Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

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Archive 2009 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Jimmy Ho
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p.1 #1 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Hi folks,

I've been having problems with my Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II. Apparently, the JrX set does not want to work with my strobe plugged into the Vagabond II. It causes the strobe to sputter and flicker constantly, and it will not trigger at all. I have this connected via the phone jack/cord. However, when I plug the strobe into mains, it works just fine.

When the JrX is connected via the flash sync, it works just fine (just like a PW), regardless of whether or not the strobe is connected to battery or mains.

Has anyone else had this problem? Does anyone know why this problem exists?

After a talk with some Radiopopper tech, it was advised to me that my Vagabond II may not be as "clean". Hmm..it works fine w/my strobe..

Anyone want to take a stab at what's going on?

-Jimmy

Oct 07, 2009 at 03:23 AM

bacilonur
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p.1 #2 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

That blows. Good to know. Both manufacturers are going to blame the other, that's to be expected. Have you tried switching through different channels and putting some sort of ferrite/surge protector between the VB and your strobe?

Oct 07, 2009 at 05:34 AM

Paul Buff
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p.1 #3 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Hey, we can't be responsible for what another vendor does. RP did this interface with no communication or authorization from Paul C. Buff.

I can acknowledge there are some interface anomalies with multiple classic Buff lights on an inverter. The necessary brown out can affect the RJ11 remote connection and cause oddities like this. These lights were designed long before the Vagabond was conceived. You can expect the same behavior with any other sine inverter.

Oct 07, 2009 at 06:02 AM

Jimmy Ho
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p.1 #4 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Thank you for responding, Paul. I'll assume that the Alien Bee Max will not have these interface anomalies then?

Oct 07, 2009 at 05:30 PM

Paul Buff
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p.1 #5 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Jimmy Ho wrote:
Thank you for responding, Paul. I'll assume that the Alien Bee Max will not have these interface anomalies then?
Correct. Unlike most digital monolights on the market, next generation Buff lights will operate down to 40VAC without problems. Typically, with multiple lights connected to an inverter like Vagabond or Innovatronics, the inverter output drops to 60 to 70VAC at the beginning of recycle, then rises to 120VAC. This crashes the uP in most digital lights and causes some problems with the telephone style remote jack circuits in classic Buff lights. Next generation Buff lights won't be affected.

But this brings up a potentially similar situation with Cyber Commander connected via telephone connector and CSR+ or CSRB+ and classic Buff lights - every thing mentioned can tolerate the "brown out" except for the analog remote input of the classic Buff lights.

The best interim workaround, until the next generation Buff lights appear, is to use a Honda generator instead of battery inverter, or to use manual control when using vagabond.

As for remote tripping of classic Buff lights with Vagabond, either the CSR or CSRB or CSR+/CSRB+ receivers connected to the 1/8" sync jack rather than the telephone style connector will avoid these problems - but the CC will not be able to do its magic - power control grouping, etc.

I hope this adds more clarification than confusion.

Oct 07, 2009 at 05:58 PM

kenyee
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p.1 #6 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Jimmy Ho wrote:
Thank you for responding, Paul. I'll assume that the Alien Bee Max will not have these interface anomalies then?

But note that the ABMax no longer has the telephone jack analog port the RP uses. Some people seem to assume this but I asked a while back

Oct 07, 2009 at 06:30 PM

bobbyz
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p.1 #7 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Oct 07, 2009 at 07:43 PM

amplexis
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p.1 #8 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
But this brings up a potentially similar situation with Cyber Commander connected via telephone connector and CSR+ or CSRB+ and classic Buff lights - every thing mentioned can tolerate the "brown out" except for the analog remote input of the classic Buff lights.

The best interim workaround, until the next generation Buff lights appear, is to use a Honda generator instead of battery inverter, or to use manual control when using vagabond.

so how long will it be before i have CC full control using my Zeus when i am using the Vagabond II. i just aquired this setup figuring that it was fully compatible with the CC.
is nothing futureproof? do i have to wait for ZeusMax?

Oct 07, 2009 at 07:59 PM

cordellwillis
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p.1 #9 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

amplexis wrote:
is nothing futureproof? ...?

Then we would live in a world of no advancement. With advancement comes left overs. I wish the folks who make PW would have NOT attempted 'futureproofing' the Flex and Mini that some are having trouble with.

Oct 07, 2009 at 10:13 PM

amplexis
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p.1 #10 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

cordellwillis wrote:
amplexis wrote:
is nothing futureproof? ...?

Then we would live in a world of no advancement. With advancement comes left overs. I wish the folks who make PW would have NOT attempted 'futureproofing' the Flex and Mini that some are having trouble with.

i lived thru the complete collapse of innovation in the computer industry in the late 1990s when the big rule for being acquired or funded was "compatibility" with MSwindows. many great tools and interfaces died quickly when their creators accepted instant wealth. It is Paul's vision and will that make him a hero for me. I am very wary of "marketing" which is what many "professional" photographers make their living servicing which is probably why so many favor orthodox marketing.

"it's just that i read the AB online descriptions and Paul Buffs assurances that: The AC powered CSR+ and battery powered CSRB+ receivers interface between CYBER COMMANDER™ and every flash unit with a remote jack made by Paul C. Buff, Inc.™ since 1986.
Supported lights include AlienBees™, UltraZap, White Lightning Ultra, WLX Series and ZEUS™.
You can also use other manufacturer’s lights with CYBER COMMANDER™, but the function will be limited to remote tripping, grouping and the camera f-stop metering and display. Since they don’t contain a Buff-compatible remote jack the other features cannot be implemented."

i read this to mean that of course the CC would control recent products from Paul C Buff even when they were powered with a Paul C Buff Vagabond II

i guess i need to watch "Day at the Races" a few more times to understand this business.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LBIsDBC848&feature=PlayList&p=16566B493D8BED5B&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=12

Oct 07, 2009 at 10:28 PM

Jimmy Ho
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p.1 #11 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

kenyee wrote:

But note that the ABMax no longer has the telephone jack analog port the RP uses. Some people seem to assume this but I asked a while back

Was your Vagabond at full charge or nearly depleted? Know anyone close by w/ a Vagabond that you can test with? That'd isolate the issue between the RP vs. your Vagabond.

The brownout condition sounds like something that might affect the CSR+ too...run the vagabond so it's low on power and then fire it while connected to the analog port and we'd find out...

The Vagabond was at full charge. I didn't realize the ABMax doesn't have the telephone jack anymore. That's very nice. CC all the way then.

I've gone ahead and returned my Radiopopper JrX set. It didn't work for my purposes, as I mainly wanted to control my strobes while on location. I'll wait for the Cyber Commander to be released.

-Jimmy

Oct 07, 2009 at 11:35 PM

kenyee
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p.1 #12 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Jimmy: I'll hopefully be testing this on a shoot this Saturday and will post results. Did it sputter once the strobe was fired, or did it never work at all? Did you test w/ multiple JrX receivers? Just wondering how far you went debugging this to figure out what the problem was...

I also bought it to be used on location (and would do the same w/ the CC even though the controller seems a lot more useful for studio work)...certainly makes changing the power of a BD or umbrella much easier without having to fiddle w/ light stands.

p.s., I was a bit bummed when I found out the abmax didn't have the analog control port any more as well, but that's also probably why the cybersync controller for it is only $30 opposed to $80 for the cybersync+...

Oct 08, 2009 at 01:55 AM

Paul Buff
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p.1 #13 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Well, what can I say? Cyber Commander brings incredible digital control and more to all PCB lights since 1986. Any other company come even close to that? All Buff lights ever made run from Vagabond - few current high end or low end lights with digital controls do. One relatively small bug with running analog interface remote control and Vagabond at the same time and I am an evil person again who doesn't care about customers and has no vision. My god people, you jump on me for not foreseeing every possible feature that might be present in 2009 back in 1986? Has any competitor done a better job of this than Paul C. Buff? I tell the truth, good and bad, and get jumped on for it every time.

As for the Zeus question, if you're going to use it with Vagabond, plug the CSR/CSRB into the 1/8" sync jack and control power at the pack - that the best you can do in 2009.

If you're interested in exactly what's going on with every new Buff product get the info here. I have put up this info on a temporary site to get the info out ASAP - it will be on our company websites very soon.

http://www.webecool.com

Oct 08, 2009 at 02:05 AM

amplexis
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p.1 #14 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
As for the Zeus question, if you're going to use it with Vagabond, plug the CSR/CSRB into the 1/8" sync jack and control power at the pack - that the best you can do in 2009.

so if i want CC control in the field [and don't feel i can backpack a Honda generator] more than i want 2 stops i should send the Zeus back and wait for Einstein 640?
I certainly don't want to convey any sense that there is a loss of desire for a few Paul C Buff products in my life. let them be Einstein 640s.
it would be a good thing IMO to quickly update the CC product description to alert interested customers to this limitation. I assume that the CyberSync™ CST will trigger a Ranger if i get one for the times i need more light.
Live long and do great work Paul, i am grateful you are doing what you do.

Oct 08, 2009 at 02:41 AM

kenyee
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p.1 #15 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
One relatively small bug with running analog interface remote control and Vagabond at the same time and I am an evil person again who doesn't care about customers and has no vision.

Paul: no one said you were evil.
It's probably too early to ask, but why does low voltage on the analog control port freak out a cybersync+? I'm curious if it's possible to work around it in an updated cybersync+?

Sounds like the RP folks didn't test this either (you'd think it's a common enough configuration that they would have included it in their test matrix), but I'll confirm this weekend...

Oct 08, 2009 at 02:49 AM

Paul Buff
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p.1 #16 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

kenyee wrote:
Paul Buff wrote:
One relatively small bug with running analog interface remote control and Vagabond at the same time and I am an evil person again who doesn't care about customers and has no vision.

Paul: no one said you were evil.
It's probably too early to ask, but why does low voltage on the analog control port freak out a cybersync+? I'm curious if it's possible to work around it in an updated cybersync+?

Sounds like the RP folks didn't test this either (you'd think it's a common enough configuration that they would have included it in their test matrix), but I'll confirm this weekend...

This problem is not in the Cyber Sync - it is in the lights themselves. It's always been there and the same idiosyncrasies show up when using LG4X, RRI or RC1 remotes - it has existed for ever since Vagabond was introduced 8-9 years ago. Technically, the differential op amps that form the analog remote input latch up when the remote is connected via the telephone jack and the AC power drops below a critical voltage. There are just not enough people using Vagabonds and remote power control at the same time for it to have ever become a real big issue.

The only fix would be for us to recall 1/2 million lights and do some sort of retrofit.

And, Oh, the you tube link comparison sort of implies that I am a slippery salesman that cheats people - that where the "evil" statement originates.

Oct 08, 2009 at 03:18 AM

Paul Buff
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p.1 #17 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

amplexis wrote:
Paul Buff wrote:
As for the Zeus question, if you're going to use it with Vagabond, plug the CSR/CSRB into the 1/8" sync jack and control power at the pack - that the best you can do in 2009.

so if i want CC control in the field [and don't feel i can backpack a Honda generator] more than i want 2 stops i should send the Zeus back and wait for Einstein 640?
I certainly don't want to convey any sense that there is a loss of desire for a few Paul C Buff products in my life. let them be Einstein 640s.
it would be a good thing IMO to quickly update the CC product description to alert interested customers to this limitation. I assume that the CyberSync™ CST will trigger a Ranger if i get one for the times i need more light.
Live long and do great work Paul, i am grateful you are doing what you do.

Yes, you can return the Zeus if you feel you were misled. I can't update the CyberSync or it's instructions since the problem is not in the CyberSync. Can you adjust the power of the Ranger wirelessly? If not, you are not gaining anything. Are you in a shooting situation where you can't manually adjust the Zeus power and use the 1/8" sync jack to trigger it? You can fire the Ranger from CyberSync but you can't control its power via Cyber Commander.

Yes, the Einstein will do all you want, but is not 2500WS. Is the Ranger?

Oct 08, 2009 at 03:28 AM

amplexis
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p.1 #18 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
Yes, you can return the Zeus if you feel you were misled. I can't update the CyberSync or it's instructions since the problem is not in the CyberSync. Can you adjust the power of the Ranger wirelessly? If not, you are not gaining anything. Are you in a shooting situation where you can't manually adjust the Zeus power and use the 1/8" sync jack to trigger it? You can fire the Ranger from CyberSync but you can't control its power via Cyber Commander.
Yes, the Einstein will do all you want, but is not 2500WS. Is the Ranger?

so it seems that the Zeus is as limited as the Ranger in the amount of control i have when away from AC. but the Ranger is substantially lighter as a battery powered light than the Zeus powered by a Vagabond II. 14.3 lb for the ranger RX vs 25 lb for Zeus 1200 pack and Vagabond II. in my mind it is worth the pain of carrying the extra weight if i can put the Zeus on a ledge across the creek and control it's power from where i sit.
i live in a 400 sq ft cabin and have no use for any light that needs AC. all my work is out in the bush. am i missing something about where i get more remote control with CC using the Zeus than with a third party light?
everything else you are offering Paul, is a very exciting and welcome achievement.

Oct 08, 2009 at 07:23 AM

Beni
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p.1 #19 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
Well, what can I say? Cyber Commander brings incredible digital control and more to all PCB lights since 1986.

If it ever comes out of vapourware, like the max's...

Oct 08, 2009 at 08:12 AM

bobbyz
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p.1 #20 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Jimmy Ho wrote:
I've gone ahead and returned my Radiopopper JrX set. It didn't work for my purposes, as I mainly wanted to control my strobes while on location. I'll wait for the Cyber Commander to be released.

-Jimmy

Jimmy, but you would have same problem with CC (when controlling power using vagabond II) unless you upgrade to the newer digital interface lights from AB, isn't it?

Oct 08, 2009 at 01:53 PM

kenyee
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p.1 #21 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Paul Buff wrote:
Technically, the differential op amps that form the analog remote input latch up when the remote is connected via the telephone jack and the AC power drops below a critical voltage.
...
And, Oh, the you tube link comparison sort of implies that I am a slippery salesman that cheats people - that where the "evil" statement originates.

Thanks for the technical background on the issue. I appreciate it.
That makes sense...so the remote power control interface basically "crashes" (digital term, but that's effectively what the opamps are doing when they latch up...hadn't heard that term since my electronics class eons ago

)
I guess next question is whether there are better compatible opamps w/ smaller latchup voltages that can replace the current ones on the remote input port? If so, some of us would be more than happy to hack our bees for this feature if we could get a few unofficial hints

. Opamps are usually big enough that desoldering/soldering a replacement isn't a big deal unlike the surface mount stuff that is more prevalent nowadays...

I didn't even bother viewing that youtube vid earlier. I just read it as companies pushing stuff out with "features"...but just about everything does nowadays. Look at Nikon's shutter failures w/ the early D700...or Canon's white pixel issue w/ the 5DmkII...or Tamron/Sigma's lack of QC...and I won't even get into software. Everything just is more complicated now and it's hard to test all the cases so you inevitably find "quirks" in the field

Oct 08, 2009 at 02:48 PM

NotoriousPTG
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p.1 #22 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

I've been using the setup without incident. JRx has some misfires when triggered from px transmitter tho

Oct 08, 2009 at 02:58 PM

Tony Harrell
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p.1 #23 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Hi Jimmy,

I've been using the Jrx on location, powered by multiple Vagabonds since they were released. Like Notorious - I've had a few misfires... but the set-up can not be beat to adjust the lights once they're 8ft up in the air with a beauty dish, etc.

I also keep PWs plugged into each of the lights - just so I can use my hand held flash meter to check ratios. No problems.

Oct 08, 2009 at 03:27 PM

Paul Buff
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p.1 #24 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

kenyee wrote:
Paul Buff wrote:
Technically, the differential op amps that form the analog remote input latch up when the remote is connected via the telephone jack and the AC power drops below a critical voltage.
...
And, Oh, the you tube link comparison sort of implies that I am a slippery salesman that cheats people - that where the "evil" statement originates.

Thanks for the technical background on the issue. I appreciate it.
That makes sense...so the remote power control interface basically "crashes" (digital term, but that's effectively what the opamps are doing when they latch up...hadn't heard that term since my electronics class eons ago

Good observations. Technically, certain op amps and circuits object when input voltages exceed their power supply voltage. In this case, the power supply voltage dips under critical voltage from the Vagabond and the output from CSRs, RR1s, RC1s and RP controllers doesn't drop, so a latchup condition can result. This is something we didn't anticipate in 1986 when these circuits were designed before current limiting inverters existed.

As for hacks - while this is possible, these circuits, for the past eight years or so, utilize robotically assembled surface mount chips about the size of a flea. Field reworking of SMT circuits is extremely difficult for even very advanced technicians. From our perspective, yes, we could find solutions for this, but considering there are over a half million lights that have been in the field as long as 13 years, attempting to retrofit these lights would be an impossible task. It's tantamount to to trying to retrofit all pcs ever made because they don't have USB2. In that regard, how many 1986 (or 2005) vintage computers are capable of running 2009 software or hardware? This is not intended as a cop out. We are proud of the huge number of Buff lights in regular use today and which are fully capable of accepting all 2009 accessories, and capable of complete digital wireless remote control and operation with Vagabond and other inverters. The fact that RP was able to do what they have is testament. So the question arises: "Why didn't RP make power control of any light system other than Buff a feature?" Why doesn't XYZ flash have a Vagabond and digital remote for their classic products?"

As stated, this potential has existed since the introduction of Vagabond in 1998 and has not surfaced until this thread, either on forums or in our tech department. So Paul Buff isn't God!

Oct 08, 2009 at 05:35 PM

K_Strecker
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p.1 #25 · Radiopopper JrX and Vagabond II problems

Looks like the answer is clear

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-10043-10273

if it's fully compatible with all digital strobes, it should work in this situation . . . right?

A cool $2995 should solve all your problems.

Oct 08, 2009 at 06:01 PM


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