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Archive 2009 · Clarification

Lucky_Dog
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p.2 #1 · Clarification

Sounds like you were in AV mode. The flash is in fill only mode -- the camera attempts to properly expose for ambient. This is not the camera's fault... you need to learn how to use it. I'm not trying to insult you, nor does your post bother me... I'm trying to give you a hint where to look to remedy your troubles.

For the record... this is, more or less, a professional wedding community here. You are apparently not a wedding professional. Your question probably would have received a better response if asked in a different forum.

Good luck to you and feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

Nov 01, 2009 at 07:17 PM

JazzyMac
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p.2 #2 · Clarification

@CarminaF:

Group of professionals? If that's the case, then maybe FM should make it a requirement for no one to post here unless they are a self-titled professional?

@Lucky_Dog

Maybe the forum is for what anyone wants to make it...so long as the topic is "wedding"??

Just a thought.

Hmm, this is what I've been warned about.

Nov 01, 2009 at 08:42 PM

Lucky_Dog
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p.2 #3 · Clarification

JazzyMac wrote:
@CarminaF:

Group of professionals? If that's the case, then maybe FM should make it a requirement for no one to post here unless they are a self-titled professional?

@Lucky_Dog

Maybe the forum is for what anyone wants to make it...so long as the topic is "wedding"??

Just a thought.

Hmm, this is what I've been warned about.

Did you have a point? Would you like to buy one? I'm a pro and here to help...........

Nov 01, 2009 at 08:47 PM

CarminaF
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p.2 #4 · Clarification

Ok then, Jazzy.

I would consider it the OP's responsibility to figure out who is active in the forum they are posting in, and then make a decision about posting there. She probably should have posted in a beginners forum. There are not many 'camera basics' threads here for a reason.

If I wanted to tell someone about my failure attempting to fix someones car, I would not choose a forum full of licensed mechanics to do it.

Nov 01, 2009 at 08:51 PM

TTLKurtis
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p.2 #5 · Clarification

If the OP really wanted to improve I think they'd have thanked everyone for their spot-on feedback instead of removing the post like a baby.

My 2 cents: Judging by your cheap camera body, I'm going to make a guess that you were using a cheap kit lens. The major benefit of high-end lenses (sharpness, quick and accurate focus, IS, color/contrast and other things aside) is the large wide-open apertures they offer. I'm going to guess you were trying to shoot in a church at f/3.5-f/4.5, and at even the highest ISOs on your camera, that's going to be hard to get a suitable shutter speed without totally overpowering ambient with your flash.

Here's the thing - you probably have no idea what I'm talking about. And -that- is the root problem. The problem is not the camera. Any professional could get good enough shots with the worst equipment if we had to, because we know how to get the best from whatever equipment we use. The problem is that you don't know what you're doing, as evidenced by your 'trying every possible setting' - here's a little clue, there's 4 different variables you should need to use to get good shots: aperture, shutter speed, ISO, and flash exposure compensation. That's about it...

I'm glad to hear that you didn't charge for this wedding and that there was another photographer there, but if you're going to learn anything you need to read some books and practice, practice, practice. Reading alone isn't enough, you're going to need to apply what you read to really get it and then eventually it will become second nature.

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:00 PM

JazzyMac
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p.2 #6 · Clarification

CarminaF wrote:
Ok then, Jazzy.

I would consider it the OP's responsibility to figure out who is active in the forum they are posting in, and then make a decision about posting there. She probably should have posted in a beginners forum. There are not many 'camera basics' threads here for a reason.

If I wanted to tell someone about my failure attempting to fix someones car, I would not choose a forum full of licensed mechanics to do it.

Why not? Why not ask the best for their input? You would ask beginner mechanics? That's not logical at all. Everyone started somewhere...high horse unnecessary.

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:03 PM

JazzyMac
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p.2 #7 · Clarification

TTLKurtis wrote:
If the OP really wanted to improve I think they'd have thanked everyone for their spot-on feedback instead of removing the post like a baby.

My 2 cents: Judging by your cheap camera body, I'm going to make a guess that you were using a cheap kit lens. The major benefit of high-end lenses (sharpness, quick and accurate focus, IS, color/contrast and other things aside) is the large wide-open apertures they offer. I'm going to guess you were trying to shoot in a church at f/3.5-f/4.5, and at even the highest ISOs on your camera, that's going to be hard to get a suitable shutter speed without totally overpowering ambient with your flash.

Here's the thing - you probably have no idea what I'm talking about.

And this is what I'm talking about.

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:07 PM

TTLKurtis
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p.2 #8 · Clarification

JazzyMac wrote:
CarminaF wrote:
Ok then, Jazzy.

I would consider it the OP's responsibility to figure out who is active in the forum they are posting in, and then make a decision about posting there. She probably should have posted in a beginners forum. There are not many 'camera basics' threads here for a reason.

If I wanted to tell someone about my failure attempting to fix someones car, I would not choose a forum full of licensed mechanics to do it.

Why not? Why not ask the best for their input? You would ask beginner mechanics? That's not logical at all. Everyone started somewhere...high horse unnecessary.

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:11 PM

CarminaF
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p.2 #9 · Clarification

TTLKurtis wrote:
a bunch of stuff that is bang-on

Yes indeedy.

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:18 PM

JazzyMac
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p.2 #10 · Clarification

TTLKurtis wrote:
JazzyMac wrote:
CarminaF wrote:
Ok then, Jazzy.

I would consider it the OP's responsibility to figure out who is active in the forum they are posting in, and then make a decision about posting there. She probably should have posted in a beginners forum. There are not many 'camera basics' threads here for a reason.

If I wanted to tell someone about my failure attempting to fix someones car, I would not choose a forum full of licensed mechanics to do it.

Why not? Why not ask the best for their input? You would ask beginner mechanics? That's not logical at all. Everyone started somewhere...high horse unnecessary.

Here's why... because professionals don't like when amateurs try to steal business from them when they don't even respect 'whatever-it-is' enough to do a little of the legwork for themselves. You don't go to a mechanic shop and say "Hey pal, can you teach me how to swap out my engine? Oh, and I need to rebuild the new one. I've tried everything I could to get it running, and I think I may have broken off a flux capacitor."

And you can roll your eyes all you want, but everyone else here knows I'm right. Granted, he could be using expensive L-glass, but that just makes him look even worse. Nobody likes a troll, JazzyMac.

Sometimes people don't know what questions to ask. There is no note attached to the camera boxes saying, "Don't take any pictures unless you are a bonafied professional!!!"

Like I said, everyone starts somewhere.

Are you seriously saying that the OP stole business from someone on FM? If you are, then there are bigger problems here. No matter what you (or I) think, people who don't want to spend money....won't spend money!!! She explained her situation, I'm just shocked at the self-righteous responses is all.

No, I don't like trolls either. Rolling eyes smiley stays.

A real professional is secure enough in their status without having to put others down, literally or implied. There is nothing in this forum that states "Only for professionals". GAL

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:26 PM

CarminaF
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p.2 #11 · Clarification

I would suggest the the OP start by learning basic camera functions (as was suggested). The library is full of books. I started somewhere, it was by reading and by doing. The interwebz came later.

None one here is on a salary, no one here is expected to 'teach' someone. I'm personally not in a big hurry to spell it out for someone who doesn't care enough to figure out the basics for themself.

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:32 PM

JazzyMac
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p.2 #12 · Clarification

So what I'm seeing is, "Don't post here until we feel you're good enough?" I'm not sure this is what this website was made for. I think it was made for amateurs and professionals alike to learn, befriend, and have a sense of community in a common subject. Photography.

The clique that I'm seeing here is not what I feel this website is about. My two cents only.

Someone is frustrated, asks for help, and this is what they get. Lovely.

One can learn the basics by asking questions if they feel that's how they want to learn. If you don't want to answer, don't post!!!

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:36 PM

CarminaF
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p.2 #13 · Clarification

Hey, don't put words into anyone's mouth.

People with a sincere desire to learn do well here. If the OP had a sincere desire to learn, they would have bucked up and done what the posters here suggested. Instead the OP deleted the post (in a defensive posture). Not the best way to learn or gain respect of people who are in a position to give helpful feedback.

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:40 PM

Lucky_Dog
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p.2 #14 · Clarification

JazzyMac wrote:
So what I'm seeing is, "Don't post here until we feel you're good enough?" I'm not sure this is what this website was made for. I think it was made for amateurs and professionals alike to learn, befriend, and have a sense of community in a common subject. Photography.

The clique that I'm seeing here is not what I feel this website is about. My two cents only.

Someone is frustrated, asks for help, and this is what they get. Lovely.

One can learn the basics by asking questions if they feel that's how they want to learn. If you don't want to answer, don't post!!!

Did you have one single comment even remotely wedding related? Did you have anything at all to offer the OP? Or.... are you simply trolling on a Sunday afternoon looking for a fight? Kinda pathetic, IMO.

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:42 PM

ksmahgrts
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p.2 #15 · Clarification

no one is discouraging amateurs from posting. in fact, some of the most talented folks on here are amateurs (or began posting when they were just starting out.) but the ability to accept feedback is just part of the responsibility of being a forum member.

the issue is not 'do you make money taking pictures' or 'for how long' or 'at what level' - but that this forum is not the place for an in depth discussion on "what is exposure?"

there are plenty of places to learn how to take a picture - they were suggested. the fact that the OP didn't make any effort to gather a clue about the forum before posting, and then copped an attitude about "being insulted" didn't help his/her cause at all.

some people around here are terrific. some are bastards. to base your judgment of the entire forum on one lame thread is silly.

Nov 01, 2009 at 09:46 PM

BrianO
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p.2 #16 · Clarification

Some of the answers given, although blunt, were helpful -- or would be helpful if the OP read them and tried to learn from them or ask clarifying questions related to them.

Since the OP didn't follow through by posting sample shots with EXIF data, nor even ask "how do I post my photos," it seems that there is little interest in actually taking advantage of the vast experience available here.

That being said...

"I shoot with a Canon Rebel XT (digital). Is my model just not good for low lighting, movement photos? Is it user error?"

It's probably user error. There's a slim possibility that there is a malfunction happening, but it's not simply that the model isn't good for use in low light. The fact that you were changing settings without getting improved results shows that what others here have said is probably correct: you don't yet have a firm grasp of the fundamentals.

Instead of lying on the floor and hanging over balconies, start with stationary subjects shot from a single position, then move to moving subjects only after you get consistant results with still subjects.

Forget all the "hundreds of settings" and start with manual exposure mode. By setting aperture and shutter speed yourself you'll learn how the two interact to control exposure, depth of field, and motion control better than just reading about it and guessing at what the camera is automatically doing in other modes.

"Learn the basics" --yep. Ya gotta walk before you can run. A house built on a weak foundation cannot stand. Etc., etc., etc.

Nov 01, 2009 at 10:10 PM

flash
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p.2 #17 · Clarification

TTLKurtis wrote:
Here's why... because professionals don't like when amateurs try to steal business from them when they don't even respect 'whatever-it-is' enough to do a little of the legwork for themselves. You don't go to a mechanic shop and say "Hey pal, can you teach me how to swap out my engine? Oh, and I need to rebuild the new one. I've tried everything I could to get it running, and I think I may have broken off a flux capacitor."

And you can roll your eyes all you want, but everyone else here knows I'm right. Granted, he could be using expensive L-glass, but that just makes him look even worse. Nobody likes a troll, JazzyMac.

Not everyone. I strongly dissagree with this type of attitude. When I was first starting out in wedding photography a lot of real professionals went out of their way to help me when I needed it. This is an industry where you need to be in it to get ahead. You can't become great at weddings by doing a degree or a course without doing the hard yards.

Most of the truely sucessful professionals I know have no problems helping out and have thankfully got over the "you're steling our livelyhood" nonsense. They are secure in the knowledge that they do what they do well enough that lending a helping hand isn't going to impact their success.

I also see nowhere where it states this is a professionals only zone. They do exist, of course. If you can't handle the fact that this is a public forum then maybe you need to look elsewhere. Just because the majority are professionals does not mean that others should not be welcome.

On the other hand those that have asked for samples are spot on. We can't really be expected to give advice on what we can't see. The OP really needed to come in with a thicker skin. The original question really was looking for a harsh answer.

Gordon

Nov 01, 2009 at 10:24 PM

JazzyMac
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p.2 #18 · Clarification

Someone who disagrees is not a troll. Thanks all for your feedback, and yes I know, a couple of asswipes does not a forum make.

Nov 01, 2009 at 10:25 PM

TTLKurtis
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p.2 #19 · Clarification

Flash: You took my post the wrong way. Perhaps my wording was not clear. I am all for helping amateurs, but they have to do a little legwork themselves. For example, you sought out professionals, and I'm sure you asked specific questions and there was a give and take in that process. You don't just say 'I tried a bunch of stuff with my Rebel and it didn't go so well at this WEDDING I was shooting...' I'm sorry, but that just doesn't give people a good impression. The old 'teach a man to fish' saying fits here.

JazzyMac: I don't think anybody here is worried about him taking business from us. My point was not that we can't handle the 'competition' (I'm of the mindset that there's room for all of us out there to do our thing). My point is that there is a difference between asking someone to hold your hand and spoon-feed you information and someone who really has the dedication and desire to learn.

I am personally very open with information. The things I mentioned were things that that the OP should google and do some research on. If you don't believe that I'm open to helping those who are willing to help themselves, perhaps you'd like to read some of the articles I've written:

Beginner's Guide to Manual Photography
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/287/Beginners-Guide-to-Manual-Photography/

Beginner's Guide to Photographic Composition
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/611/Beginners-Guide-to-Photographic-Composition-Part-I/

10 Reasons to Buy a DSLR Camera
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/308/10-Reasons-to-Buy-a-DSLR-Camera/

10 Reasons NOT to Buy a DSLR Camera
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/312/10-Reasons-NOT-to-Buy-a-DSLR-Camera/

5 Things You Need to Know About SLR Lenses
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/379/5-Things-You-Need-to-Know-About-SLR-Lenses/

and some other articles on the site, contributed by others, that are worth a read:

10+ Things I Learn w/ my First DSLR
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/513/10-Things-I-Learned-With-my-First-DSLR/

Beyond Megapixels - Parts I, II, and III
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/121/Beyond-Megapixels-Part-I/
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/123/Beyond-Megapixels-Part-II/
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/134/Beyond-Megapixels-Part-III/

The End of the Megapixel Race
http://www.thetechlounge.com/article/262/The-End-of-the-Megapixel-Race/

So yeah, you were right on about me (and others here) being scared to help the new guys because they're going to take all our business away. So scared that we are seeding them with the information they need to get started. :rolleyes:

Edited on Nov 01, 2009 at 10:33 PM · View previous versions

Nov 01, 2009 at 10:28 PM

Cole Cauffman
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p.2 #20 · Clarification

I started out a couple years ago with the Rebel XTi. It's a great beginner camera for someone just getting into the DSLR world. I've got some great shots using that camera!

Being where you are only a couple years ago, all I can say is practice, practice, practice. And when you have time, read online or in books. If you can find someone who will let you assist or play 2nd or 3rd shooter, I would sign up. Also, do you have any workshops in your area? These are all great ways to learn and ask questions.

Don't give up if this is your dream and what you REALLY want to do. It just takes some time and getting used to your camera and it's operations. I hope this helps!

Nov 01, 2009 at 10:31 PM

Mr. Malik
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p.2 #21 · Clarification

Cole Cauffman wrote:
I started out a couple years ago with the Rebel XTi. It's a great beginner camera for someone just getting into the DSLR world. I've got some great shots using that camera!

Being where you are only a couple years ago, all I can say is practice, practice, practice. And when you have time, read online or in books. If you can find someone who will let you assist or play 2nd or 3rd shooter, I would sign up. Also, do you have any workshops in your area? These are all great ways to learn and ask questions.

Don't give up if this is your dream and what you REALLY want to do. It just takes some time and getting used to your camera and it's operations. I hope this helps!

What he said!

Nov 01, 2009 at 10:59 PM

pattyw
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p.2 #22 · Clarification

jennimon wrote:
Here is an example of a shot from inside the church, which I am not happy with:

Now we're talking something solid!

Your first shot is definately a combination subject motion and camera shake. It looks like you were shooting with ambient light and maybe at a bit of a distance. You needed to be perhaps closer, more flash power, a faster shutter speed.

I don't mind the second and third shot (except for the crazy tilt!)

Nov 01, 2009 at 11:07 PM

TTLKurtis
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p.2 #23 · Clarification

Now that you've posted some clarification, I can see that my assumptions regarding your gear were correct. My assumptions weren't because I thought lowly of you, but because based on the results you said you got, that's what made sense.

Shooting indoors with a slow lens is tough to do without a LOT of flash power. Do you have an external flash, or are you using the pop-up flash? I'm going to guess you're using the pop-up right? A speedlight, even a non-Canon one like those from Sigma, will make a HUGE difference in your ability to capture things in poor lighting. When I was starting out I went with a Sigma to save money - I eventually sold it and bought a Canon 580 EX to replace it, but I got by just fine with the Sigma for a good while. You'll probably need to use flash exposure compensation to get good results, or put it into manual mode. I would suggest getting that if you're planning to shoot indoors. You may also want to get the 'thrifty-fifty' (Canon's 50mm f/1.8). It's not the best lens in the world, but it will be sharp enough and the wide aperture will make a world of difference indoors as well.

Here are links to BHPhotoVideo for the products I mentioned:

Sigma Flash for Canon ($149):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/515362-REG/Sigma_179_101_EF_530_DG_ST_Flash.html#features

Canon 50mm f/1.8 ($110):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/12142-USA/Canon_2514A002_Normal_EF_50mm_f_1_8.html

Regarding composition - stop shooting at off-angles unless you have a reason to do it. It doesn't make the photo cooler just because it's at an angle, and this is a very common rookie mistake.

Edited on Nov 01, 2009 at 11:23 PM · View previous versions

Nov 01, 2009 at 11:14 PM

JazzyMac
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p.2 #24 · Clarification

OP, awesome shots. Yes, that first one was definitely camera movement...no tripod + low light, etc., etc. makes for blurry pics.

Your third one is really nice...love the expressions!

Nov 01, 2009 at 11:15 PM

JazzyMac
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p.2 #25 · Clarification

@TTLKurtis: You could have posted those links to begin with instead of being condescending...as you still cannot seem to stop even now.

Are you saying OP cannot use a tripod and push better shots? Me thinks so. I don't think there was a flash fired in those shots.

Edited on Nov 01, 2009 at 11:20 PM · View previous versions

Nov 01, 2009 at 11:19 PM


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