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Archive 2009 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

dolina
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p.1 #1 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

I have neither but I am curious how a nearly 3yo camera compares to the latest and greatest APS-C crop from Canon. We've seen the 7d vs 5d Mark I comparison with surprising results. So how does the 1D3 do?

For added bonus can anyone do a comparison between a 1D Mark IIn & 7d as well?

This would be a great way to forecast future performance of bodies for the next 3-6 years.

Oct 13, 2009 at 03:09 PM

PhotogDave
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p.1 #2 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

Resolution aside, the image quality from the 1D3 should be much better. I know noise wise the 1D3 is much better. And I print awesome 13x19's real easy from it.

HERES a link to a few 1D3 samples from mine the other day and a friends new 7D. They really arent comparisons. Mine were shot indoors ISO 1600 static and his were ISO 1250 outdoors on moving subject. Buts its something to look at and get an idea of what the 1D3 can produce. I've not seen 1 7D image out there at ISO 1600 that even comes close to the ones I posted in that link.

He also sent this body(7D) back, got a new one and says its better focus wise....and obviously the images are now sharper. But even the last one thats in focus, isnt stunning.
Right now, the 1D3 is the best Canon has noise wise and is barely under the Nikon D3. I used both side by side and the 1D3 looks the same on Luminance noise, but has about 1/3 stop more Chromiance noise...if that much.
The 5D2 is good noise wise, but its a little nosier than the 1D3. But pretty good for 21mp.

The 1D3 is a very clean camera when properly exposed. The link you posted are typical results from the 7D. I've seen this kind of IQ posted from just about everyone.

Its a good bit better than the 50D, but it cant compete with the larger sensors, nor should it be expected too.

I have a Homecoming to shoot this Sat. plus Game afterwords, and hes gonna shoot a game with his, gonna be interesting to see how they stack up. I know the IQ will be better on mine, but I really wonder about other things like metering, WB, and the new AF...is it better than mine. A few others have said its comparable, but wont know for sure till I get my paws on it to see for myself.

Oct 13, 2009 at 07:39 PM

garyvot
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p.1 #3 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

PhotogDave wrote:
Resolution aside, the image quality from the 1D3 should be much better. I know noise wise the 1D3 is much better. And I print awesome 13x19's real easy from it.

But that's the problem: you can't put resolution aside.

Here is a direct comparison of the 7D (resampled) vs 1D3 at ISO 1600 using the Imaging-Resource samples. Can you say which is better?

http://3szi9q.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pwFDctljl39mfJlIFpU-Oi28dNE7_JxSGG3VYdWtktJY2-CCmMYrUG7j99ApLY5joTlGzrs3wmpDblILqOYCj5lOyj7k4-pTu/1D3-7D.jpg

Oct 13, 2009 at 09:17 PM

TooManyShots
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p.1 #4 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

Let's see some RAW ISO1600 shots from both bodies

Oct 13, 2009 at 10:11 PM

garyvot
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p.1 #5 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

TooManyShots wrote:
Let's see some RAW ISO1600 shots from both bodies

Would love to do this but I no longer have access to a 1D3 body to shoot identical scenes in identical lighting, as these JPEG samples have been.

Based on my impressions of looking at different RAW images, I think the 7D (when equalized for output and absent any NR) shows a bit more chroma noise and maybe just a touch more luminance noise, but appropriate noise reduction can render these differences moot, as you can see above. (Perhaps someone else can show us RAW samples.) Nothing, however, will make the 1D3 gain additional resolution.

Oct 13, 2009 at 10:19 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #6 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

The resampled 7D shot has better contrast and sharpness, but they are very close otherwise. The WB seems a bit better on the 1D III.

Oct 13, 2009 at 11:10 PM

Hrow
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p.1 #7 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

The lighting isn't the same which would impact contrast. The thing with tests like this is that one assumes that the focus is the same and it almost certainly isn't which can seriously skew one's impressions. While interesting, tests of this nature are hardly definitive.

Oct 14, 2009 at 06:03 AM

Beni
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p.1 #8 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

That 1D mkIII is a lot better in the shadows though it has less resolution of course. Look at the brush and the shadows next to it.

Oct 14, 2009 at 06:28 AM

PhotogDave
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p.1 #9 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

See, as soon as you start resampling pixels, the status changes. The 7D doesnt produce a 10MP image. So by downsizing it, it changes what the sensors outputs and gives it an advantage.

If you want to match FOV, you need to do just that....match FOV, not resample image size. In te link you posted, thats what he did with the 5D, and the 1D3 is better than that. Theres no way that 7D produces cleaner images than the 1D3.

These test were scewed. You see how clean and sharp the RAW images were that I posted in the link. Thtere hasnt been a 7D image posted anywhere that was close to that.

He needs both cameras side by side shooting same scene, then match FOV for both cameras, shot RAW with default Pic styles and NO NR. By shooting the same FOV, and NOT resampling the images, this will tell you which image is cleaner from which sensor.

All this resampling is pointless, no one buys a 18mp camera to use it at 10mp so it matches the 1D3. I know the OP wont do this, he is asking to see how the 7D sensor stacks up to the 1D3, and as I said, resolution aside, it doesnt. Now yes, at lower ISO's in good light etc, the 7D will out resolve the 1D3 due to the Mp's. But I'd bet money, at ISO 1600, it wont. Just because of all the noise and NR on chip to counter pixel density.

The fact is, the 7D sensor makes an 18mp image, so you need to evaluate exactly what the sensor produces, as same with 1D3. Then, if the image has more noise, then so be it. But everyone knows that reducing the MP will lower noise in the image, especially when doing so by almost half.

Also, to test the sensor noise, the NR needs to be off, the both the above has the NR on and are shot jpeg. This in no way represents exactly what comes off the two sensors.

Oct 14, 2009 at 08:03 AM

alundeb
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p.1 #10 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

PhotogDave wrote:
See, as soon as you start resampling pixels, the status changes. The 7D doesnt produce a 10MP image. So by downsizing it, it changes what the sensors outputs and gives it an advantage.

If you want to match FOV, you need to do just that....match FOV, not resample image size. In te link you posted, thats what he did with the 5D, and the 1D3 is better than that. Theres no way that 7D produces cleaner images than the 1D3.

These test were scewed. You see how clean and sharp the RAW images were that I posted in the link. Thtere hasnt...Show more →

I like the approach that you must compare for similar FOV.

In addition, you should compare for similar DoF. To get that, you must use a wider aperture. And with the same shutter speed, that we also must use to make the comparison fair, you will HAVE TO use a lower ISO. Guess what. The table turns again. The 7D gets the advantage.

Oct 14, 2009 at 08:15 AM

PhotogDave
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p.1 #11 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

I like the approach that you must compare for similar FOV.

In addition, you should compare for similar DoF. To get that, you must use a wider aperture. And with the same shutter speed, that we also must use to make the comparison fair, you will HAVE TO use a lower ISO. Guess what. The table turns again. The 7D gets the advantage.

Well....you can still use the same shutter speed and ISO and just use an aperture thats small enoguh to give both acceptable DOF. I'd be willing to forgo any DOF discrepancies, it really wont have much bearing on apparent noise if the right aperture is chosen. For me, I'd tend to pick smaller apretures for tryig to resolve detail under noise testses to ensure the lenses were sharp. Using a lens at 2.8 already has inherent softness, add in noise and its even worse. I would tend to think both cameras would perform well at f8. Good aperture for just about any lens camera combo. If you were using a 50 f1.2 at f8, then thats a differnt story, I think its sweet spot happents between f4-5.6...at least my nifty 50 is that way.

You must match FOV thoguh and ignore pixel size. This is what the sensor produces....then so be it.Yes the 100% crop will be larger or less FOV on the higher pixel sensor, but so what, its still 100% pixel level. Its not like its being viewed at 200% on one and not the other, 100% is pixel level. I just did a similar tets with my 1D3 and 5D2 using 85 f1.2...but it was at 1.2....wasnt testing noise, testing lens performance. But the 100% crops arent that much different. Heres a link, and as you can see, its pickem between the 2. Had I downsampled the 5D2 to match the 1D3, it would have made the 1D3 look like it was horrible, which we know isnt the case, and this wouldnt represent what a user would see when snapping pics with the 5D2 in reality.

Oct 14, 2009 at 08:37 AM

davenfl
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p.1 #12 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

Beni wrote:
That 1D mkIII is a lot better in the shadows though it has less resolution of course. Look at the brush and the shadows next to it.

Owning both I would say from my un-scientific tests they are darn close with the 7D clearly having more detail. As to the test shot you cannot make the assessment you are commenting on with any accuracy since the lighting in the shots is totally different. I think people want the $4K camera to be miles better but the truth is from an IQ standpoint it is not.

Dave

Oct 14, 2009 at 08:40 AM

garyvot
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p.1 #13 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

PhotogDave wrote:
See, as soon as you start resampling pixels, the status changes. The 7D doesnt produce a 10MP image. So by downsizing it, it changes what the sensors outputs and gives it an advantage.

PhotogDave, as it has been demonstrated here many times, it is not relevant to compare noise on screen at 100% for cameras having differing resolutions. That's like judging noise by comapring two different sized prints.

The only relevant comparison is to make prints of equal size, or to compare images on screen at equal resolutions. Either way, one or both images must be resampled.

Edited on Oct 14, 2009 at 10:20 AM · View previous versions

Oct 14, 2009 at 10:05 AM

garyvot
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p.1 #14 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

davenfl wrote:
Owning both I would say from my un-scientific tests they are darn close with the 7D clearly having more detail. As to the test shot you cannot make the assessment you are commenting on with any accuracy since the lighting in the shots is totally different. I think people want the $4K camera to be miles better but the truth is from an IQ standpoint it is not.

Dave

Well, the lighting might show a slight local variation in this particular cropped view, but over the whole image the lighting is very similar (that's the point of their test). More importantly, the color and intensity of the light is identical as they have used the same lighting setup. One of the reasons I selected this crop is that it is easy to compare noise in the shadow area behind the bottle and cup, and sharpness in the labels and the text on the chart.

The image speak for themselves, but I conclude from this comparison that, at least using in-camera JPEGs (and probably from RAW too), the 7D can equal the noise performance of the 1D3 when making equal sized prints or Web output. This is the scenario that matters most in practice.

Anyone can download these images and do simlar comparisons if you like. Imaging-Resource has samples from the 7D and 1D3 at all NR settings (Disabled, Low, Standard, High and On / Off respectively). Reviews and sample images here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/MFR1.HTM?view=Canon_reviews

Oct 14, 2009 at 10:14 AM

mfurman
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p.1 #15 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

garyvot:
I conclude from this comparison that, at least using in-camera JPEGs (and probably from RAW too), the 7D can equal the noise performance of the 1D3

1D mkIII was always cosidered to be a low noise camera (comparable in this respect or better than 5D mkI). Do you mean to say that there is no sensor size advantage in this case? Is then 7D the new low noise king?

Do you think that 7D is going to be better than, let's say, Nikon D3s?

Oct 14, 2009 at 10:35 AM

garyvot
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p.1 #16 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

mfurman wrote:
Do you mean to say that there is no sensor size advantage in this case? Is then 7D the new low noise king?

It certainly seems to be among cameras with APS-C sensors.

Comparing with the 1D3 is trickier. As I wrote above, my sense is that absent all noise reduction, the 1D3 may still be a bit better than the 7D resampled, but that when appropriate NR is applied, the 7D output can be equalized in practical terms. This may be enough for many. (Remember that the 7D is benefiting from almost 3 years of additional sensor technology development.)

mfurman wrote:
Do you think that 7D is going to be better than, let's say, Nikon D3s?

No. I know that the D3 is cleaner than the 1D3 at ISOs above 800 (I've directly compared both), and the D3s is claimed by Nikon to be even better than the D3.

It will be interesting to see where Canon takes the 1D4 which is expected to be APS-H. Since the total light gathering ability of an APS-H sensor is less than that of a full frame sensor, the sensor technology in the 1D4 will have to go some distance to equalize with the D3s at a common resolution.

But since the 7D appears to be better than the D300s in these terms, perhaps Canon can pull this off.

Oct 14, 2009 at 11:10 AM

rd4tile
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p.1 #17 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

After shooting the 1D3 for the last 2 years and now the 7D, for me (at this point) the 7D files don't have that tack sharp clean look I'm used to from the 1D3 at normal screen size. It's hard to describe because the resolution is there, I guess "not as smooth" is as good as any way of putting it. I still like the 7D a lot for all of it's other features and I feel once Aperture supports it I may find it to be better then what I'm seeing now.

Oct 14, 2009 at 11:40 AM

PhotogDave
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p.1 #18 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

You have seen the images I posted at ISO 1600, and there isnt a 7D image out there at ISO 1600 that approaches that sharpness and detail and noise free image as the 1D3 images I posted. And those were RAW with no NR and no additional sharpening(default at 3 in DPP).

I'd be happy to email anyone the RAW image for them to play with themselves. I did this for a FM user already. He sent a PM to me because he didnt want to do it here, I emailed him the RAW image for his full evaluation.

I compared the 1D3 and D3 side by side as well, the D3 only having maybe a 1/3 stop better performance over the Canon.
And in actuallity, it may not have been as much better as it was just different. They really seem to produce almost identical noise at same levels, but the Nikon had a different look. When viewing side by side, the D3 had less Chromiance noise than canon.
From what users say, thats the approach Nikon takes on NR, they spend more effort on reducing Chromiance noise than Luminance. The Luminance levels were almost identical. I put the DPP slider to 1 on Chromiance and then they were almost indestinquishable.

Thats said, the 2 are pretty equal, and so there are users here that conclude the 7D 1.6x 18mp sensor is equal to the D3 or better.....are you kidding. Wake up. New ISO king. Boy thats wishful thinking.

There is no way the 7D produces a cleaner image than the 1D3 or the Nikon D3 or even the 5D2. Keep telling yourself that if you want. I dare someone to show me an image with the clarity and noise free and sharp images at ISO 1600 as I have posted above to match the 1D3 from a 7D. There not out there. If you post them, post the original from RAW with no NR and 100% crop as well as I did. Be ready to back that up with a RAW file as I did. I'll send anyone some RAW files to look and see for themselves. Not just "because I said so".

So lets see them. Lets see those super clean, detailed, 18MP sharp 7D images. Theres a bunch right?

HERES another link to some ISO3200 shots!. Using Caon 24-70 f2.8L AT 2.8. Not known for the best, but look at the peach fuzz in these shots. These were quick kid snap shots done in total darkness at a wedding recently. The only light was candle light, and some twinkle lights. Rest from my flash and diffuser. Not best shots but hey, who else could get these, but just fun snaps for the kids etc. But look at the sharpness at ISO3200 and f2.8. The noise isnt an issue at all, all the peach fuzz is still there. From a little ol 10mp camera. The 7D cant do this.

And I'll send any one of these RAWS to anybody, anytime for their own trial.
Uh, the one with the tree was just to see if my calibration was good today. I had to recalibrate my lenses...again. I did it 2 months ago, but for some reason, they have to be checked on this body and recalibrated ever so often....who knows, its Canon. Shot at f2.8 at roughly 50yards at 200mm. Its spot on now.

Where are these shots from the 7D this detailed shot wide open on anything. Not stopped down.

Oct 14, 2009 at 12:16 PM

PhotogDave
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p.1 #19 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

rd4tile wrote:
After shooting the 1D3 for the last 2 years and now the 7D, for me (at this point) the 7D files don't have that tack sharp clean look I'm used to from the 1D3 at normal screen size. It's hard to describe because the resolution is there, I guess "not as smooth" is as good as any way of putting it. I still like the 7D a lot for all of it's other features and I feel once Aperture supports it I may find it to be better then what I'm seeing now.

Exactly, I posted just after you finished typing. Check the linked photos I posted, from one 1D3 user to another, these are sharp and detailed as opposed to 7D stuff floating around. Yes, the 7Ds are good, but not what you come to expect from this new camera and reslution etc. And none of this I posted has been sharpened at all or any NR. All RAW straight to Jpeg just for this.

Oct 14, 2009 at 12:20 PM

jorkata
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p.1 #20 · Image Quality: 7D vs 1D Mark III?

PhotogDave wrote:
There is no way the 7D produces a cleaner image than the 1D3 or the Nikon D3 or even the 5D2. Keep telling yourself that if you want.

Completely agree.

People get carried away too much by this image-level noise ethos.

It's like - as long as a camera has lots and lots of pixels, noise is not a problem anymore.
You just have to downsize and all the noise is magically gone and the 7D, for example, is as good as the 1D3 (if not better).

If that's what people want to believe, that's fine with me. I fully respect all beliefs.

Oct 14, 2009 at 02:31 PM

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