Zeiss look?

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Archive 2009 · Zeiss look?

mudsill
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p.10 #1 · Zeiss look?

Samuli Vahonen wrote:
While processing summer holiday photos found one photo which to me re-presents the Zeiss look. I had different compositions which work better "artistically" but didn't presented the Zeiss look as well as this exposure.

Contax Planar T* 1.7/50 @ f/2.5 (between 2 and 2.8), 1/640s, ISO 100:
This image is copyrighted by the owner

Yes, that is the look.

Dec 12, 2009 at 10:18 PM

burningheart
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p.10 #2 · Zeiss look?

Samuli I like that shot, when I look at it, I gives me a feeling I am actually there.

Dec 12, 2009 at 11:33 PM

philber
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p.10 #3 · Zeiss look?

If you are right, Velu, why did I sell my Canon lenses to replace them with Zeiss?
But even if I got my hands on a Canon prime and did the comparison you suggest, the choice of subject would bear an influence on the result. If I chose a brick wall, for example, which is good to compare sharpness, it would be very difficult to prove that the Zeiss had any more 3D effect than the Canon

. It would take quite a few different shots to approach a balanced view of how these lenses stack up.

Dec 13, 2009 at 08:41 AM

kosmoskatten
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p.10 #4 · Zeiss look?

Samuli: oikein hyviin! That shot is right on the money for me with contrast, Zeiss colors and pop. It is a little on the warm side - just as I want it. It is not over the top in any way. Great shot.

The Zeiss/Contax lenses won me over many years ago and for me the "peak" in analog photography was with the Contax G lenses which all were stunning; sharp, superb contrast and color and matched with Fuji Reala performed well in all types of light; flat, contrasty etc.

Dec 13, 2009 at 09:29 AM

Velu01
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p.10 #5 · Zeiss look?

philber wrote:
If you are right, Velu, why did I sell my Canon lenses to replace them with Zeiss?
But even if I got my hands on a Canon prime and did the comparison you suggest, the choice of subject would bear an influence on the result. If I chose a brick wall, for example, which is good to compare sharpness, it would be very difficult to prove that the Zeiss had any more 3D effect than the Canon

. It would take quite a few different shots to approach a balanced view of how these lenses stack up.

Phil, guess you did replace your Canon lenses because you are convinced that Zeiss ones perform better ?

Guess you came to that descision after checking pictures on the internet, discussions on fora and, last but not least, experiencing yourselve.
It's just that I'm not sure if that kinda 3D effect is a "Zeiss-effect" or not "just" a using-quality-lenses-at-wide-open-aperture-thing ?

I did read somewhere that (certain?) Zeiss lenses appear to give less contrast to the out of focus areas, which results in overal picture with more "depth" ( 3-D).
Now those things you can only compare on the spot, exchanging lenses (only).

Guess the reason that I'm discussing things, it's just that I own too much Canon glass !

Rgds
Velu

PS. Let me state as well that I frequent this part of FM only VERY recent so I have a lot to read and see

Dec 13, 2009 at 12:00 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.10 #6 · Zeiss look?

Velu01 wrote:
Guess you came to that descision after checking pictures on the internet, discussions on fora and, last but not least, experiencing yourselve.
I'm not philber but I had a lot of Canon glass and definitely would not have sold* based on discussion forums/internet. I had lenses what majority of people consider "great", e.g. 85/1.2, 135/2, 300/2.8IS, 180/3.5, 17-40 + pile of non-L primes. I wasn't very happy with any of the Canon's except 300/2.8, which is way too big to carry just for fine art photography. So I sold all of them.

At least I made decision based on own experience with Zeiss (Contax and ZF), not based on undersized 1000pix web thumbnails. I constantly print my work to A3+ size and I prefer to base on my decisions to the prints, not to any size images in screen.

* = take the hit compared to price what I paid and what I got on 2nd hand market

Velu01 wrote:
It's just that I'm not sure if that kinda 3D effect is a "Zeiss-effect" or not "just" a using-quality-lenses-at-wide-open-aperture-thing ?
Zeiss look is not depth of field dependent. Thou it's typically most easiest to see in images with shallow depth of field, it can also be present in photos in which everything is in focus. As an example (not my photos, forum member foxbat owns these) one of the most famous examples:
This image is copyrighted by the owner

Links to photobucket to these same photos: link

Dec 13, 2009 at 01:04 PM

philber
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p.10 #7 · Zeiss look?

Velu01 wrote:

Guess you came to that descision after checking pictures on the internet, discussions on fora and, last but not least, experiencing yourselve.
It's just that I'm not sure if that kinda 3D effect is a "Zeiss-effect" or not "just" a using-quality-lenses-at-wide-open-aperture-thing ?

I did read somewhere that (certain?) Zeiss lenses appear to give less contrast to the out of focus areas, which results in overal picture with more "depth" ( 3-D).

Velu, I would never sell anything based on Interet fora. I bought my first Zeiss lens before I knew this corner of FM. I wanted something better than my EF 50 f:1.4, but was not ready for 50L with its high price and mixed reputation. I tried it, loved it, and now, 18 months later, my lineup is at last all Zeiss.

Dec 13, 2009 at 05:05 PM

Velu01
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p.10 #8 · Zeiss look?

Thanks Samuli and Phil !

Off course you guy's did not sell all just because of some fora chit chat.

It initially triggers your interest, and so got mine.
As a photographer you want to improve and grow.
And partly, that's possible using great tools.

Anyway, you got my attention and I'll be checking this site regulary

Thanks
Velu

PS @Samuli I agree bout the 300 2.8IS ... it's THAT nice that I often "forget" it's size and drag it around to take portraits

Dec 13, 2009 at 06:56 PM

Grenache
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p.10 #9 · Zeiss look?

While I think that a 3D look can be achieved at least to some extent with any lens, some lenses clearly have a better shot at it than others. I ran across this one this weekend. It was shot with a Canon 17-40 @f/8 (so not a wide open phenomenon), and it looks plenty 3D at least to me. It was shot on an IR converted camera.

The only problem is that I have shot several thousand images (vis and IR) over the years with this lens, and the only one at risk of looking 3D is this one. By contrast, my cheap Zeiss 50/1.7 kicks out 3D looking images about every third shot. While lighting is important, the lenses do influence the probability of the look happening.

My two pennies,
Jim

Dec 13, 2009 at 07:25 PM

Samuli Vahonen
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p.10 #10 · Zeiss look?

Jim, nice shot from 17-40. There edge of the roof and forest background shows something looking like 3D.

I don't have IR camera but I have taken IR photos with Hoya R72 filter, which I have at 67mm size. I tried it with 17-40 and liked results but 67mm vignetted too much, but center of image looked very nice, I have never liked 17-40 results in normal color, or at least after getting Contax Distagon T* 2.8/28 I didn't even want to use 17-40.

Grenache wrote:
While I think that a 3D look can be achieved at least to some extent with any lens, some lenses clearly have a better shot at it than others.

I have randomly got success with Canon lenses to get 3D look to photos, mainly with 85/1.2mkII stopped down to f/2.2-2.5 and with 135/2 stopped to f/3.2-4, few times even with 50/1.4 stopped down to f/2.8. But the major difference is that with Canon I really had to try and still success was random. Also even if I got decent 3D to Canon photo it may not look "being there" as large print, which I think is because lack of micro contrast.

With Leica Summicron 50/2 & Elmarit 90/2.8 I have not got much success on 3D, I think I have ONLY ONE photo showing some 3D. But 80-200/4 zoom is in different league, from 80mm to 135mm it has strong tendency to produce quite strong 3D and it does it pretty often.

Dec 13, 2009 at 08:19 PM

philber
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p.10 #11 · Zeiss look?

Nice shot, Jim! I also agree with your (and Samuli's) way of putting things. Some lenses make us work really more than others to give us a 3D result. And it has nothing to do with shooting wide open. I almost never shoot wide open, and a number of my shots (thanks Zeiss) still have been labeled 3D by this august body.

Dec 13, 2009 at 09:03 PM

Grenache
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p.10 #12 · Zeiss look?

Thanks, guys.

Samuli, I am working off of cropped bodies, so even a 58mm R72 worked for me without vignetting back before I got a camera converted. My 17-40 has been great with IR, but I too have not used it much for normal vis spectrum. Not sure why it would perform so much better with IR (even false color IR) than it appears to with normal color.

Clearly, I need to move to FF so that I don't have to use that lens on its wide side and can use others to get the most out of my shooting. Hmmm....let me try that argument on the wife....

Ummm. Nope. Some kind of logic about needing to find new employment prior to buying expensive camera bodies. Oh well.
Jim

Dec 13, 2009 at 10:34 PM

burningheart
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p.10 #13 · Zeiss look?

A couple of the Zeiss IR lens

ZF-IR 50

ZF-IR 85

Dec 14, 2009 at 02:43 AM

Gary Clennan
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p.10 #14 · Zeiss look?

Very nice Burningheart!

Dec 14, 2009 at 02:58 AM

Grenache
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p.10 #15 · Zeiss look?

Burningheart, what constitutes a "Zeiss ZF-IR lens"? How does that differ from a ZF 85? Front element replaced with a filter? Or are you just saying that you used an IR filter with the ZF 85? If so, which filter? Looks like you got really dark skies. Did you use a far IR one?

Puzzled.
Jim

Dec 14, 2009 at 03:41 AM

Lotusm50
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p.10 #16 · Zeiss look?

burningheart wrote:
A couple of the Zeiss IR lens

ZF-IR 50

ZF-IR 85

OK. Where did you get those? I wasn't aware that they ever became available, outside of a few prototypes. The last I checked there was no information on any potential release date.

Dec 14, 2009 at 03:56 AM

burningheart
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p.10 #17 · Zeiss look?

Gary Clennan wrote:
Very nice Burningheart!

Thanks Gary.

Grenache wrote:
Burningheart, what constitutes a "Zeiss ZF-IR lens"? How does that differ from a ZF 85? Front element replaced with a filter? Or are you just saying that you used an IR filter with the ZF 85? If so, which filter? Looks like you got really dark skies. Did you use a far IR one?

Puzzled.
Jim

They are exactly the same lens, just a different coating to eliminate hot spots. On the 85 shot I used a Heliopan RG1000. On the 50 shot I used a B+W 093 and both were shot on my 5D MKII modified for Full Spectrum by Life Pixel.

Lotusm50 wrote:

OK. Where did you get those? I wasn't aware that they ever became available, outside of a few prototypes. The last I checked there was no information on any potential release date.

shphoto-gmbh on ebay. If you search Zeiss IR you will find 3 listed. I have all three(25,50 and 85). I've had mine for well over a year. They could be prototypes, came fully boxed and identified as IR version, the lens themselves are marked as IR. Everything was included as if it was a regular Zeiss ZF lens, except no hoods. I'm not sure shphoto-gmbh got all the prototypes or they are getting zeiss to special make these, as from what I read Zeiss does do IR lens on special request only. I have only seen them available directly from this ebayseller.

Edited on Dec 14, 2009 at 05:46 AM · View previous versions

Dec 14, 2009 at 05:42 AM

morpheus2891
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p.10 #18 · Zeiss look?

stupid question... do the IR lenses not work for normal color photo... is there some kind of color cast or... just curious

Dec 14, 2009 at 05:43 AM

burningheart
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p.10 #19 · Zeiss look?

Havent really tested to any extent but no color cast but there is a slight loss of sharpness due to the different coating. One day I may a indepth test.

Dec 14, 2009 at 05:52 AM

Lotusm50
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p.10 #20 · Zeiss look?

burningheart wrote:

shphoto-gmbh on ebay.

Oh. Those guys. One of the biggest rip-off shops around. If you don't mind me saying so. Their prices for stuff are usually 50-100% higher than everyone else.

burningheart wrote:If you search Zeiss IR you will find 3 listed. I have all three(25,50 and 85). I've had mine for well over a year. They could be prototypes, came fully boxed and identified as IR version, the lens themselves are marked as IR. Everything was included as if it was a regular Zeiss ZF lens, except no hoods. I'm not sure shphoto-gmbh got all the prototypes or they are getting zeiss to special make these, as from what I read Zeiss does do IR lens on special request only. I have only seen them available directly from this ebayseller.

I have seen these before. They must be prototypes, they seem to have a way to get prototypes out of Zeiss -- early number ZF's, etc. I also considered these to be way overpriced, and little more than collector curiosities. But, if you've got deep pockets and absolutely must have them, feel free to make this guy (his name is Boris) rich. At the very least, you have a few rarities. I'll have to ask Zeiss (or Cosina) about their anticipated availability of these lenses.

Dec 14, 2009 at 12:50 PM

burningheart
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p.10 #21 · Zeiss look?

I have bought a few lens from Boris and in all cases I have never overpaid a reasonable price. When I bought the Zeiss-IRs they had a small markup above the price of regular ZFs (about $50-$100). Since then the price has increased by a few hundred dollars and there is no way I would pay that much. When I bought my Oly 250 F2 it was lower priced than what other sellers were selling for.

So Boris has treated me good pricewise, but I agree a lot of their stuff is priced way too high and I won't pay those prices. Give me reasonable prices I'll buy from you, start to inflate I'll go elsewhere.

Dec 14, 2009 at 07:19 PM

Lotusm50
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p.10 #22 · Zeiss look?

Wow. Then you must have got a pretty good deal. They are currently asking $1234 for the ZF 50/1.4 in IR form, when the regular ZF costs $550. Similar examples abound. The one I most recently noticed is something they are charging $298 when there are at least a half dozen sellers around the internet selling the same exact item for $115-125. So maybe Boris likes you. ;-)

burningheart wrote:
I have bought a few lens from Boris and in all cases I have never overpaid a reasonable price. When I bought the Zeiss-IRs they had a small markup above the price of regular ZFs (about $50-$100). Since then the price has increased by a few hundred dollars and there is no way I would pay that much. When I bought my Oly 250 F2 it was lower priced than what other sellers were selling for.

So Boris has treated me good pricewise, but I agree a lot of their stuff is priced way too high and I won't pay those prices. Give me reasonable prices I'll buy from you, start to inflate I'll go elsewhere.

Dec 14, 2009 at 08:31 PM

Grenache
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p.10 #23 · Zeiss look?

burningheart wrote:

Grenache wrote:
Burningheart, what constitutes a "Zeiss ZF-IR lens"? How does that differ from a ZF 85? Front element replaced with a filter? Or are you just saying that you used an IR filter with the ZF 85? If so, which filter? Looks like you got really dark skies. Did you use a far IR one?

Puzzled.
Jim

They are exactly the same lens, just a different coating to eliminate hot spots. On the 85 shot I used a Heliopan RG1000. On the 50 shot I used a B+W 093 and both were shot on my 5D MKII modified for Full Spectrum by Life Pixel.

Lotusm50 wrote:

Thanks. How bad was the hot spot on an original ZF 85?

Dec 15, 2009 at 12:23 AM

burningheart
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p.10 #24 · Zeiss look?

Jim I can't say for the 85 as I don't have a ZF-85 ( I know complete the collection) but here is some tests results I did on the Zeiss lens I have. Its not fully scientific so there is room for error.

Aperture with filter when a hot spot starts to show - LifePixel is on IR only camera that was modified for IR, the other two were filters on lens.

Zeiss ZF 21
LifePixel 715 - 5.6
B+W 093 850 -unable to filter
Heliopan 1000 - unable to filter

Zeiss ZF 25
LifePixel 715 - None
B+W 093 850 -8
Heliopan 1000 -5.6

Zeiss ZF 25-IR
LifePixel 715 - None
B+W 093 850 -None
Heliopan 1000 - None

Zeiss ZF 35
LifePixel 715 - none
B+W 093 850 - 11
Heliopan 1000 - 5.6

Zeiss ZF 50 (1.4)
LifePixel 715 - 8
B+W 093 850 - 5.6
Heliopan 1000 - 5.6

Zeiss ZF 50 (1.4) IR
LifePixel 715 -None
B+W 093 850 - None
Heliopan 1000 - None
* There was one set of tests that had the 850 and 1000 show a hot spot at F8, but I haven't been able to duplicate it.

Zeiss ZF 85 IR
LifePixel 715 - None
B+W 093 850 -None
Heliopan 1000 - None

Zeiss ZF 100
LifePixel 715 - None
B+W 093 850 - 5.6
Heliopan 1000 - 4

Edited on Mar 14, 2010 at 03:11 PM · View previous versions

Dec 15, 2009 at 04:45 AM

Grenache
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p.10 #25 · Zeiss look?

Thanks for the fantastic rundown. I have used but do not yet own a ZE 85. I never got to test it for IR when I rented it. I also intend to pick up the new 21/2.8, but I am on the fence between that and a 24mm TSE.

The ZE100 would also be on my short list, but I am likely to pick up a 300 prime from an as yet undetermined vendor and a 200mm f/4 micro Nikkor.

That is the rough scheme for the next year or two, but given that I get laid off in Feb and do not have a new gig lined up yet, this plan is somewhat academic.

Not that such info is politically correct on this forum, I have had good IR success with the following lenses, none of which have a hot spot unless you are unlucky enough to have the sun somewhere in the edge of the frame. In that case, I have often seen a fogged center hot spot even though it would seem more like flare based on sun requirement.

Canon 17-40/4L
Canon 24-70/2.8L
Canon 100/2.8 macro
Canon 200/2.8L II

Leica 50/2 (f/4 onwards)
Minolta Rokkor 58/1.2 (f/2.8 onwards)

Cheers,
Jim

Dec 16, 2009 at 01:09 AM


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