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mawz
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p.2 #1 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


DPReview samples here folks. They always suck.

I'll wait to see proper results, you can't predict anything about camera performance from DPReview's samples.

Nov 05, 2009 at 11:11 PM
Spyro P.
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p.2 #2 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


James R wrote:
Your links are to the same photo, which is a terrible photo.


Yes there is something wrong with my links, sorry. I meant the two ISO3200 shots.


Nov 05, 2009 at 11:50 PM
jhapeman
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p.2 #3 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


I played with an X1 and got to look at real shots taken with it. The results were much more impressive than what is shown on DPReview. As always, their samples are weak.

Nov 06, 2009 at 05:32 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.2 #4 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


RalphJ wrote:

I suspect that how people feel about the X1 will often reflect how they feel about Leica in general.


Totally agreed.

Most people, (me included), consider Leica as an arrogant elitist brand, which shows so clearly in their pricing.

I did not even take a look at the posted samples, since I have zero interest in this camera, but obviously, only Leica fans, for whom the price is no issue, will have a more objective evaluation of this camera. For all others, the price will be included in the equation, and this camera, like all Leica products, is ridiculously overpriced.

However, this reminds me of when I first bought my Contax T2 for 900$ back in the film days. Taking this into consideration, the X1 actually seems cheaper considering the digital components included.

This said, I do have an interest in Aps-c or even FF compacts, but not this one. I do hope Sony will introduce something similar soon, with a Zeiss not G lens.


Nov 06, 2009 at 07:17 AM
thrice
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p.2 #5 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


Most of the shots were wide open, at high iso. I think the noise is just fine given it's an APS-C sensor, I also think the CA was very low given that it's a pancake lens. The lens also seems to produce little/no coma and is quite sharp right from f/2.8.

I have a 5D-II, I don't see why people are so disappointed... did they expect it to be better than the 5D-II?

Look at the sharpness right into the corners (lower right corner is in focus) on this shot This is ISO400 which is nice & clean. The colour and DR looks good too.

Nov 06, 2009 at 08:35 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #6 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


It certainly will be interesting to see what the price of the non-Leica branded version is and which japanese company introduces it.

Nov 06, 2009 at 11:48 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #7 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


edwardkaraa wrote:
RalphJ wrote:

I suspect that how people feel about the X1 will often reflect how they feel about Leica in general.


Totally agreed.

Most people, (me included), consider Leica as an arrogant elitist brand, which shows so clearly in their pricing.

I did not even take a look at the posted samples, since I have zero interest in this camera, but obviously, only Leica fans, for whom the price is no issue, will have a more objective evaluation of this camera. a Zeiss not G lens.


I guess I completely disagree with this assumption (at least on this forum) and I think this has been demonstrated by a few in their reaction to the M9 vs. M8. The price is a major issue for me and I have no particular love for Leica but that should not prevent me from being able to judge the cameras abilities and performance.

Nov 06, 2009 at 12:03 PM
RalphJ
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p.2 #8 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


edwardkaraa wrote:

Most people, (me included), consider Leica as an arrogant elitist brand...


Any solid evidence to back this up, or are you just projecting personal feelings (jealousy?) onto everyone else?

Most photographers I hang with wish they could afford Leica but they don't get snippy about it.

Nov 06, 2009 at 12:26 PM
Lotusm50
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p.2 #9 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


edwardkaraa wrote:
Most people, (me included), consider Leica as an arrogant elitist brand...


and in response...

RalphJ wrote:
Any solid evidence to back this up, or are you just projecting personal feelings (jealousy?) onto everyone else?

Most photographers I hang with wish they could afford Leica but they don't get snippy about it.



These 2 statements are not inconsistent,

Aston Martin and Ferrari are clearly "elitist" brands (perhaps even "arrogant"), and everyone wishes they could afford them.

And while I can get similar performance levels out of a Chevrolet Corvette, I still would rather have a Ferrari or Aston. Is a Ferrari "worth it"?

There are a number of parallels.



Nov 06, 2009 at 01:53 PM
carstenw
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p.2 #10 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


edwardkaraa wrote:Most people, (me included), consider Leica as an arrogant elitist brand, which shows so clearly in their pricing.


C'mon Edward, having a bad day? A brand cannot be elitist. Do you mean that the employees are elitist, or the owners, or the CEO, or what? I have seen lots of evidence of exactly the opposite. Sure, there are some misguided owners who let their mouths run amok, but mostly they are a friendly bunch, and quite relaxed.

Nov 06, 2009 at 05:48 PM
snowboarder
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p.2 #11 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


Lotusm50 wrote:
edwardkaraa wrote:
Most people, (me included), consider Leica as an arrogant elitist brand...


and in response...

RalphJ wrote:
Any solid evidence to back this up, or are you just projecting personal feelings (jealousy?) onto everyone else?

Most photographers I hang with wish they could afford Leica but they don't get snippy about it.



These 2 statements are not inconsistent,

Aston Martin and Ferrari are clearly "elitist" brands (perhaps even "arrogant"), and everyone wishes they could afford them.

And while I can get similar performance levels out of a Chevrolet Corvette, I still would rather have a Ferrari or Aston. Is a Ferrari "worth it"?

There are a number of parallels.




The problem is Aston Martin is actually an amazing car.

Leica X1 is NOT an amazing camera. Even if it was cheap I wouldn't buy it.
Ricoh GRIII has a 920K amazing LCD and it's still considered a "luxury" compact for $700...
Leica X1 has an old cr@ppy POS 230K LCD and they want you to believe
they are the best out there so they can charge crazy money for it.

Look, I'm a big fan of some quite expensive watches. I really admire the craftsmanship
and the effort to construct something so small and beautiful, working well for a long time.
But I don't pretend a Breitling watch measures time better than a $2 electronic Casio.

Leica wants you to believe their expensive cameras are better. They are not.








Nov 06, 2009 at 06:31 PM
RalphJ
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p.2 #12 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


I for one like the luxury-car brand metaphor. Not all Aston Martins are great. Not all Leicas are great. But if either company was doing nothing right, they wouldn't be in business anymore.

I just don't understand the hostility. If other photographers want to "waste" their money on an arrogant, elitist camera instead of a bargain Asian brand, how is that different from the guy who wants to "waste" his money on a Breitling watch instead of a $2 Casio? What business is it of anyone's?

I hope Leica stays in business. The M9 is about half the size of every other full-frame camera, so it's not as though the Leica R&D department is sitting still. If people who "overpay" for the X1 help to keep the company going, why should those who don't like the X1 be so angry about that?

If the X1 is as awful as some here are claiming, can we not trust reviewers to find that out and broadcast their findings so that nobody makes the egregious mistake of actually buying one?

Nov 06, 2009 at 08:04 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #13 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


RalphJ wrote:

If the X1 is as awful as some here are claiming, can we not trust reviewers to find that out and broadcast their findings so that nobody makes the egregious mistake of actually buying one?


Well, unfortunately, we can't given what happened with the M8 reviews when it was introduced. At least now, we will apparently know if a specific reviewer has received compensation from a brand they are reviewing. Ultimately, we have to take these reviews with a huge grain of salt. That's just another reason why forums such as this are so important.

Nov 06, 2009 at 08:33 PM
 



snowboarder
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p.2 #14 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


Tariq Gibran wrote:
RalphJ wrote:

If the X1 is as awful as some here are claiming, can we not trust reviewers to find that out and broadcast their findings so that nobody makes the egregious mistake of actually buying one?


Well, unfortunately, we can't given what happened with the M8 reviews when it was introduced. At least now, we will apparently know if a specific reviewer has received compensation from a brand they are reviewing. Ultimately, we have to take these reviews with a huge grain of salt. That's just another reason that forums such as this are so important.


Especially if we're talking about the Leica reviews. They are very, very careful
in picking the "reviewers" getting the cameras. I suspect it's a strategy to delay the launch
and give those very few "reviewers" enough time to generate the excitement and noise...



Nov 06, 2009 at 08:36 PM
snowboarder
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p.2 #15 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


RalphJ wrote:
If other photographers want to "waste" their money on an arrogant, elitist camera instead of a bargain Asian brand, how is that different from the guy who wants to "waste" his money on a Breitling watch instead of a $2 Casio?


there is a major difference. The Leica owners are blind in the admiration
for the cameras clearly behind the competition. The M8 fiasco proved that.
The Breitling owners admire the craftsmanship, but won't try to prove the precision
of the time measurements against the simple electronic component.
It's not important to them. If Leica owners stopped pretending the cameras were
great and started admitting they were just the collectors of the high quality "objects",
they would be exactly like the watches owners.

Look, I admit it became quite hostile, but the Leica side is clearly equally responsible.
They are just denying anything putting their products in a more objective light...
It all must be great or shut up. They are Leica, aren't they?


Nov 06, 2009 at 08:44 PM
RalphJ
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p.2 #16 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


Let the conspiracy theories roll! (That's what I like about these forums!)

By the way, any of you critics own a Leica? Anyione here put thousands of rolls of film through Leicas? Or is this all secondhand/hearsay?




Nov 06, 2009 at 08:46 PM
Lotusm50
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p.2 #17 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


snowboarder wrote
The problem is Aston Martin is actually an amazing car.



Some of them are. So what? Some are no better than a Jaguar. Some might be worse than the BMW or a Merc. Not really the point though, and nit picking the analogy doesn't really help.

And a Chevrolet Corvette is an amazing cars well, when you come right down to it. Faster than an Aston...

But let me spell out the analogy for you so it clear. You can get roughly equal levels of performance out of a Corvette and an Aston Martin or a Ferrari -- you can argue very fine point about which is faster or handles better but both will get you around a track or around town similarly quickly. Same with a Leica. You can get similar levels of performance out of a M8 and 5D, or an M9 and 5Dll -- you can argue fine point about which one is better, but they are clearly in the same performance league. But as some people will spend much more to get the same performance out of Ferrari as a Corvette, likewise some people will spend more to get their performance out of a Leica than a Canon. Whether the value the materials use, the workmanship, the feel, style, sound or the storied history, as with Ferrari people, so too with Leica.


snowboarder wrote
Leica X1 is NOT an amazing camera. Even if it was cheap I wouldn't buy it.
Ricoh GRIII has a 920K amazing LCD and it's still considered a "luxury" compact for $700...
Leica X1 has an old cr@ppy POS 230K LCD and they want you to believe
they are the best out there so they can charge crazy money for it.



I don't get this at all. The Leica X1 is way ahead of the tiny sensor Ricoh GRIII in terms of IQ. You're deluding yourself with you obvious animosity towards Leica if you think otherwise. I agree than Leica missed a step with the low res LCD, but that has little effect on the resulting quality of the images. Quite frankly, i would have preferred Ricoh to put heir money into a larger sensor rather than a higher res screen. Clearly, the Leica is better built and crafted. I suspect the Leica X1 to have the best, or equal to the best, IQ among compact digital P&S's. But as with Ferrari, you pay extra for the same level of performance. You may not like that, I personally don't like it either, but some people do seem to value the intangibles I suggested above.


snowboarder wroteLook, I'm a big fan of some quite expensive watches. I really admire the craftsmanship and the effort to construct something so small and beautiful, working well for a long time. But I don't pretend a Breitling watch measures time better than a $2 electronic Casio.

Leica wants you to believe their expensive cameras are better. They are not.



They are certainly among the best, if not the best, in every category they operate in -- mostly due to their lenses, but not exclusively. Let's not compare an X1 with a 5Dll, but the cameras it is similar to -- say a Sigma DP2. You would be in a very small, bitter, minority if you don't believe Leica is among the best camera makers with image quality performance that is consistently among the best. I am not a Leica owner, nor do I support them in these pages much at all -- their strategy and decision making I think leave much to be desired, and I think they haven't really hit a home run in a long time -- I criticize them regularly -- yet I do not deny their quality and the image quality they can produce.

With a Ferrari you can get to 100km/h in 4 seconds, just like you can do in a Corvette, but many buyer are willing to pay more because it is the way they get you to 100 km/h in 4 seconds that is important. So too with Leica owners.

Me? I prefer a Lotus. ;-)



Nov 06, 2009 at 10:31 PM
Sam N
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p.2 #18 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


Wow this got pretty ugly.

The problem is there are no DIRECT competitors to the X1.

The DP2 is by far the closest (pretty much same size, similar FOV, same aperture lens, similar sized sensor, same low-res screen, popup flash, etc.), but the DP2 costs less than 1/3 the Leica and is a FAR FAR slower to operate (and probably inferior overall) camera.

You could also compare the above cameras to a GF1+20/1.7, but the GF1 is a system camera so there are a lot of big differences there.

In terms of IQ, you could compare to DSLRs which use the same sensors, but again the SLRs are system cameras (with all the advantages that entails) and don't offer fast contrast-detect focusing or the small size.

All in all, I think the X1 will find its niche and I'm just glad that there are more small cameras with big sensors and good fixed lenses. Hopefully this market will continue to grow and we'll see some good price competition.

Nov 06, 2009 at 10:42 PM
trajan
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p.2 #19 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


Leica X1 has an APS-C sensor, and judging from the pictures, it's below 40d quality, which had an older APS-C sensor. It could be the lens... the lens looks so small...

I really hope it can deliver better, because I would really like an ok camera which I can always carry with me.

--trajan

Nov 06, 2009 at 11:08 PM
Lotusm50
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p.2 #20 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


trajan wrote:
Leica X1 has an APS-C sensor, and judging from the pictures, it's below 40d quality, which had an older APS-C sensor. It could be the lens... the lens looks so small...

I really hope it can deliver better, because I would really like an ok camera which I can always carry with me.



I think we should wait for some real samples to turn up -- dpreview samples are notoriously bad at telling you how good something can be. I think they show potential -- particularly on the noise front, but I'll wait and see about overall quality. I'm sure we'll see some samples here pretty quickly.



Nov 06, 2009 at 11:44 PM
philber
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p.2 #21 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


Fact is, though, that the X1 is by far the most expensive "small camera" on the market. Because of its very high price, it will expected to deliver commensurate "value" for buyers. Which means that it should blow out the water any other small camera in terms of IQ just as its prices overshadows any other. For reference, considering that the X1 has one fixed length lens, for the same money, I could get a Canon T1i (500D) with a fabulous prime, like, for example, a Zeiss Distagon ZE35. And I could also get a similarly sized GF1, which also a large-size-sensor pocket camera (though the sensor is not quite a large as the X1's), also with a fabulous prime, like a Zeiss Biogon 25 or 28. And, of course, the X1 will be required to easily see off the GF1 with a "native" 20 f:1.7 So, because of the price point, expectations are high, and these samples, early thouhg they are, do not look like they have convinced many people. As I said, X1 is a camera I would love to love, but it won't take too many sets of samples like this to get me to move on and, for example, to buy the GF1.

Nov 07, 2009 at 06:29 AM
dave chilvers
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p.2 #22 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


The thing is about Leica, when I owned various film M`s they were truly a camera that you could more or less take anywhere with IQ that most people would die for. I can remember walking around Paris , France with a Leica under my overcoat and several lenses stuck easily in pockets. Returned home to top quality images that won me many a club comp. Yes! I had to pay the premium (more so in those days) but had equipment that would last a lifetime and wouldn`t be superseded at the drop of a hat. There really wasn`t anything else that I found could equal the Leicas in 35mm format.
Today things have changed, it`s just not enough to use top class lenses, you have to have all the top notch electronics and sensors to be able to extract that IQ and I`m afraid that the likes of Canon etc (although I thought that sony would sweep the board being basically an electronics company) are right up there with the best electronics people in the world.
Leicas are still well made like they always were but lets be honest cameras must be one of the fastest upgrades in the world( if not the fastest) so spending two or three times the amount on a camera that is carved from solid is all very well but it will be a paper weight as far as technology goes in 12 months time. I learnt that the hard way buying 1 series Canons and now more or less carry my 5d2 90% of the time.
Like nearly everyone on this board I`ve searched for the elusive small camera that can compete with my DSLR gear but am yet to find a camera that can give me the IQ when enlarging the very occasional grab shot that really worked and should be blown up big on the wall. I always find myself regretting not carrying the bulk when I see the results.
Take the 500D, for moving around when travelling it can be made reasonably small with the lens removed. You can fit the body and a few small primes easily in a small bag on even on ones person and at least have something that might compete when the chips are down and it won`t break the bank( well! at least what you spend will look like something approaching decent value.)
If the better off fancy a Leica then so be it but in this day and age don`t expect it to stay anywhere near the top of the tree for long.
Could I justify a lay out of maybe £10,000 for an M9 and several lenses? maybe, if i wasn`t getting top class results from my 5d2 and a few selected secondhand MF lenses.

Ignore me! it`s the age and the credit crunch

Nov 07, 2009 at 09:50 AM
thrice
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p.2 #23 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


I think Oscar Barnack must've shot snowboarder's dog.

Nov 07, 2009 at 10:32 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.2 #24 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


carstenw wrote:
edwardkaraa wrote:Most people, (me included), consider Leica as an arrogant elitist brand, which shows so clearly in their pricing.


C'mon Edward, having a bad day? A brand cannot be elitist. Do you mean that the employees are elitist, or the owners, or the CEO, or what? I have seen lots of evidence of exactly the opposite. Sure, there are some misguided owners who let their mouths run amok, but mostly they are a friendly bunch, and quite relaxed.


Wow! I didn't expect my comments to stir the hornet's nest the way they did.

I have nothing against Leica, and actually my comments were not meant in a mean or bad way.

Arrogant and elitist are in the sense that Leica prides itself in making the best products in its category, expensive products that are not meant for everyone. The same can be said about Zeiss. Except that Zeiss tends to price its products incrementally to the quality it makes. Zeiss lenses can very well be 20-50% more expensive than their competitors, but the last time I was interested in purchasing a Leica, the R50/1.4 cost like 2500$, 5 times the price of its nearest competitor. Of course it is unthinkable that the R50/1.4 could be 5 times better than say the Contax 50/1.4.

As I said in my previous post, The X1 doesn't seem to be expensive in Leica's standards. It is only 2 times more expensive than what it normally should sell for. A few years ago, Leica could have asked 5000$ for this camera and get away with it. My Contax T2 that I bought in 1995 for 900$ was way more expensive in comparison.

The M9 seems to be similarly priced. So it seems that Leica understands it cannot command the same prices for products that will become obsolete in 2-3 years time. The lenses however, are another story.



Nov 07, 2009 at 10:53 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.2 #25 · Leica X1 preview samples gallery


Tariq Gibran wrote:
edwardkaraa wrote:
RalphJ wrote:

I suspect that how people feel about the X1 will often reflect how they feel about Leica in general.


Totally agreed.

Most people, (me included), consider Leica as an arrogant elitist brand, which shows so clearly in their pricing.

I did not even take a look at the posted samples, since I have zero interest in this camera, but obviously, only Leica fans, for whom the price is no issue, will have a more objective evaluation of this camera. a Zeiss not G lens.


I guess I completely disagree with this assumption (at least on this forum) and I think this has been demonstrated by a few in their reaction to the M9 vs. M8. The price is a major issue for me and I have no particular love for Leica but that should not prevent me from being able to judge the cameras abilities and performance.


Tariq, I'm afraid you misunderstood me here. I didn't look at the photo samples, because I do not intend to buy this camera, not because it is a Leica. I usually would do the same with any brand or model.

I am interested in the concept of the X1 though, and have been wishing we could get a FF option sometime in the future. But I know I cannot justify the price so I just switch my interest somewhere else.

Knowing Leica, I have no doubt the X1 must be special in several ways, and probably the best in its class. I'm sure however that it is not proportionally priced to its quality advantage.


Nov 07, 2009 at 11:05 AM




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