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Archive 2009 · What does fluorite actually do?
  
 
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #1 · What does fluorite actually do?


Hi everyone,

I am doing a physics project on why fluorite is used in Canon's high performance super-telephoto lenses but I need to clarify somethings before I write it up.

- Is fluorite an aspherical element and are they connected in any way?
- Can someone explain extraordinary partial dispersion to me, I looked on canon's EF Lens III pdf and couldn't understand exactly what it meant?
- Are DO elements made of fluorite?
- Is the fluorite used in Canon's S T Lenses CaF2, and if so will the atomic structure I find on wikipedia and such be identical to that of the crystals that Canon implement in their elements?

Please help,

Fred

Nov 08, 2009 at 02:12 PM
Dawei Ye
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p.1 #2 · What does fluorite actually do?


er...not too sure but this is what I think is correct:

Aspheric elements refer to how they are shaped (i.e. their surface is not spherical). These would need to be ground using a precise process.

CaF2 is the chemical composition, fluorite is the crystals

It's just like how NaCl is the chemical composition of "salt' (kind of)

Nov 08, 2009 at 02:25 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #3 · What does fluorite actually do?


Am I right in assuming that fluorite elements are not pure crystalline, or are they?

So a fluorite element does not have to be aspherical? Actually, looking at the element combinations in Canon's lenses, would having an aspherical lens in a Super-telephoto be so difficult to manufacture because of the fact that it would require such small differences from a spherical element that they don't use it, because the current manufacture processes would bring adverse effects to the lens' performance?

I'm assuming then that fluorite is separate to Aspherical elements, but the combination could, in theory, produce the better results than just fluorite alone.

I think I understand extraordinary partial dispersion now - is this just the reduction of the refractive index at the outer points of the element to reduce the difference between the effective focal lengths of the red, green and blue light rays, and thus reduce chromatic aberration especially at the corners, and induce a higher degree of visual sharpness?

So, if I research and write about the structure of CaF2, am I also then talking about Fluorite, as they are the same thing.

Although not as important, I would still like to know if DO elements are also fluorite.

Thanks for your quick reply.

Nov 08, 2009 at 02:34 PM
dirb9
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p.1 #4 · What does fluorite actually do?


A fluorite element could be aspherical. The dispersion of an element is related to what material it is made from, not how it is ground.

The wikipedia article on dispersion gives an idea of what dispersion is. Fluorite helps focus all the wavelengths of visible light at the same point, or much closer to it than otherwise possible with traditional optical glass. Focusing all the wavelengths at the same point helps reduce image deficiencies such as chromatic aberration, as well as reducing the need for the IR focusing mark, or eliminating it. Regular window glass, if ground into the lens, wouldn't be able to focus all colors at the same point. For that example, green might be in focus at the focus plane at the imaging device, blue light might be focused say .4mm behind the image plane and red .6mm in front! Low dispersion elements, such as fluorite help significantly reduce this.

DO elements are made of normal optical glass (which is different than, say window glass); it is two pieces cemented together, they have a small pattern similar to a Fresnel lens.

The fluorite is indeed CaF2, Canon uses artificially grown fluorite crystals, and are one of the only companies that does so.

Edit: I guess I got distracted for a while!
AFAIK, the fluorite lenses Canon uses are artificially grown crystals. IIRC, I remember reading at some point that Canon's fluorite elements are a single crystal, though don't take my word for it. I'd bet if you contacted Canon they could tell you more details, within limits of trade secrets. It does, as you mentioned, significantly help with chromatic aberration.

For your second question, if I understand correctly: While aspherical lenses can improve lens performance, they are expensive, and if the lens designer decides that they aren't need to get satisfactory image quality, then they are not used. An elements' radius is determined in the design phase, simply making an element aspherical randomly wouldn't help the performance of the lens, unless the aspheric element it was factored into the design at the beginning of the design process.

Nov 08, 2009 at 02:42 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #5 · What does fluorite actually do?


Does the fact that they are artificially grown affect the structure at all?

What exactly is standard optical glass made of, for my research?



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:04 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #6 · What does fluorite actually do?


The answer to the "what does flourite really do" question is: Allows the manufacturer to quadruple the price of the lens. :-)

Nov 08, 2009 at 03:25 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #7 · What does fluorite actually do?


Apart from that obviously That is a social/economic issue I will write about in my piece don't worry about that.

Nov 08, 2009 at 03:28 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #8 · What does fluorite actually do?


Does anyone know in terms of its atomic structure why it allows such a high proportion of light through at 157nm, and why it has such a low refractive index?



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:29 PM
kakomu
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p.1 #9 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
Does anyone know in terms of its atomic structure why it allows such a high proportion of light through at 157nm, and why it has such a low refractive index?


If this is a school project, your school probably has loads of research resources at your disposal. My high school had some online resources and my college gave me access to resources like InfoTrac and Lexis Nexis, not to mention a bunch of libraries.

You'd be much better off going to a chemistry library and doing your research there. It's not like you can quote internet chatter on a forum as a source of your project.

As an aside, Canon has some information on its own websites:
Technical Room

Fluorite and UD Glass

Straight from the horse's mouth is certainly better than internet chatter.

Edited on Nov 08, 2009 at 03:55 PM · View previous versions


Nov 08, 2009 at 03:45 PM
BigPurpleOne
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p.1 #10 · What does fluorite actually do?


Your question actually got me thinking and searching I found this link

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/infobank/lenses/fluorite_aspherical_and_ud_lenses.do

Hope it helps... it certainly helped me to understand a little more about why my hobby is so expensive, now if I can explain it to the minister for war and finance

Nov 08, 2009 at 03:48 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #11 · What does fluorite actually do?


It is a presentation rather than a written piece so sources are not of as much importance.

I will back it up with structural and optical evidence, but I need to know the links to be able to say so.



Nov 08, 2009 at 03:54 PM
dirb9
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p.1 #12 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
Does the fact that they are artificially grown affect the structure at all?

What exactly is standard optical glass made of, for my research?



Optical glass is generally a blend of many different elements at precise amounts to get the proper refractive index for a given lens. One of the keys is that there isn't any iron. If you look at a piece of regular glass from the side, it looks green. This is from excess iron in the glass. Beyond that, all glass is mainly silica (except for special quartz crystal glass for IR/UV photography), with lead (phased out), boron, fluorine, potassium, tantalum, or many other elements. Ohara, Schott, and Hoya are the main companies for glass, you could contact them for more details. They usually also put their glass catalogs online, and I'd bet you could contact them for information about why certain elements are used. FYI, Ohara is what Canon uses for glass. I wouldn't think the fluorite being artificially grown would affect its structure, beyond making it even throughout, though I'd suggest contacting Canon, once again, and asking to be put in contact with an engineer. As for why it transmits at certain wavelengths, a physicist would be the best resource. I know the University of Rochester has an optics division.

Nov 08, 2009 at 04:05 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #13 · What does fluorite actually do?


On that catalog from Ohara, is Fluorite S-FPL51, 52, or 53?
And which one would be the standard optical glass used by Canon, or are you saying this differs and thus you can't give a specific value?
To be honest, I'm having trouble what all that means.

How would you, in as simple English as possible, link the crystalline hexagonal structure of Fluorite to its optical properties?

Nov 08, 2009 at 04:26 PM
 



tchoi
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p.1 #14 · What does fluorite actually do?


When I was an undergrad at U of R 30 years ago, the place to go for chemistry and physics of photography was RIT, Rochester Institute of Technology. It was a long time ago, but back then I was really interested in making my own film and paper developers, and that's where all the photochemists were.

Nov 08, 2009 at 04:30 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #15 · What does fluorite actually do?


Is there a way to connect its optical and mechanical properties at an A-Level standard?

Nov 08, 2009 at 04:42 PM
molson
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p.1 #16 · What does fluorite actually do?


On a vaguely related topic, we used to visit this old mine site and pick up fluorite crystals when we were kids...

http://www.mindat.org/loc-484.html

There are lots of cool photos of the natural CaF2 crystals on that site, too...

Nov 08, 2009 at 05:39 PM
wimg
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p.1 #17 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
On that catalog from Ohara, is Fluorite S-FPL51, 52, or 53?
And which one would be the standard optical glass used by Canon, or are you saying this differs and thus you can't give a specific value?
To be honest, I'm having trouble what all that means.

How would you, in as simple English as possible, link the crystalline hexagonal structure of Fluorite to its optical properties?

Fluorite is not hexagonal, it is isometric, which under normal conditions means cubic, although octagonal is common too, and occasionally occurs as dodecahedral shapes (12 surfaces).

The fact that it is isometric makes it useful for optical use: this implies that the refractive index is equal in all directions of the crystal lattice. This is also why glass is used in optics: glass is an (under)cooled liquid and behaves isometric as a result, too, but in this case it is not crystalline at all. This is what the crystalline lattice links to its optical use; it could not be used if it wasn't isometric, as you would not be able to predict or calculate the results from refraction and reflection.

The colour it shows most predominatly is like caused by the size of the crystal lattice, the distance between the atoms in the lattice IOW. Furthermore, it got its name from being fluorescent (or maybe the other way around). By heating fluorite, it becomes fluorescent with a green tinge of light, likely the same band of light you mentioned.

A lens is made of several types of glass with different properties, so it is impossible to say which specific values are used. Each individual piece of glass used in a lens has its own refractive index. This is done in order to eliminate different optical aberrations introduced by the overall lens design and the ones introduced by other lens elements. IOW, a similar reason as to why fluorite is used.

As others mentioned, it has very low dispersion, which means that it doesn't have strongly different refraction indices for different wavelengths of light like f.e. glass. IOW, it doesn't show the rainbow spectrum as clearly or strongly as you get with white light refracted by a glass prism. This is very advantageous for lens design, as the different wavelengths of light will focus more closely at the focal point of the lens than with ordinary glass, or even most optical glass types.

A disadvantage is that the refractive index is quite low, which means that its use is somewhat limited. Long lenses or telelenses benefit the most in this regard, but then, they need it most because the focusing points of different wavelengths due to the large FLs show here the largest separation in absolute terms, and hence the least convergence, resulting in less sharp images. Fluorite helps prevent this.

Fluorite has a few disadvantages, as it is inherently less stable than glass elements, due to humidity f.e; as a result it needs to be sealed in, which is easier to achieve in long lenses, with a lot of space, rather than in WA lenses with very little space and a lot of elements. Furthermore, it expands and contracts much more than glass, changing the optical properties under extreme temperature variations, be it temporarily. This is supposedly the reason why Canon's long lenses are white or cream rather than black: white reflects heat and light, black absorbs it, contributing to higher temperature fluctuations in a black barrel compared to a barrel painted white (or cream).

Although it would probably be possible to create aspherical lens elements from fluorite, I suspect that due to fluorite's relative softness and brittleness, this is very, very difficult, and hence the reason why we haven't seen any Canon lenses with aspherical fluorite lenses so far. I don't expect this to change. Growing the crystals required to make lens elements from, takes 1 to 2 years, and making a spherical lens is a major operation in the first place, let alone an aspherical one. I reckon it would be 10X as expensive, if not more, to make an aspherical lens element from fluorite than it is to make a spherical one, and it would have to be made like a precision aspherical lens; it can't be moulded for starters (it is a crystal, not an undercooled liquid), and the grinding and polishing process would be a lot slower than with glass aspherical lenses to prevent breaking, splitting, etc.

For fluorite to be used in optics, it has to be optically pure, and this is something you don't find in nature, normally. In the past, some lens elements used in (expensive) microscopes were made from naturally occurring fluorite, but these generally are very, very small, nothing like the big plates used in some of the Canon lenses.

AFAIK, Canon grows and grinds their own fluorite, and I don't think they have outsourced this part of the operation to a third party optical glass manufacturer. Also AFAIK, Canon is the only company in the world being able to grow the very large crystals required for their telelenses, and I do think they will keep their secret of success a secret for a long time to come.

Anyway, HTH, kind regards, Wim
(former geologist, with a little, very little, knowledge of mineralogy and crystallography)

Nov 08, 2009 at 06:03 PM
wickerprints
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p.1 #18 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fluorite exhibits what is called extraordinary dispersion. It is not merely a low dispersion material.

Dispersion is the phenomenon in which the index of refraction changes as a function of wavelength. A high dispersion optical element will separate the visible wavelengths of light into its components more than a low dispersion element. Every optical material exhibits dispersion to some degree. If dispersion is not corrected for, the result is chromatic aberration.

An aspherical lens, on the other hand, is designed to correct spherical aberration, which is not a function of wavelength.

Traditionally, optical engineers have used different types of glass (i.e., glass doped with different chemical elements) such as 'crown' and 'flint' glass to correct for dispersion, as they have different refractive properties. By pairing a crown and flint element together, one creates what is called an achromatic doublet. Using this method, it is possible to correct chromatic aberration for two wavelengths of light, for exmaple red and blue. However, green wavelengths still would not be precisely corrected.

This is where fluorite comes in. Fluorite, as was mentioned, exhibits extraordinary dispersion. In particular, it preferentially refracts shorter wavelengths of light to a greater degree than longer wavelengths; that is to say, it behaves like a low dispersion material for the red-green spectrum, and a high dispersion material for the blue-violet spectrum. Using this property, it is now possible to combine fluorite with crown and flint glass to achieve correction at three wavelengths, which we would now call apochromatic behavior.

The problem of fluorite is that it is not amorphous silica like glass, but a crystal with a lattice structure. Therefore it must be grown and then ground. It cannot be cast into a mold. Fluorite also has a high coefficient of thermal expansion relative to glass, and as others have already mentioned, this means it will expand when heated and contract when cooled, leading to undesirable mechanical and optical behavior in lenses. All of these drawbacks lead to fluorite's prohibitive cost, and optical engineers have found other ways to design apochromat lenses through the use of their own proprietary formulations of optical glass.

In conclusion, I suggest you search about the following terms, and read Canon's Lens Work III book, in which much of these concepts are further explained:

Abbe number
Achromat
Amorphous silica
Apochromat
Chromatic aberration
Crown glass
Coefficient of expansion
Dispersion
Flint glass
Fluorite
Index of refraction
Spherical aberration

Nov 08, 2009 at 06:37 PM
matanuska
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p.1 #19 · What does fluorite actually do?


Does Canon still make lenses with CaF2 elements? In addition to everything that has been said before, I understand the manufacturing process of CaF2 is extremely toxic and environmentally unfriendly. Most (if not all) of the Japanese telescope makers phased out Flourite in their telescope objectives a few years ago - the recent technological advances in ED and UD glass made this possible. For example, I own a Flourite Doublet Apochromat refracting telescope, but shortly after buying it (back in 05) the design was replaced by a UD Triplet.

Nov 08, 2009 at 06:59 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #20 · What does fluorite actually do?


Oh yes. All of Canon's super telephoto lenses above and including 200mm that have large apertures utilise fluorite elements, the 1200mm F5.6 utilising 2.

Nov 08, 2009 at 07:08 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #21 · What does fluorite actually do?



If this is a school project, your school probably has loads of research resources at your disposal..


As one who teaches (college), if this is a class project I'd also add that "discussion in the FM forum" is not likely to pass muster as a bibliography entry. :-)

Fred Lindsey wrote:
It is a presentation rather than a written piece so sources are not of as much importance.


Uh, that is not the way it usually works... Perhaps you will not be asked to provide written sources (if so, I'd have a few words with your teacher...) but the validity of your references is still critical.

Dan

Nov 08, 2009 at 07:11 PM
Fred Lindsey
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p.1 #22 · What does fluorite actually do?


We have to provide a short bibliography (general sources (Wikipedia, Canon Lens Book III, cpn.canon-europe.com, etc.) on the last slide.

I have been told (through an email in the last hour or so) that I don't have to focus on the mechanical structure too much because this is not relevant to its use, apart from its softness being a hinderence in the manufacture process leading to a high price which is an economic issue.

I have also been told that I do have to try to link the optical properties to the microstructure.

Nov 08, 2009 at 07:49 PM
kakomu
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p.1 #23 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
We have to provide a short bibliography (general sources (Wikipedia, Canon Lens Book III, cpn.canon-europe.com, etc.) on the last slide.

I have been told (through an email in the last hour or so) that I don't have to focus on the mechanical structure too much because this is not relevant to its use, apart from its softness being a hinderence in the manufacture process leading to a high price which is an economic issue.

I have also been told that I do have to try to link the optical properties to the microstructure.


Wikipedia is rarely ever considered a good source in any academic setting. Also, the Canon Lens Book is more promotional than scientific. You'll probably want to find at least ONE book on either:

A) Chemistry
B) Geology
C) Optics
D) Lens design

Nov 08, 2009 at 08:00 PM
Lars Johnsson
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p.1 #24 · What does fluorite actually do?


Fred Lindsey wrote:
Oh yes. All of Canon's super telephoto lenses above and including 200mm that have large apertures utilise fluorite elements, the 1200mm F5.6 utilising 2.


The 800 also has two really large fluorite elements. And the
70-200/4
70-200/4 IS
100-400

Nov 08, 2009 at 08:02 PM
John H Smith
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p.1 #25 · What does fluorite actually do?


Several of the L series 'big white lenses' have fluorite elements. (300 f2.8, 400 f2.8, 400 f4 DO, 500 f4, 600 f4, 100-400 L)

Fluorite is used to compensate for the limitations of optical glass in long focal length lenses in terms of chromatic aberation. A combination of fluorite and glass elements is stated to effectively eliminate chromatic aberation accross the visible spectrum. It is also stated that overall length of the lens can be reduced.

Best explanation I have seen is in the canon book 'EF lenswork IIII'

Nov 08, 2009 at 08:03 PM




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