Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

FM Forums \| Lighting & Studio Techniques \| Join Upload & Sell	Search Used
1 2 3 4 end

Archive 2009 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked

p.2 #1 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

That's the trap of most higher end manufacturers. If they assumed that at a price of $995 they would sell 50 times as many, and sourced with a dollar calculator in hand and did some engineering refinements, the dream would come true.

I lose money during the first months or even years of every new product for this exact reason - extensive marketability oriented engineering, lots of tolling and a forward looking plan that say "If I can sell this for $XXX they will buy and I will recoup my startup expense ten fold."

Oct 08, 2009 at 06:13 PM

kenyee
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #2 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
Good observations. Technically, certain op amps and circuits object when input voltages exceed their power supply voltage. In this case, the power supply voltage dips under critical voltage from the Vagabond and the output from CSRs, RR1s, RC1s and RP controllers doesn't drop, so a latchup condition can result.

Would the remote input controllers be able to tell if the power supply voltage droops? If so, they could track/match the voltage drop and prevent the latchup condition. It does sound like only a subset of bees are affected (depending on opamp tolerances) and the likelihood of the latchup happening increases as the vagabond is drained which should cause a lower voltage droop on chargeup.

Thanks for the info on the opamps...I didn't realize you were using SMT devices all this time. I was hoping they were the big discrete opamps we used in the old ages that were trivial to solder

Oct 08, 2009 at 06:20 PM

Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked

p.2 #3 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

kenyee wrote:
Paul Buff wrote:
Good observations. Technically, certain op amps and circuits object when input voltages exceed their power supply voltage. In this case, the power supply voltage dips under critical voltage from the Vagabond and the output from CSRs, RR1s, RC1s and RP controllers doesn't drop, so a latchup condition can result.

Would the remote input controllers be able to tell if the power supply voltage droops? If so, they could track/match the voltage drop and prevent the latchup condition. It does sound like only a subset of bees are affected (depending on opamp tolerances) and the likelihood of the latchup happening increases as the vagabond is drained which should cause a lower voltage droop on chargeup.

Thanks for the info on the opamps...I didn't realize you were using SMT devices all this time. I was hoping they were the big discrete opamps we used in the old ages that were trivial to solder

Maybe possible, but quite difficult.

As for SMT, this brings lower building costs, fewer building errors and better reliability. The cost of hand insertion and soldering of big ole through hole parts drives you to Asia where you can get it done for $.50 and hour and a whole lot of rejects and failures.

Einstein is our ultimate answer and that's what the whole Cyber Commander was designed around. $29 all digital communication transceiver, none of the setup described in the link I won't repeat here, runs anywhere totally plug and play, and the 250W modeling and frosted dome are wonderful (in my biased mind).

Oct 08, 2009 at 08:35 PM

Jimmy Ho
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #4 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

The Cyber Commander looks very very nice. I can't wait for it to be released. I just hope it remains fairly small and easy to use. Also, I hope you've taken into consideration those of us who work on location in f/16 direct sunlight, the ability to actually see and read the LCD screen.

If the LCD screen won't work well in direct sunlight, then perhaps maybe you'd consider manufacturing an additional lower-cost controller with just a few buttons on it? on/off, group selection, and up/down in .3 stop increments.

Oct 09, 2009 at 04:42 AM

Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked

p.2 #5 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Jimmy Ho wrote:
The Cyber Commander looks very very nice. I can't wait for it to be released. I just hope it remains fairly small and easy to use. Also, I hope you've taken into consideration those of us who work on location in f/16 direct sunlight, the ability to actually see and read the LCD screen.

If the LCD screen won't work well in direct sunlight, then perhaps maybe you'd consider manufacturing an additional lower-cost controller with just a few buttons on it? on/off, group selection, and up/down in .3 stop increments.
Already in the very early stages.

Oct 09, 2009 at 05:44 AM

kenyee
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #6 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Jimmy Ho wrote:
maybe you'd consider manufacturing an additional lower-cost controller with just a few buttons on it? on/off, group selection, and up/down in .3 stop increments.

And be able to test fire each group separately so you can meter each light at a time...this is something the RPJrX can't do because you can't turn the knob back to where you had it after you turn it to the "off" position.
If you can add quench pin support...

Oct 09, 2009 at 04:03 PM

Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked

p.2 #7 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

kenyee wrote:
Jimmy Ho wrote:
maybe you'd consider manufacturing an additional lower-cost controller with just a few buttons on it? on/off, group selection, and up/down in .3 stop increments.

And be able to test fire each group separately so you can meter each light at a time...this is something the RPJrX can't do because you can't turn the knob back to where you had it after you turn it to the "off" position.
If you can add quench pin support...

All of this capability is in Cyber Commander and all is explained in the link. BTW, we shipped the first CC yesterday and we have a pre order list that will eat up most of our first production run of 500. The second run is in preparation now.

Here's my take on quench pin question, with a question: What happens when you set three or four speedlights, get the lighting ratios set for a nice composition, then try to control them with TTL and quench pins? Second question: What happens when you introduce the necessary time delay between a TTL sensor and the light(s) it controls, even with the very short latencies of CyberSync? Hint - look at the IGBT control discussion in "the link".

I'd love to have a discussion about this if there is any feedback as to what the implications of this whole issue are really about.

I leave it at that for now and see if any posters can figure out why we don't do that and probably never will on Cyber Commander. There's a fundamental difference in studio lighting and firing speedlights, and between TTL and manual control . . . between studio style lighting and "taking pictures".

This is not meant to be negative in any away, rather, provocative and to stimulate thinking about the big picture (no pun intended). Perhaps a new thread on this complex subject might be in order.

Oct 09, 2009 at 04:34 PM

hiepng
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #8 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
All of this capability is in Cyber Commander and all is explained in the link. BTW, we shipped the first CC yesterday and we have a pre order list that will eat up most of our first production run of 500. The second run is in preparation now.

Paul, when will the second batch be ready to ship? I just called, but the sale person said it will be on the web next week. I don't think I have a chance to get one from the first batch, hope to get it from the second batch.

Oct 09, 2009 at 06:30 PM

HappyCamp
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #9 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
The best interim workaround, until the next generation Buff lights appear, is to use a Honda generator instead of battery inverter, or to use manual control when using vagabond.

Paul,

Any idea how many lights a EU1000iA/EU2000iA generator could handle?

The EU2000iA is rated at 1600 watts (2000 watts max).
The EU1000iA is rated at 900 watts (1000 watts max).

Oct 09, 2009 at 08:28 PM

kenyee
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #10 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
we shipped the first CC yesterday
...
What happens when you set three or four speedlights, get the lighting ratios set for a nice composition, then try to control them with TTL and quench pins? Second question: What happens when you introduce the necessary time delay between a TTL sensor and the light(s) it controls, even with the very short latencies of CyberSync?

First, CONGRATS on shipping the first CC! It's always cause for celebration by the development crew when something you work on for a while goes out the door

As for TTL and quench pins, the quench pin technique is only done via one pin (much like the autothyristor quenching the flash if you use it on hotshoe flashes from my understanding of it). Most DSLRs no longer have a TTL sensor or use the TTL pins like the old days; instead, if you buy into their e/i/pTTL system, they do a pre-measurement flash before firing the real flash, but this is independent of the old TTL/quench pins (Nikon's new SB-900 flash doesn't even have the TTL/quench pins).
You'll have color consistency issues w/ hotshoe flashes I'll bet, but I'm more worried about exposure consistencies as you move around (whether the quench activation timing is different at different distances)...haven't done enough controlled tests to figure out whether either is an issue yet...

Oct 09, 2009 at 08:48 PM

kenyee
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #11 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Jimmy: I promised I'd report on how my Vagabond test went. Just got back from a shoot w/ vladphoto on MM (he brought the Vagabond and we both brought a few bees). I didn't test my AB1600's because it wasn't full day sun so we only used his two B800's mixed w/ an SB28 for an additional hair/rim light. From my roughly 100 photos (vlad ran probably 200 shots but I haven't checked to see if he had any misfires yet), there was one misfire from the bees not recycling in time because I held the shutter button down too long and fired a two shot sequence. Power adjustments went as expected. No JrX's crashed. We probably ran the Vagabond down halfway over a few hours.

So it's a big YMMV on these. I'm guessing opamp manufacturing tolerance on yours was worse than usual since now I'm the third person on this thread who hasn't had a problem running the JrX on Vagabond power...

Main negative on the JrX so far is the rotary dials are too easy to jostle out of position w/ a slight rub, e.g., if you dangle your camera at your side while fiddling w/ a softbox that the damn 25mph wind gusts rotated for the Nth time :-P It'd be nice if there was some sort of cover for the knobs or an adjustment disable button.

Oct 11, 2009 at 01:48 AM

Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked

p.2 #12 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

The bigger question is what flash unit(s) and how many? The load on the inverter determines how far the voltage drops. Zeus drops the inverter output more than 3 or 4 AB or WL.

Kenyee, were you using the remote control telephone style jack?

Oct 11, 2009 at 03:47 AM

bobbyz
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #13 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

kenyee wrote:
Power adjustments went as expected. No JrX's crashed. We probably ran the Vagabond down halfway over a few hours.

That is good news.

Main negative on the JrX so far is the rotary dials are too easy to jostle out of position w/ a slight rub, e.g., if you dangle your camera at your side while fiddling w/ a softbox that the damn 25mph wind gusts rotated for the Nth time :-P It'd be nice if there was some sort of cover for the knobs or an adjustment disable button.

That is what I was worry about those dials on the JRx.

Oct 11, 2009 at 03:54 AM

Beni
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #14 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

You can disable the knobs using the piano switches if you happen to remember which ones they are, design is rather 'duh' on those Jx's...

Oct 11, 2009 at 09:35 AM

kenyee
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #15 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
The bigger question is what flash unit(s) and how many? The load on the inverter determines how far the voltage drops. Zeus drops the inverter output more than 3 or 4 AB or WL.
Kenyee, were you using the remote control telephone style jack?

Two B800's and yes, using the telephone style jack because that's the only way the JrX can control power. We were shooting in late afternoon sun and I don't think we used full power...early on, maybe 3/4 power on one and 3/4 power on the other (one was through a softbox). What I didn't do to test it was fire both at full power because that would have brought the voltage down more. I'll do that the next chance I get and also test w/ my B1600s which we didn't need. I also suspect a Vagabond at 1/4 power would be more susceptible to the brownout latchup.

Unfortunately, I have to send the TX back for exchange (RP is covering shipping which is nice of them and what should be done) so it'll be gone for a week at least. The group A dial is a lot looser than the other two so that was one reason we were nudging it out of position.

There is a DIP switch (rightmost on TX) to disable level updates, but if you nudge it, then turn this back on, it'll set the levels to the wrong power level, but I guess it's better than nothing...

Oct 12, 2009 at 12:16 AM

Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked

p.2 #16 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Can't help too much more here because RP has never communicated with us and I don't know what voltages they are sending to the telephone jack. The power setting or AB type has no effect on the voltage drop - high power just makes the drop last longer. Might try it with one b800 and see what happens.

Oct 12, 2009 at 06:16 AM

amplexis
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #17 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul, is there any less problem if one uses the LG4X controller on the Zeus while using the Vagabond II for power?

Oct 12, 2009 at 10:25 AM

HappyCamp
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #18 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

amplexis wrote:
Paul, is there any less problem if one uses the LG4X controller on the Zeus while using the Vagabond II for power?

+1, since I own one

Oct 12, 2009 at 12:56 PM

kenyee
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #19 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
Can't help too much more here because RP has never communicated with us and I don't know what voltages they are sending to the telephone jack. The power setting or AB type has no effect on the voltage drop - high power just makes the drop last longer. Might try it with one b800 and see what happens.

No problem Paul. I'm just trying to help quantify/verify/isolate Jimmy's issue. The best I can do is a few data points (hopefully the other two posters who are running the RP w/ Vagabond will chime in w/ their test setups), but at least we can get an idea of what works (unfortunately, Jimmy sent his RPs back already or he could swap things out and isolate the issue better). It's a big YMMV, so users just have to understand that; it doesn't look as bad as it sounded though. Looks like it'll work in most situations...

Oct 12, 2009 at 02:10 PM

Tony Harrell
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #20 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

My normal set-up is a WL3200 with a Radio Popper Jrx to control the power and trigger. I still keep a PW plugged in too - just so I can trigger the light to test ratios with my Sekonic if needed. I have two Vagabond IIs.

I've also tried it using a WL3200, and an AB1600 for rim for some cycle shots. Worked fine - but, I had a few misfires - especially at the start of the session. One Vagabond per light. Never tried powering both lights through one Vagabond with a Popper controlling power - I'll give it a try...

Oct 12, 2009 at 03:00 PM

Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked

p.2 #21 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

amplexis wrote:
Paul, is there any less problem if one uses the LG4X controller on the Zeus while using the Vagabond II for power?

I can't answer this as well as I would like because I work from home. I do however monitor all communications in and out of the company and can say I have rarely seen this issue in emails to tech help.

The best information on this would come from a phone call to tech help and ask for Joe. He deals with all of these sorts of issues, by phone and email, and can give a much better answer as to the frequency and severity of this issue.

Certainly, component tolerances in the lights, the remotes and the Vagabonds can have some effect. I would ask specifically about the Zeus and remotes with Vagabond since Zeus draws more current than the other lights.

Oct 12, 2009 at 04:32 PM

derek walter
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #22 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Did a little test yesterday as I was taking some pics of stuff I'm putting up for sale.
The poppers did not work at all with an ABR800 and a B800 on a Vagabond II. I have another B800 and a WL Ultra 1800 as well, So I'm going to try it with a couple different combinations. They work marvelously with AC power.
I was planning on switching to the Commander once it's fully available, but is it safe to say that if I'm having issues with the RP's, that I'll have the same issues with the Commander?

Oct 13, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Paul Buff
Offline
Account Locked

p.2 #23 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

We will investigate what problems exist with Cyber Commander and with LG4X and Vagabond II and if there are any possible solutions. If RP wants us to do this with their product they should provide us samples.

Oct 13, 2009 at 03:37 PM

kenyee
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #24 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

derek walter wrote:
I was planning on switching to the Commander once it's fully available, but is it safe to say that if I'm having issues with the RP's, that I'll have the same issues with the Commander?

Given that we haven't full characterized when it doesn't work and whether it can be worked around by swapping parts stuff around (RP, AB, Vagabond), or whether it's some manufacturing tolerance issue, my guess would be no. There's just not enough info at this point. Like I mentioned...big YMMV...

p.s., what did you mean by "AT ALL"? Flickering like Jimmy? No flashing at all when you press the test button on the receiver?

Edited on Oct 13, 2009 at 04:45 PM · View previous versions

Oct 13, 2009 at 03:41 PM

amplexis
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #25 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
We will investigate what problems exist with Cyber Commander and with LG4X and Vagabond II and if there are any possible solutions. If RP wants us to do this with their product they should provide us samples.
i am grateful that this issue is getting attention and even if it means i end up using a hybrid communication system that mixes CC, LG4X and PW. it will let me do things within my humble budget that greatly expand my imagination.
Thank You Paul for your imagination and commitment.

Oct 13, 2009 at 04:14 PM


FM Forums \| Lighting & Studio Techniques \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 4 end