant advice and does not answer the question (3) OP gets frustrated (4) knowledgeable pro says, "I've been doing this for N years, you know nothing" etc. etc. (5) OP gets labeled an ignorant noob.

To the OP: I really feel for you, honestly I do. Radio triggers and hot shoe flashes are rarely explained well. I'm hardly an idiot, but even I find the topic challenging to learn about, and this is because there is simply a lack of clear, precise information available out there. But it's not intrinsically difficult.

Here's what's going on. The PocketWizard ControlTL system (i.e. Flex+Mini) works by intercepting the signal sent through the hotshoe of the body that controls all the flash parameters. This signal is encoded as a radio frequency pulse that is transmitted to all other PW transceivers on the same channel. The receiver then decodes the RF signal into the appropriate electronic information and sends it through the hotshoe atop the unit. Therefore, ETTL-II is possible with ControlTL units.

At no time does the ControlTL system utilize the Canon Speedlite built-in optical triggers. It disables it because it would cause conflict, since the optical trigger mechanism works by firing a visible preflash. So yes, you will need a receiver for each Speedlite in your setup. It is expensive, but the reason why people use it is for the following benefits:

(1) Full ETTL-II control over RF. This is the most obvious benefit and it basically means you "set it and forget it."
(2) Ability to use HSS up to the maximum shutter speed.
(3) HyperSync, which recalculates shutter and flash timing to increase maximum X-sync speed slightly depending on the body (at the expense of some flash efficiency).
(4) Integrated hot shoe mounts.
(5) Firmware upgradeable via mini-USB port.

There are competing products out there, and I suggest you consider those as well. But if you do not need ETTL, the ControlTL units may not be the best value for your money. The reason why is because there exist much cheaper solutions, such as CyberSyncs, RadioPopper JrX, Elinchrom Skyports, and even PocketWizard's own Plus II models. All of these have been given good reviews, but none of them are ETTL capable.

Also bear in mind that the FlexTT5 and MiniTT1 presently have an issue with radio frequency interference with certain Canon Speedlite models, including the 580EX II. The problem is that the Speedlite emits excess RF noise in the same band as that set aside for ControlTL, thereby reducing effective range (in some configurations quite drastically). The workarounds offered at present are to attach the device via a shielded hotshoe cord, or to shield the Speedlite with an RF blocking cover (which is being offered by PW at no additional cost).

I hope this helps give you some more information to follow up on. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask--although I'm very new at this myself, so I might not be able to answer.

Nov 12, 2009 at 10:15 AM

Garry Burton
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #10 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Kurt Paris wrote:
Assuming PW wont manage this, is there any other product which would allow me to trigger one flash using radio and then it in turn triggers the others using IR? Ideally i'd like to sync all the way up to 1/4000 (hss)

Any tips would be really appreciated :)

Kurt

Sorry to get back on topic for you Kurt....

Sorry mate, you have to use the Canon speedlight or STE2 in your shoe (or connected via the OC3/OC2 cord to the shoe) to enable/use HSS.

(You probably know this) You can also HSS with a Mini or Flex as transmitter to speedlights mounted to a Flex but yes, the Canon system is disabled except if you have a speedlight or STE2 in the shoe on top of the Mini/Flex to communivcate to other speedlights not "Flexed".
I use a STE2 on top of my Mini for AF assist and go manual for the rest attched to PW Plus IIs. I'm heading down the Flex path as receivers for using HSS in the sun where the Canon system sucks.

The PW site states that you can achieve HSS using the Mini/Flex as transmiiter to PW Plus IIs/PW/Multimax connected to speddlights but that's rubbish.

You can use the PWs or better than crappy triggers to fire a speedlight and that speedlight to fire using the Canon system by using an accessory hot shoe with a sync port (Do not use the Canon sync port on the 580EXIIs, this will not allow you to fire other speedlights with the Canon system, hence the accesory hot shoe) but no HSS. You will be able to get 200/250 sec on a 40D and 160/200 sec on a 5D depending on the latency of the trigger you're using.

In the long run, sounds like you're heding into the "Wireless Trigger Cash pit", haha. That's where it goes.........

PS: wickerprints gazumped me, yes +1.

Cheers Gaz

Nov 12, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Kurt Paris
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #11 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

@wicker - thanks for the explanation.

re (1) Call me archaic but i prefer having the lights on manual so for me ETTL isnt something i'm looking for.
(2) HSS i like - does this work with studio strobes or is it limited to flashes?
(3) Hypersync seems to max out at 1/250 with the 5D mk2 from reports i've seen. so that was a dissapointment
(4) Same as the other triggers i'm seeing
(5) thumbs up!

Wrt to combining radio and optical triggering - if you ignore ETTL i dont understand is why these would confict since one would use radio and the other light. I could understand that the timing might not be synced (even though with the cheapo triggers this seems to work) - Ultimately i think this is something that PW has disabled to sell more triggers.

@Garry - i'm liking the HSS idea for sunny outdoors in fact

last time i used the canon system outdoors the slaves were acting ridiculously (and no they werent pointed into the sun) - we get lots of sun in malta...

It is a cash pit indeed - even at the prices i found which i think are quite good (£160 for a flex) it still means that they each cost almost as much as a canon flash

Nov 12, 2009 at 10:33 AM

wickerprints
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #12 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

You're welcome.

Again, if you don't need ETTL, then there's not much reason to buy the ControlTL units. Look into Cybersync or the earlier PW Plus II models, which was the product that built PW's reputation among photographers (and subsequently destroyed by the RF interference issues I mentioned with the ControlTLs). You could buy something like 2.2 Cybersyncs for the same price as one PW FlexTT5.

HSS operation depends on the studio strobe in question. I know even less about studio strobes than Speedlites, so I'm afraid I can't answer this for you. HSS works by triggering multiple flashes throughout the curtain movement, so the strobe has to be able to output more or less continuously for the whole curtain duration, which is typically around 1/250s.

Yes, the 5D2 does not benefit much if at all from HyperSync, unfortunately. But HSS is still available.

I know of very few other RF systems that connect the receiver directly to a Speedlite hotshoe without the use of an extra adapter (e.g. FlashZebra). This was one of the reasons why I went with PW, because I didn't want to go with the cheapo triggers, yet I couldn't figure out how to do something as simple as connect a 430EX II to a receiver.

Yeah, truth be told I don't know exactly why one would disable optical triggering...maybe it is as you suggested. But I dunno, I think it is more rational to say that most people who buy into ControlTL do so expecting to spend $$$$. In a world where a lens costs a few grand, and a set of studio strobes + battery packs can cost even more, I think the target audience for ControlTL is not particularly concerned about an extra few hundred here or there. I mean, my jaw dropped when I saw the price on Broncolor parabolic umbrellas.... $9300... WTF

Nov 12, 2009 at 10:52 AM

Garry Burton
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #13 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Cheers Kurt,

these blokes are the cheapest I've found for the Flex http://www.d-d-electronics.com.sg/categories/Lighting/Radio-Triggers/?setCurrencyId=4

I got sucked into the Mini/Flex hype as I wanted HSS (where else but outdoors where the Canon system doesn't work of course...) and the PW site said that HSS is functional with a Mini/Flex as a master and a speedlight connected to an older PW. I have 5 PW PlusIIs and have no need for ETTL, just HSS.
Anyhoot, love the size of the Mini instead of a PWII in the shoe, I use it to trigger the PWs as a simple (but pricey) trigger as I use a lot of modifiers and for Real Estate (speedlights in rooms, nooks and crannies and me outside firing off a speedlight to light a room inside, sorry line of site no worky for me.)

TIP: If you get a Mini (haven't got any Flexes yet, they seem even more fiddly to set up), set the custom functions so that you have your camera model set. The Mini/Flex is suppose to work as a basic trigger but if set so, doesn't work. I use 40Ds and 5Ds so have it set for each. Saves all the farken about.
The firmware for the 5DMKII has supposedly fixed any issues, can't confirm my end.

If I hadn't had so much $$ invested in PWs, I would of gone the Radio Popper route for outside HSS except we don't get them in Oz and the Yanks are having a hard time getting them.
I've also made little collection dishes out of alfoil to try and funnel the Canon IR into the grey sensor. Yep improved it a bit but hit and miss and a bit farked when you're paying $600+ for a top of the line speedlight.

Yep, $3000 in speedlights, $1500 in battery packs/STE2 and another $2500 in triggers. yes a BIG BLOODY PIT.

The PW page FYI and for the trolls that states you can use old and new PWs for HSS
http://www.pocketwizard.com/products/transmitter_receiver/minitt1-canon/

The crapola.
"Use the MiniTT1 for standard triggering with any PocketWizard Receiver including the FlexTT5, PlusII or MultiMAX. When used this way with a digital camera, you can take advantage of PocketWizard’s HyperSync Technology that allows up to 1/500th of a second camera sync with many camera/strobe set-ups. HyperSync allows you to advance the timing of your flash trigger so that faster than X-sync speeds can be achieved.

Need more speed? Push your ControlTL system beyond 1/500th and go into FP/High-Speed Sync mode automatically. No buttons to press or settings to change other than your shutter speed will give you flash sync all the way to 1/8000th."

Cheers Gaz

Nov 12, 2009 at 11:17 AM

wickerprints
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #14 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Garry Burton wrote:
The PW page FYI and for the trolls that states you can use old and new PWs for HSS
http://www.pocketwizard.com/products/transmitter_receiver/minitt1-canon/

The crapola.
"Use the MiniTT1 for standard triggering with any PocketWizard Receiver including the FlexTT5, PlusII or MultiMAX. When used this way with a digital camera, you can take advantage of PocketWizard’s HyperSync Technology that allows up to 1/500th of a second camera sync with many camera/strobe set-ups. HyperSync allows you to advance the timing of your flash trigger so that faster than X-sync speeds can be achieved.

Need more speed? Push your ControlTL system beyond 1/500th and go into FP/High-Speed Sync mode automatically. No buttons to press or settings to change other than your shutter speed will give you flash sync all the way to 1/8000th."

Cheers Gaz

While I agree that the way this is written is misleading, if you read what they say carefully, it becomes evident that the old Plus II system does NOT support true HSS. Using a ControlTL transmitter or transceiver with a Plus II receiver only enables HyperSync.

HyperSync != HSS.

To be precise, HyperSync is PocketWizard's method of squeezing a little bit more X-sync speed out of the body. The idea is to transmit a higher flash output but increase the delay between flash trigger and first curtain open. This way, you are using a portion of the flash intensity curve that is flatter. It's hard to explain but suffice it to say that depending on the body, it is possible to gain about 1 stop max faster shutter speed. This has NOTHING to do with High Speed Sync, in which the signal to fire the flash is repeated throughout the entire time the curtains are moving. Since only one timing signal is needed for HyperSync, they are still compatible with this mode. But the Plus II units are incapable of triggering strobes in HSS mode, which requires multiple timing signals in rapid succession.

Again, I absolutely agree that the way that PocketWizard presents this information is confusing and misleading. Even the choice of terminology, I feel, was designed to create confusion.

Notice that when they say "Need more speed? Push your ControlTL system...." ControlTL = Flex/Mini. Plus II is NOT ControlTL. I find it hard to believe PocketWizard choice of wording here was unintentional.

And you wonder why so many people find this stuff hard to understand. The manufacturers do not make it easy to figure it out.

Nov 12, 2009 at 12:19 PM

Kurt Paris
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #15 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

So far i'm leaning away from the PW. - i think i'll skip the first generation of controlTL (flex/mini) and invest in PW when i have a bit more cash and their products are a bit more mature... the idea of having to sock/sheild every flash does not appeal to me in the least.

in the meantime i think i'll get a set of these: Cactus V4 Triggers

seen them in action and they never missed a beat... they should sync at 1/200.. so all i'll be using is the ability to use HSS. And for that i *should* be able to use cable

Nov 12, 2009 at 12:46 PM

cgardner
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #16 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Kurt:

To put this in to perspective you are asking the question in the first place because it appears you wasted your money on cheap radio triggers. As I said, I was just trying to save you some money.

If high-speed sync combined with manual remote control via radio are your primary needs then Radio Poppers would be what I'd recommend. They just relay the Canon optical signals so there is no learning curve. The Pocket Wizard folks are a more reliable company than the RP start-up, but their offering 're-invents the wheel' of Canon wireless and is far more complicated (I've read the manuals) and from reports I've read far less reliable than the RP offering.

FWIW - I think its funny you accuse me of being condescending when you follow up and say things like "i have no interest in the canon system since that forces me to have a flash on the camera (wastes a flash, adds weight and adds no benefit). " Its also unfortunate having to respond to broadsides from the peanut gallery about the use of neutral fill not being "professional". But that's par for the course on the internet.

I've found in the long run tasks are easier when you have many different tools available and can use the one offering the best balance of results and convenience for each job. I learned also its better to buy quality gear than mess around with the FleaBay stuff. Condescending? No. just advice from someone who learned the same way you have that one gets what one pays for.

The reason I traded in my Vivitar flashes for 580ex was because like you I wanted to use the high-speed sync feature of Canon flash so I could shoot with wide apertures outdoors with my Canon camera. I'd been spoiled by previously using a Minolta which has an EVF and no x-sync limit. But when I bought my 580ex flashes I also bought a set of Pocket Wizards on the same order to cover all the bases. But after exploring what the Canons could do I found little need to use the PW, especially indoors. But then I don't try to make them into studio lights. I already had set of studio lights for studio work, and I also don't mind using a flash bracket for location shooting: I find the benefits in lighting IQ outweigh any inconvenience. Works for me. YMMV.

Chuck

Edited on Nov 12, 2009 at 01:20 PM · View previous versions

Nov 12, 2009 at 01:04 PM

Kurt Paris
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #17 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

cgardner wrote:
Kurt:

To put this in to perspective you are asking the question in the first place because it appears you wasted your money on cheap radio triggers. As I said, I was just trying to save you some money.

If high-speed sync combined with manual remote control via radio are your primary needs then Radio Poppers would be what I'd recommend. They just relay the Canon optical signals so there is no learning curve. The Pocket Wizard folks are a more reliable company than the RP start-up, but their offering 're-invents the wheel' of Canon wireless and is far more complicated (I've read the manuals) and from reports I've read far less reliable than the RP offering.

FWIW - I think its funny you accuse me of being condescending when you follow up and say things like "i have no interest in the canon system since that forces me to have a flash on the camera (wastes a flash, adds weight and adds no benefit). " Its also unfortunate having to respond to broadsides from the peanut gallery about the use of neutral fill not being "professional". But that's par for the course on the internet.

I've found in the long run tasks are easier when you have many different tools available and can use the one offering the best balance of results and convenience for each job. I learned also its better to buy quality gear than mess around with the FleaBay stuff. Condescending? No. just advice from someone who learned the same way you have that one gets what one pays for.

The reason I traded in my Vivitar flashes for 580ex was because like you I wanted to use the high-speed sync feature of Canon flash so I could shoot with wide apertures outdoors with my Canon camera. I'd been spoiled by previous using a Minolta which has an EVF and no x-sync limit. But when I bought my 580ex flashes I also bought a set of Pocket Wizards on the same order to cover all the bases. But after exploring what the Canons could do I found little need to use the PW, especially indoors. But I don't try to make them into studio lights. I already had set of studio lights for studio work, and I don't mind using a flash bracket for location shooting. Works for me. YMMV.

Chuck

I have bought crappy triggers (yongnuo something something) and these have kept me happy for over a year, however they are not 100% reliable and they have a disastrous design - they use this hopeless L-Bracket system which tends to come undone, losing the orientation of the flash. They've more than repaid my investment in them but now it is time for them to be replaced.

I dont see why you object to my comment of "i have no interest in the canon system since that forces me to have a flash on the camera (wastes a flash, adds weight and adds no benefit)". I have meddled with the canon system and i dont like it for various reasons. If you feel i owe you an explanation for that i can PM one to you.

"You get what you pay for" is a pretty sweeping remark and not always true. In case of lenses - i fully agree, in case of many other things such as radio triggers (something that many other industries use cheaply) or light modifiers... YMMV.

Nov 12, 2009 at 01:19 PM

cgardner
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #18 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Kurt:

When you ask a specific gear question its always better to put it into the broader context of your goals and how you use the equipment. Absent the context you'll get advice you might find is off the mark. In my experience advising several thousand people on the use of Canon flash I've come to realize that most users don't understand how they actually work. Your reference to "IR" and triggering the Master remotely via radio waved those same red flags. So basically I was asking, "Have you tried to use the system the way its designed to work?"

It wasn't clear you were trying to use hot shoe flash as a substitute for studio lighting. If Canon flash was intended for use with large modifiers it would come with bare bulb, a stand mount on the base, a hole for an umbrella, a speedring attachment and a tethered sensor which could be mounted outside the modifier. Hopefully someday Canon will wake-up and realize that is how people are trying to use their slave flashes and design a dedicated light stand mount slave with those features, but until that happens the bottom line is that Canon flash is not the best tool for "studio" type lighting with large modifiers. Trying to make them work that way is not too different than trying to use cheap radio triggers when more expensive but more reliable tools to do the job are available. Its a path leading to wasting money in the long run.

I don't shoot for hire, and probably use my studio lights less than a dozen time a year for portraits of family and friends, but I like having the right tool for the job available, set up in the next room and available when needed. I've also got the Canons which I use much more because I do more candid-sytle shooting.

My advice is oriented more towards using the Canon flash for what they were designed for: dynamic photojournalist /editorial tasks which is how I've always used hot shoe flash. My advice for anyone wanting to do serious studio work is to buy a set of studio lights. Thanks to the availability of low cost battery/inverter units like the Vagabond its possible use studio gear anywhere. The choice between using that better tool for the job or hot shoe becomes one of compromising quality for convenience, or trying to do the job on the cheap.

I really don't think it unreasonable for anyone wanting to do photography professionally, which I did for a few years, to also have both sets of tools. If a "pro" can't afford both then they might want to do a reality check on photography as a livelihood, or the style of shooting they want to specialize in: thousands of wedding photographers have made a good living with nothing more than a pair of hot shoe flashes

Chuck

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:01 PM

wickerprints
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #19 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Kurt Paris wrote:
So far i'm leaning away from the PW. - i think i'll skip the first generation of controlTL (flex/mini) and invest in PW when i have a bit more cash and their products are a bit more mature... the idea of having to sock/sheild every flash does not appeal to me in the least.

in the meantime i think i'll get a set of these: Cactus V4 Triggers

seen them in action and they never missed a beat... they should sync at 1/200.. so all i'll be using is the ability to use HSS. And for that i *should* be able to use cable

I gotta tell you, the Cactus are hit and miss from what I've heard. Some people think they work fine, others say they are unreliable. But since I personally haven't used them, I can only tell you what I've heard secondhand. Take it for what it's worth.

Also, please do yourself a favor and make *sure* that you get the features you need. Note that triggering at X-sync is not the same as HSS. I am sure you are already aware, but for the benefit of anyone else following along, the X-sync speed is the fastest shutter speed for which two conditions hold: (1) during the exposure, there is an interval of time in which the entire sensor area is exposed to light; and (2) the flash can be timed to activate during this interval. Thus, the faster the shutter curtains are able to travel, the higher the X-sync speed.

Above the X-sync speed, the sensor is always partially obscured at any point during the exposure by one of the two shutter curtains, so light from a flash will only reach one portion of the image. The workaround, which is HSS, is to fire the flash in rapid succession throughout the curtain travel time.

Therefore, just because an RF triggering system is able to sync at the X-sync speed does not mean it is able to trigger the flash multiple times during a HSS exposure. Doing so requires additional coordination between the camera body, transmitter, receiver, and strobe.

I'm super lazy and going to bed soon so presently I can't look up this info for you, but if I were in your position I would check the various manufacturers and find out if true high-speed sync is possible with the triggers they offer. IIRC, the RadioPopper JrX system does support this, but good luck finding some to buy. Honestly, I wish I could just tell you "buy product X and be done with it." But I can't, because it's hard to figure out exactly what the various brands and models actually do, and how they work.

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:49 PM

Kurt Paris
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #20 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

ebay triggers in general arent amazing, the cactus V2 are probably the better ones out there. Now they released the V4s which are getting great reviews - and they also have a much more convenient construction layout.

with the 5dmk2 from what i've seen they are clean at up to 1/160, and get a tiny unsynced line at the bottom at 1/200 of a sec. The pocket wizards (using hypersync) are 100% clean at up to 1/200 with tiny lines on top and bottom of 1/250. Above that: you're screwed with the cactus, and you have to use HSS with the PW

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:55 PM

Garry Burton
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #21 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Kurt Paris wrote:
ebay triggers in general arent amazing, the cactus V2 are probably the better ones out there. Now they released the V4s which are getting great reviews - and they also have a much more convenient construction layout.

with the 5dmk2 from what i've seen they are clean at up to 1/160, and get a tiny unsynced line at the bottom at 1/200 of a sec. The pocket wizards (using hypersync) are 100% clean at up to 1/200 with tiny lines on top and bottom of 1/250. Above that: you're screwed with the cactus, and you have to use HSS with the PW

I've seen cybersyncs and they do look interesting, radiopoppers i'm not too fond of since they still need the IR system to work anyway. Skyports dont seem to support HSS anyway... Any other major brands i'm not mentioning?

Kurt,
the V4s are way better than the earlier versions. We are using them for our photographers in a Real Estate enviroment.
Still issues with range and obstructions interferring with the signal and if you're in a warehouse with bar code readers, you'll get a ton of false triggers.

Although the V4s have a metal HS mount and a HS mount on top for your speedlight to get around needing sync leads. The internal construction is all plastic. Our higher use photographers (rough handlers...) have broken the receivers and in the long run, I envisage broken speedlights. I'd still use the receivers with a sync lead if it was my gear and a sturdier stand/mount.

The PWs are more reliable, I have the advantage of the CE frequency which appear to effect the speedlight/PWs less than the Yanks.

BUT NO HSS for you, which is your core query, yes??
Looks like you've done plenty of testing and reading up.
K Stecker on the forum seems to have sorted out most of the issues with the Mini/Flex PWs if you track down his posts.

@wickerprints,

Yes the PW info' is misleading and after reading it a few hundred times, I now see the error of my ways. It does seem that the copy is written in such a way to "Suck one in".

Now that the Alien Bs are becoming available in Oz and the Vagabond packs. I'm going to stop mucking about with HSS to beat the sun and spend the same money I would of on Flexes, on 1600s and win the sun fight that way.

STILL, I do love the compactness of speedlights and battery packs.

Anyhoot, getting off topic and rambling.

Goodluck Kurt and for what it's worth, these are all shot with speedlights
http://www.gazpixs.com.au/galleries/Garry%20Burton%20-%20Jewellery/index.html

http://www.gazpixs.com.au/galleries/Garry%20Burton%20-%20Various/index.html

http://www.gazpixs.com.au/galleries/Garry%20Burton%20-%20Furniture/index.html

http://www.gazpixs.com.au/galleries/Garry%20Burton%20-%20Ties/index.html

Nov 13, 2009 at 10:33 PM

Michael White
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #22 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Kurt, from my understanding and limited use of the tt5 Flex PWs. They will only sync the flash attached to the receiver and the master but IIRC you do not need a master on camera for HSS use only. But, to use them just as a trigger you do not need the tt5s you can do that with the regular PW units. THat has been done for years and the Multimax can also do the HSS. I have been able to use the ST-E2 on the camera and a 580ex2 on a remote tt5/flex to trigger other Canon flashes using the Canon optical system before I had enough flex units for all my flashes. But, what Chuck was doing is trying to explain that you may be able to do what you want without spending more money. Even if you use a mini pocket wizard you will still need a ST-E2 or a Canon Flash acting in the master role to control the other units for the master flash. They system doesn't have any way to communicate the data back to the camera from a remote flash. What Chuck was also getting at was learn to use the tools you have before throwing something else in to the mix. That way when you have problems you know what is causing them.

Nov 14, 2009 at 02:47 AM

cordellwillis
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #23 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Nov 14, 2009 at 03:59 AM

Two23
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #24 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

shoebox9 wrote:
Do any of the worlds top pros use a flash on their camera for images they care about? (None I've yet come across.)

.

Uh, actually yes. Wedding photographers often will, especially for reception candids. Journalists such as Nachtwey does. Joe McNally will use an SB-900 in the hotshoe when it suits him. One of the world's leading bird photographers, Arthur Morris, does (often with a Better Beamer attached.) So yes, many if not most top photographers will use a flash on their camera when it suits them. I would too, but haven't found a way to mount a White Lightning X3200 to the top of my D300. Maybe it would be more like mounting the D300 on an X3200.

I personally would not buy Pocket Wizards. The system is still buggy according the posts I read. I've gone wth CyberSyncs since I am triggering both monolights and SB flash. The CyberSyncs are 100% reliable and half the cost of PW. In addition to JrX, there is a new trigger that is coming out that supports iTTL. It's the Pixel TR-331, a third generation Poverty Wizard that is sounding very good. In addition to CyberSyncs, there is an eBay trigger that has received excellent reviews. It's reliable out to about 100 ft. Product is the now well known RF-602. Very inexpensive, dumb trigger system.

I do agree with above post that first you should think through exactly what it is you want to do, and make sure what you have won't do it. Radio triggers are a "gateway" drug and before you know it you've spent many thousands of dollars on a lighting system. Don't ask me how I know this.

Kent in SD

Nov 14, 2009 at 04:40 AM

BubbaJon
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #25 · PW Flex/Mini + Canon IR

Michael White wrote:
Kurt, from my understanding and limited use of the tt5 Flex PWs. They will only sync the flash attached to the receiver and the master but IIRC you do not need a master on camera for HSS use only. But, to use them just as a trigger you do not need the tt5s you can do that with the regular PW units. THat has been done for years and the Multimax can also do the HSS. I have been able to use the ST-E2 on the camera and a 580ex2 on a remote tt5/flex to trigger other Canon flashes using the Canon optical system before I had enough flex units for all my flashes. But, what Chuck was doing is trying to explain that you may be able to do what you want without spending more money. Even if you use a mini pocket wizard you will still need a ST-E2 or a Canon Flash acting in the master role to control the other units for the master flash. They system doesn't have any way to communicate the data back to the camera from a remote flash. What Chuck was also getting at was learn to use the tools you have before throwing something else in to the mix. That way when you have problems you know what is causing them.
Exactly - folks act like Chuck got OT when in fact he was trying to save the OP frustration and $$. The original question was what triggers to get since the OP has cheapo unreliable triggers. The original question mentions that the PW flex receivers disable the "IR" (actually visible flashes) and the OP considered that a design flaw. It does in fact show that he has not thought the problem out and does not understand how it all works. If you have a radio receiver on a remote strobe it implies you need a radio transmitter to send signals to be received. The *master* strobe - the one attached to the camera, in this case the Flex transmitter - is responsible for telling the slaves what to do. The OP seems to be thinking that the slaves should somehow be capable of spreading the control signals with their own flashes. Nope - they communicate solely with the master - not any other slaves. So the whole paradigm as understood by the OP is wrong.
If in fact he does not want or use ETTL then why in hell spend $$$ on ETTL strobes? Plenty of powerful cheap strobes that can be used manually. Anyway - Chuck should know by now that no good deed goes unpunished...
regards,
Jon

Nov 15, 2009 at 03:26 PM


FM Forums \| Lighting & Studio Techniques \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 end