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Archive 2009 · Zeiss look?
  
 
StevenPA
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p.9 #1 · Zeiss look?


I'm sorry, Tri. I'm only seeing 3D in the first and second pics. Stronger 3D in the second.

Oct 16, 2009 at 07:21 AM
Jim Schemel
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p.9 #2 · Zeiss look?


Shot with my Zeiss 60mm S-Planar Makro on 5D
-Jim



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Oct 16, 2009 at 11:49 AM
brainiac
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p.9 #3 · Zeiss look?


So what about my suggestion in the old thread that it is really to do with polarisation of light? Look at the edge of this fellow's lower right cheek, where there is a brighter patch behind him, surrounded by darker. See the dark fringe along the surface of his cheek where his cheek is actually reflecting and refracting darkness from the darker areas almost immediately behind.


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In my experience these edge effects are not confined to Zeiss lenses, and I have often noticed them on my 200 f1.8 which is also a superbly 3D lens. Viewed along the plane, most surfaces reflect/refract, and the light is often polarized by the surface. I have looked for this effect in my own vision, and surprisingly, I found lots of it. You can see it if you focus on the edge of a pencil which transit's a high contrast edge in the background, like the edge of a window. Light and shadow seem to bleed along the edge of the pencil, creating contrast against the background. The effect is a class of information which intensifies edges and gives you information about the 3D field. You can see this by holding up a finger horizontally and looking past it to the vertical edge of the window. Focus your eyes on the window edge and your attention on the 'bokeh' of your finger's edge. For me, there are two main things to notice: first, the bokeh of my eyes has hard edges, like Zeiss bokeh. The darkening of the sky through the window due to my unfocussed finger can have a very abrupt and sharply delineated edge, not a soft continuous tonal blend, and if you look carefully you can even see a lighter band above the darker. Yes - your finger actually lighten's the sky. This is positive interference - light is after all a set of waves. The smooth soft bokeh of Leica lenses seems to me to be an engineered fiction. Secondly, the corner of the bright sky appears to bite a little serif into my finger. If you turn your finger so that it is only 20 degrees or so from the vertical so that the bright sky is just a dagger, you see that the bright serif spreads further along the finger's edge. This is the same effect as the darkening on the edge of this fellow's cheek. The way light behaves around edges which are flush with the axis of propagation is quite complex, and I question the veracity of a lens which is designed to hide these effects.

Now look at philber's scultpure shot.


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How is it that the sculpture looks strongly 3D against a very sharply focussed background? I think a lens that handles edge superposition correctly provides 3D clues all over the surfaces and edges of subjects. I think these 3D-inclined lenses show natural edge contrast that other lenses mess up. It doesn't require bokeh to show up, it is subtly and subliminally discernible in all edges of things in a 3D field, even when both foreground and background are hyperfocussed. Get edge contrast slightly wrong, and exit 3D look with a whimper.

Oct 16, 2009 at 12:48 PM
khidhir
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p.9 #4 · Zeiss look?


Paul Yi wrote:
I don't know what it is....but, definitely there is something about this particular lens.

C/Y Planar 100/2.0





WOW....I thought my GAS is over.

Oct 16, 2009 at 01:46 PM
Lotusm50
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p.9 #5 · Zeiss look?


brainiac wrote:
Now look at philber's scultpure shot.

How is it that the sculpture looks strongly 3D against a very sharply focussed background? I think a lens that handles edge superposition correctly provides 3D clues all over the surfaces and edges of subjects. I think these 3D-inclined lenses show natural edge contrast that other lenses mess up. It doesn't require bokeh to show up, it is subtly and subliminally discernible in all edges of things in a 3D field, even when both foreground and background are hyperfocussed. Get edge contrast slightly wrong, and exit 3D look with a whimper.



Yes. It doesn't require bokeh or OOF areas for 3-D qualities to show up. Here are 2 more examples: First Zeiss ZF 18/3.5 at f8, the second Zeiss ZF 35/2.0 at f5.6


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Oct 16, 2009 at 02:33 PM
Andrew Gough
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p.9 #6 · Zeiss look?


I Agree with Richard, its all about the transition...

Here is an image that demonstrates the edge qualities of the N 50mm F/1.4 @ F/1.4

FYI: The red around the black pole is colour bleed from the lee coloured grad that I used.



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Oct 16, 2009 at 03:46 PM
philber
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p.9 #7 · Zeiss look?


I would like to add a few comments to Richard's brilliant exposé. One should not conclude that lenses offering more "3D effect" are "better" than others. For exmaple, the Planar 50 which I used for this statue shot is not a sharpness king, nor is it as perfect as some others regarding CA, etc... So 3D ability should be viewed as one virtue among others, rather than the sum of all virtues. The rest is up to user preference. It is fair to say, though, that Zeiss' ability to imbue all its lenses with a strong 3D capability inspires confidence in their technical ability and proficiency.
BTW, I was today at the French Salon de la Photo, and got my hands on the ZE18, ZE21 and ZE 28. Choosing is like dying... and magnificent shot IMHO, Andrew.

Oct 16, 2009 at 05:03 PM
StevenPA
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p.9 #8 · Zeiss look?


Andrew, that's an amazing shot. Excellent composition and colours, and 3D (in keeping with the thread).

If I could ask, have you used a C/Y 50/1.4, and how does the N compare?

Oct 16, 2009 at 05:49 PM
Andrew Gough
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p.9 #9 · Zeiss look?


Hi Steven, thanks for the kind words! Unfortunately, I haven't had time to do the comparison, I do have the CZ though.

Have a look at this thread, there are more samples from the N mount:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/762543/0

Oct 22, 2009 at 02:46 AM
StevenPA
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p.9 #10 · Zeiss look?


Thanks, Andrew. I've seen that thread before. Lots of nice N50 pics in there!

Oct 22, 2009 at 02:43 PM
 



Bifurcator
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p.9 #11 · Zeiss look?


philber wrote:
I would like to add a few comments to Richard's brilliant exposé. One should not conclude that lenses offering more "3D effect" are "better" than others. For exmaple, the Planar 50 which I used for this statue shot is not a sharpness king, nor is it as perfect as some others regarding CA, etc... So 3D ability should be viewed as one virtue among others, rather than the sum of all virtues. The rest is up to user preference. It is fair to say, though, that Zeiss' ability to imbue all its lenses with a strong 3D capability inspires confidence in their technical ability and proficiency.
BTW, I was today at the French Salon de la Photo, and got my hands on the ZE18, ZE21 and ZE 28. Choosing is like dying... and magnificent shot IMHO, Andrew.



I don't get it. All I see is very narrow DOF in some images. In the wider DOF images posted here I see nothing special at all. Certainly nothing I can't achieve in any other "sharp" lens - including even some P&S cameras. What is this "3D' aspect you speak of? I think it's the imaginations of the viewers here being acted on by the power of suggestion. It looks like DOF to me - plain and simple. Maybe you could elaborate?

Oct 22, 2009 at 04:49 PM
d_chiesa
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p.9 #12 · Zeiss look?


Bifurcator wrote:
I don't get it. All I see is very narrow DOF in some images. In the wider DOF images posted here I see nothing special at all. Certainly nothing I can't achieve in any other "sharp" lens - including even some P&S cameras. What is this "3D' aspect you speak of? I think it's the imaginations of the viewers here being acted on by the power of suggestion. It looks like DOF to me - plain and simple. Maybe you could elaborate?


Not again, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!

BTW, i don't get it either... MAYBE in a good print, but in 800px web pics...

Oct 22, 2009 at 05:21 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.9 #13 · Zeiss look?


Hi Andrew,

Beautiful shot of the boat--a great example of 3-D. I have to say that I don't quite agree with Richard's analysis as there are more striking cues to 3-D that really make the shots he analyzed look 3-D. First, Richard's great shot of the man at what looks like a wedding with the 35mm f/1.4 dramatically shows the cue of relative size. The man's face is huge in the frame and the other people in the background--that are still discernible as people--have tiny faces in comparison. This strongly tells our brains that the man in the foreground is much closer than the people in the background. Now if the lens blurred the background a bit more so that the people were no longer discernible as people then the 3-D effect would be reduced a lot. Jim Schimel's picture just above Richard's post is also a great example of using relative size to create 3-D appearance.

Philber's shot is a great example of how texture gradients create a 3-D effect. This shot actually has two different texture gradients and their difference in size even enhances the 3-D effect more. The texture gradients are the windows in the buildings in the background. These provide an easy context to highlight the real world differences in space and our brains can easily process this sort of textured pattern to interpret 3-D.

Both these shots are great examples of 3-D, but given the strong cues for 3-D in both of them I think it is the photographers skill and not the lenses that are causing the 3-D effect in these shots. They are composing the shots extremely well to create a 3-D effect and I suspect would look strongly 3-D regardless of the lens used. This is not to say that Zeiss lenses are not superior to other lenses in creating 3-D effect. I think they might well be, but these shots, IMO, show other cues rather than what the lens can do. Specifically, what the lens can do is make the foreground image sharp compared to the background and this creates an effect much like our real world vision. The central part of our vision (called the fovea) perceives an image with a lot more sharpness than the periphery of our vision because this central part has cells that capture the image with a higher resolution. Thus a natural cue to 3-D is a sharpness in the center than tails off with less sharpness. Now I suspect--and I know no way of testing--that Zeiss lenses do a good job of mimicking the fall off in sharpness between center and periphery that our eyes naturally have. To little fall off and this cue wouldn't be present. Too much fall off and our brains wouldn't perceive it as 3-D. Zeiss seems to get it right.

So, IMO, a lens can help create a 3-D effect by getting the sharpness fall off right, but the shots that show 3-D effects without these differences in sharpness fall off do so by great composition and use other 3-D cues not dependent on the lens. Further if I am right about this fall off difference being what the lens offers, then it is probably also true that the lens' contribution to the 3-D effect will also depend on the aperture and subject distance of the shot. Zeiss lenses at typical shooting distances of 5 to 10 meters seem to create the effect wide open. Other lenses with smoother bokeh may create the best 3-D effects stopped down a bit. Good photographers, and there are a lot here, will know their lenses and know at what aperture and shooting distance their lenses create the best 3-D results. From my observations--and a bit of my own shooting--Leica lenses that Richard hates for 3-D, may well fall off and create too much blur wide open to create an optimal 3-D effect, but they seem to do much better stopped down a bit, but this is just my idle speculation. Thanks for all the great shots and interesting analysis.

Oct 22, 2009 at 05:26 PM
Bifurcator
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p.9 #14 · Zeiss look?


Just for the record (sorry d_chiesa ) I agree they have a popping 3Dish look to them. I've just seen that same look on almost every other lens capable of F1.2 and many many F1.4 lenses. I totally got that off my OM Zuiko 85mm F2 pictured center/right. etc. etc. Anyway, it's a neat affect of flat ("nice glass") lenses, I like it!



Oct 23, 2009 at 06:51 PM
Jeffrey
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p.9 #15 · Zeiss look?


As a newbie to Zeiss lenses (but not to fine art photography), I've enjoyed all this banter. I have an arsenal of quality L glass from 14II to 500 f4. I've made stunning prints. I hope the ZE's that I've waited for will be a notch finer, although a small notch is all I can expect. One thing that bothers me about the image postings on this thread is that we have no idea of the type of processing (and jpegging) that was done to each image. And further, the assortment of different cameras used makes comparisons impossible. For example, my friend actually likes the color rendition better on his 40D than on his 5D. Were any of these posted images sharpened, saturated (or leveled), were they converted from RAW or shot as jpoeg, and if so, with which camera settings (there are hundreds). Certainly, I can take any Canon lens made 'flat looking' image and make it look like a zeiss color image with a minor adjustment. The only tests I'm interested in are made with the same camera, and identical or NO processing, and viewed at 100%. A tripod must be used, and shots made under identical lighting and exposure settings. I have some issues with the look of some images I produce on my 1Ds3 and canon L glass that I am hoping will improve with the ZE-21 that I will have next week. Maybe, if I'm lucky, I'll get to experience the Zeiss Look myself!

Oct 25, 2009 at 06:10 PM
philber
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p.9 #16 · Zeiss look?


Jeffrey, I got my ZE 21 yesterday, and enjoyed good light today. You will not be disappointed, it is a great lens!






  Canon EOS 5D Mark II    21 mm    f/6.3    1/200 sec    100 ISO    0.0 EV  



Oct 25, 2009 at 06:25 PM
Orio
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p.9 #17 · Zeiss look?


Contax Distagon 2/28 on 5D:
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Oct 26, 2009 at 02:31 AM
philber
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p.9 #18 · Zeiss look?


Great shot, Orio! Did you use one of the first ZE 28, or another lens 5ZF, ZK, Contax?). I ask because I had to return my ZE 28 yesterday, but would definitely not return the lens you used...

Oct 26, 2009 at 06:10 AM
Sirfishalot
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p.9 #19 · Zeiss look?


Cam Woo wrote:
What exactly is the "Zeiss look" that is frequently described here? Can it be replicated in post processing?


Cam,
I don't think it something that can be replicated, the lenses definitely have their own character.
Not sure I understand the specifics of how they render scenes, but I know that I like it

JayT

C/Y Planar 100/2 on 1D Mark III:



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Oct 26, 2009 at 06:30 AM
steve g
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p.9 #20 · Zeiss look?


This thread has certainly been an eye-opener (literally) for me.

But I need to know this: the images posted (I assume) are going to be the better shots in anyone's collection. If there is truly a "3D" effect, does it show in every image one takes with these lenses (assuming proper exposure, focus etc.) Otherwise I'm left wondering if the 3D effect only occurs in certain conditions (of light, contrast, etc) and may be more "light dependent" than lens dependent??

Whatever the answer, I'm stunned by the amazing quality of shots on this thread and have advertised a kidney, a cornea and my 1st born son to start collecting the "Zeiss look"

Oct 26, 2009 at 01:05 PM
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