I don't want to start a flame war here but..... Yesterday I was privileged to go to a Joe McNally lighting workshop at the LA Convention Center. Joe is a Nikon shooter and quite proud of it BTW. I've had Nikon film cameras back in the day and don't really deal too much with the Canon vs. Nikon battles these days. I shoot Canon gear, and have quite a bit of it, but was disappointed with how it compares to Nikon with regards to flash units. Joe was demonstrating how he uses small flash units (Nikon 800's and 900's) to get studio quality lighting quality. The thing I was most impressed with though, was how great the Nikon system controls groupings of slaved flashes. He was controlling exposure on 3 separate flash groupings directly from the camera (or flash/controller). I took out my Canon 580EX and my STE2 and was a bit disappointed in the capabilities of the Canon gear. With the Nikon stuff he was able to dial in +/- up to 3 stops in 1/3 increments in each grouping. With my Canon stuff I'm limited to an A/B ratio with one always at full power and the other a ratio (i.e. 2:1, 3:1, 1:2, 1:3, etc.). I left the workshop with a healthy dose of respect, and envy, for the Nikon flash system. I've always known they were good but this was really a revelation. I don't think it's enough to make me switch all my gear, but it left me wondering if and when Canon will ever come out with anything comparable. I know I could always use manual units and my radio slaves but it's so convenient to be able to control all the groupings from the camera.
Anyone know if Canon has an upgrade for their flash systems in the pipe?
I think the current Canon system will do just about anything the Nikon system will do, but their instruction manuals for the flash units leave a lot to be desired.
The ST-E2 limits you to two groups of flashes (A and B) but if you use a 580EX II as a master, you can set +/- 3 stops of compensation (in 1/3 EV increments) on the master (A), you can set flashes in group B relative to A over a range of +/- three stops (8:1 to 1:8 ratio) plus you can set flashes in Group C separately over a range of +/- 3 stops in 1/3 EV increments.
Once I got my head around Canon's confusing nomenclature, I actually found the 580EX and 580EXII flash units a little easier to work with than the SB-800's, since the 580EX's have a handy slave/master switch - much easier than trying to remember how to navigate through Nikon's bizarre menu system on the SB-600 and SB-800. I now use one 580EX II for on-camera flash, and I have two 580EX's for slaves.
I don't use slave flashes enough to be able to teach someone else how to use them, but Chuck Gardner has a wealth of info about Canon strobes on his web site: http://super.nova.org/DPR/
I would agree with Molson's statements. I own and use both Nikon and Canon and with some minor exceptions they will do the same job. Finding out how it works and how to set it up, that is a different issue. Canon reduced a simple problem to it's most baffling form.
Speaking of Star Wars - I've noticed that Canon Speedlites produce a sweet bluish or greenish light, which is very natural, pleasant and ecologically sound. OTOH, Nikon Speedlights emit vile streaks of red or purple anguish. You choose.
Well, I'm glad to hear that people think that Canon's flash system works. It is rather complicated compared to simply dialing in your +/- on the commander of Nikon's system. I'll have to do some reading on Master Yoda's site! Got to get to know my gear better!
I think the 7D is similar to the Nikon system in operation, and that Canon was going to use that system on new Canons. So the $250 STE-2 is a thing of the past maybe, and hopefully Canonites will have the ratio feature available with other methods.
jamach wrote:
I think the 7D is similar to the Nikon system in operation, and that Canon was going to use that system on new Canons. So the $250 STE-2 is a thing of the past maybe, and hopefully Canonites will have the ratio feature available with other methods.
akivisuals wrote:
I don't want to start a flame war here but..... Yesterday I was privileged to go to a Joe McNally lighting workshop at the LA Convention Center. Joe is a Nikon shooter and quite proud of it BTW. I've had Nikon film cameras back in the day and don't really deal too much with the Canon vs. Nikon battles these days. I shoot Canon gear, and have quite a bit of it, but was disappointed with how it compares to Nikon with regards to flash units. Joe was demonstrating how he uses small flash units (Nikon 800's and 900's) to get studio quality lighting quality. The thing I was most impressed with though, was how great the Nikon system controls groupings of slaved flashes. He was controlling exposure on 3 separate flash groupings directly from the camera (or flash/controller). I took out my Canon 580EX and my STE2 and was a bit disappointed in the capabilities of the Canon gear. With the Nikon stuff he was able to dial in +/- up to 3 stops in 1/3 increments in each grouping. With my Canon stuff I'm limited to an A/B ratio with one always at full power and the other a ratio (i.e. 2:1, 3:1, 1:2, 1:3, etc.). I left the workshop with a healthy dose of respect, and envy, for the Nikon flash system. I've always known they were good but this was really a revelation. I don't think it's enough to make me switch all my gear, but it left me wondering if and when Canon will ever come out with anything comparable. I know I could always use manual units and my radio slaves but it's so convenient to be able to control all the groupings from the camera.
Anyone know if Canon has an upgrade for their flash systems in the pipe?...Show more →
I was at the workshop and had a similar response to my 580 ex's... I've been using them in manual-only for so long I forgot they could do ettl. Then when I started trying to reconstruct how Joe was managing his strobes I remembered why. I have rededicated myself to learning how to use their entire feature set - if only to go back to manual later
On another note - after the first couple of hours of the workshop I was ready to sell my profotos and buy 8 more 580's but when he pulled out the big lights at the end and I saw the difference in the quality of light I remembered why I love them so!
Yeah, it was inspiring what he was able to do with his flashes, but if you're going to take the time and effort to set up that many flash units then why not go all out with some monolights. I'm a wedding shooter and don't have the time or desire to drag around a bunch of heavy lightstands, double diffuse everything, etc. Plus I don't really want to drop $3500 in a bunch of 580's. I did love how he worked though. Not mechanical at all but really just wanted to dial in what looks good.
The "brains" of the system controlling the flash is the camera metering system and that's where Nikon appears to do a better job than Canon, especially on the bodies with only 35 metering zones on the viewfinder. The zones are just too large to detect small objects and light entering the eye piece of the viewfinder can affect exposure readings because metering is done off the viewfinder. I look forward to the day when I can buy a Canon body with an EVF because EVF cameras meter by dumping and reading the sensor 40 or so times a second and can detect clipping down to the pixel level. My wife's Panasonic P&S does a better job at automatic exposure than my 20D or 50D for that reason. There also is no x-sync on a EVF camera either
The ST-E2 is the weak link of the Canon system. Its obsolete and long overdue for replacement, but probably will not be updated because of the recent move on the 7D to make the camera flash a "Master" commander. The range of ST-E2 sucks and it only does ETTL ratios and only for two groups A:B.
If you use a 550ex /580ex/580exII or 7D as Master it is possible to control three groups A:B and C in ETTL ratio or manual mode. It sends commands via visible pre-flashes from the main flash head and has a much greater range than the ST-E2 or the build-in flash on the 7D.
In ETTL A:B sets the foreground lighting and C is intended only as background lighting as in this shot because C is metered separately and set relative to the A:B output:
A:B is set using a ratio scale, then C is balanced to A&B with a separate Group C FEC adjustment.
In ETTL mode lighting is quite simple. First dial in the ratio based on what tone you want the shadows. Then when shooting monitor the highlights with the overexposure warning - which shows when and where highlights are clipping - and adjust FEC as you shoot and the scene content changes to keep the highlights just below clipping. The oft maligned white towel is simply an aid when shooting portraits where there is no white clothing to make it easy to see when highlight clipping is occurring. The red channel in skin and the texture in the towel clip at the same time. Keep the towel below clipping and you get perfect skin exposure, simple as that. Also note how the range of the scene fits the sensor perfectly per the histogram. Get detail in both ends and the middle falls into place automatically because the photographic process is engineered to produce a linear response. Its just a matter of fitting the scene contrast to the range of the sensor.
(That was shot in M mode, which I use for location portraits)
Canon ETTL ratios are not the same as studio Highlight:Shadow ratios on a face. Discovering what the various ratios look like is a matter of testing. Here's the test I did with my 580ex flashes when I first got them...
The Master (A) is on a flash bracket illuminating both sides of the binder, with the Slave (B) just hitting the right side. What impressed me initially in the test and still does is how after first dialing in the FEC with the ratio set at 1:1 the exposure of the highlights stayed consistent as I just flipped through the other ratios. There isn't much difference between 8:1 and 2:1 because A is the fill and with those settings it overpowers the key light which overlaps it. When shooting I typically start at 1:4 which makes it easy to see the modeling, then adjust ratio up or down as needed after setting FEC to get the level of softness I want in the lighting ratio.
Like any TTL system changes in scene reflectance affect the flash exposure. After testing all the metering modes I found evaluative to yield the best results when combined with my use of the highlight clipping warning. Evaluative takes 35 or 63 "spot" readings (depending on body) and compares ambient to pre-flash. Basically it looks for "holes" in the ambient pattern to fill. It would see a back lit person like this...
The metering can deduce there is person in the foreground creating a "hole" in the ambient pattern. Here's an actual example... Backlit scene exposed to keep the highlights below clipping in the notorious white towel on the test target (standing in for the naked woman who would be otherwise wearing the towel on her head in the shot)...
The evaluative metering figures out how to "fill the hole" and make the foreground exposure correct. It looks a bit over exposed, but the target in the foreground is actually matching the sensor range perfectly... http://super.nova.org/TP/DR_FillHisto.jpg
I used manual flash with Vivitars for many years and Canon works the same in M mode, but with much more convenience. There's no metering involved so A, B and C can be used in any role with power set remotely from the 580ex Master.
Another part of the problem using ETTL and flash in general is that many people just don't understand how flash works. Regardless of how the power is regulated it will only create optimally exposed highlights at a single distance from the flash at any given power level, and will fall off 2 stops each time that distance is doubled. That means flash shots much be composed with what is most important closest to the flash with everything needing correct exposure the same distance from the flash. That's true of manual flash, ETTL, or studio lights.
ETTL mode reacts more to the closer objects because they reflect more pre-flash. So if shooting the family around the dinner table, if the white table cloth is closer to the camera than the faces the faces will be under-exposed because the metering reacts to the closer tablecloth. When one understand how flash works they just don't compose flash shots that way. FEL and spot metering can be used to correctly expose the faces, but that will not suspend the laws of physics and prevent the table cloth in foreground from being overexposed.
ETTL provides no feedback on power level actually used. If using bounce or modifiers its easy to reach 100% capacity and not realize it. If shooting a 50% capacity adding +1 FEC will max out the flash. +2 or +3 will do nothing because there is no more power to dial in. Canon flash has a "quick flash" mode that will fire the flash when its only 1/6th to 1/2 charged. If you are in the habit of shooting rapidly and get progressively underexposed shots the problem isn't the metering its the fact you are shooting faster than the flash can recharge.
Outdoors overlapping flash and ambient highlights does reduce contrast (the primary reason for adding flash) because it will hit the highlights and shadows at the same time. To be effective flash needs to be able to lift the shadow side of the ambient light independently: the sun needs to be used as back-rim light with the flash "filling the hole" the stuff in the foreground makes in it. Once that is understood it is easier to use flash effectively to create natural looking lighting outdoors.
The Canon flash system is what it is. I just learned to deal with it after using manual flash for 30 years.
I was a Nikon film shooter for many years with several cameras. I didn't switch to Canon for digital because of the flash system, but because I thought the image quality of its CMOS sensors and lenses were better at the time. The flash system just came as part of the package. I used my 20D with my Vivitar 285HVs for a year before buying the 580ex, and bought them primarily for the high-speed sync capability outdoors. Its silly to buy $4,000 worth of fast lenses then be forced by x-sync to shoot at f/11.
I had just as much trouble as everyone else until I figured out how evaluative metering worked and started to set FEC per the clipping warning. Do it that way and it really doesn't matter what metering mode is used. Regardless of metering mode the first shot of any new scene is seldom perfectly exposed, but its just a matter of being able to interpret the feedback in the clipping warning and histogram to be able to dial in the amount of EC and FEC to make the second one perfect. I'm an old dog, but for me the new tools are the best trick around and I use them to best advantage to make the job easier.
The fundamental dilemma of exposure is that many scene contrast exceeds the range of the sensor requiring the metering system to make a decision what part of the scene to expose correctly. Put a white cat and a black cat together in a sunny window. The camera can't expose everything correctly so it guesses where to peg the exposure. Then its up to the photographer to decide whether he wants the white cat, the black cat or the scene outside the window correctly exposed by overriding the camera's guess.
Manual, ETTL? The problem is the same. A big part of the solution to the dilemma of the scene fitting the sensor is learning to using two flashes, indoors and out, to change the scene contrast. Indoors its done by using even fill and overlapping the key light on top. Outdoors its done by shooting into the shadows of the ambient, then using the two flashes on the shady side the same as they are used indoors with the even flash fill assisting the even fill from the sky and the second off axis "key" flash creating the highlights on top of both. Want natural looking flash lighting? Just pay attention to where the natural light comes from and put the flashes in the same place.
ETTL ratios make lighting nearly idiot-proof: Set the ratio based on the desired shadow tone, then set FEC based on the clipping warning to get the highlights exposed correctly and the parts of the scene lit by the flash will fit the sensor, the definition of correct exposure in the technical sense. If you are using other methods and not getting good results you are probably over-thinking the problem or introducing too many variables.
Will every shot be perfectly exposed the first time? No. But if you think it should be you have unrealistic expectations. The technology just isn't that good yet; it can't read your mind
Thank you, thank you, thank you Chuck! That was a great explanation! I took a bit of time to read some of your articles on your website and they were also very helpful in understanding how the Canon flash works.
I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater in regards to my Canon gear, but understanding how the system works definitely helps me to find out how best to utilize it to get the results I want. I still think the Nikon way of "dialing in" exposure per grouping makes a lot more sense but now that I understand how my Canon works it makes it a bit more palatable. I also didn't realize that the ST-E2 was that bad. I typically would set up my fill and slave like you do on your setups (without the white towel though!).
If you want "dial in" the groups beyond what ETTL ratios does (which is dial in the groups ) the just use M mode and power settings.
Power adjustments in M get you to the same place the same way as FEC in ETTL (changes flash duration and correct exposure eventually) but M mode eliminates the variable of the camera metering each shot differently as the subject moves, so its more consistent shot-to-shot than ETTL, if you allow time for the flash to recycle.
By shooting in M you'll also get a better understanding of when the limits of the flash at any ISO are reached. If the lens is wide open and the result is underexposed at 1/1 its time to raise the ISO. I like to shoot at 1/2 power as my baseline in M mode so the flashes recycle faster, the batteries last longer, and I have a full stop of power in reserve if needed.
Botom line is until we explore the limits of everything our gear can do, we will not understand those limits, exceed them, then blame the equipment when its really not the equipment's fault.
Well, Canon had wireless TTL flash with 3 slave groups years before Nikon did, so Nikon had a nice template from which to make improvements.
Lighting ratios are actually a classic way of thinking about and controlling studio lighting, so if you have some training in this the Canon method is not difficult to understand.
I can't really improve upon Chuck's excellent explanations, except to say that I like using the ST-E2 in any situation where it can do the job, as I prefer the balance of the camera with a smaller, lighter trigger unit. If you understand its limitations it can be a useful device, but I agree it is long overdue for replacement.
When I need more range for manual flash, I use Wein Pro-Sync IR triggers and/or PocketWizard Flex units.
) the just use M mode and power settings.