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Archive 2009 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?

  
 
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #1 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


mfurman wrote:
I must have missed something recently: help me please understand when Panasonic became a leading company in lens design. I am not sarcastic - I just would like to know. I might still readjust my plans.


Well, ironically, when Leica sent over personnel to Japan to work with Panasonic in producing some of the Leica branded lumix lenses made by Panasonic. I believe this occurred with the design of the Panasonic L1 over three years ago. Somewhere on the Panasonic site is an interview with the designer of this camera where he talks about the technology sharing between Leica and Panasonic.

You can read about that lens here:
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/dslr/l1/leica01.html




Sep 10, 2009 at 08:53 PM
Spyro P.
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p.3 #2 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


Tariq Gibran wrote:
The X1 is not quite as silent as the DP2. You can hear what the X1 sounds like over at Luminous Landscape.


I know, I saw the video and I f*n loved it, even though I'm a sucker for quiet cameras... "tick-tick-tick" like a mechanical watch

Damn I didnt realise the DP2 was selling for that price, I might just get one



Sep 10, 2009 at 08:57 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #3 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


Here is the article I was thinking about regarding the collaboration between Leica and Panasonic on the Lumix L1 Lens over three years ago:

http://www.lar.panasonic.com/lumix_Spanish/popup/behind_the_scenes_l1/vol4.html




Sep 10, 2009 at 09:02 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #4 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


Spyro P. wrote:
I know, I saw the video and I f*n loved it, even though I'm a sucker for quiet cameras... "tick-tick-tick" like a mechanical watch

Damn I didnt realise the DP2 was selling for that price, I might just get one


Yes, i really liked what I heard also.



Sep 10, 2009 at 09:04 PM
freaklikeme
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p.3 #5 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


I understand and share in the love for Leica glass, even if it is overpriced (sometimes making Canon and Nikon's prices seem restrained). I get the M9. Leica is very smart to keep the rangefinder alive. Few competitors would be willing to tread those waters, and it's still the perfect format for travel, hiking, and reportage with the body, charger, spare battery, and two to three lenses taking up roughly the same space as a 1D or D3, charger, and spare battery. And with such a wide variety of lenses still in production for the mount, if you have the means and don't need the different features of the DSLR, why not? I even get the S2, even if I'll never actually get an S2 (odds are very much against it). Why shouldn't Leica challenge the medium format makers, where astronomical pricing is the norm, with their fairly radical design?

I see the advantages of a APSC P&S with a fixed focal length lens. And I really like the looks of the camera body and funky pop-up flash. Even when I factor all of that in, I still can't help but look at the price tag and feel that Leica is very obviously trading on the brand name alone with this one.



Sep 10, 2009 at 09:42 PM
Arka
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p.3 #6 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


zoetmb wrote:
With that price and a fixed lens, I don't think I'm interested.

One of the reasons to buy a Leica (in my opinion) is the elegance and quality of the design and machining. When you look at a Leica MP, M7 or M8, it does kind of take your breath away, even aside from picture quality. The X1 doesn't do that for me, but perhaps it looks better in-person.


I guess I haven't been so impressed. I happen to own a rebadged Leica compact camera, but I haven't been able to wrap my head around the appeal of the RF. They're pretty heavy, blocky, and not all that fun to use.

If I want a walk-around camera, I think the GF1 looks a lot more interesting to me, even though it's a smaller sensor. With a 20mm 1.7 or with a 14-45 3.5-5.6 it's $900 U.S. With both lenses, it's about $1250. Seems like a much better deal and I would assume it's physically smaller. And that's at list price. Some time after release, it will probably go for less. But new Leicas are almost never discounted.

Agreed. I've been using an EP-1 with Olympus 4/3 zooms, and have been very pleased with the performance. The Oly 4/3 zooms add a lot to the price though.

If I were rich enough that spending money didn't matter, I might go for an M9 (or an M7). But since it matters a lot, I don't think they'll ever be a Leica in my hands.

That system would be heavier than a GF1 or EP-1. I guess the optical viewfinder would be nice, but I frankly have a hard time grasping the appeal... and goodness knows I have enough expensive habits to be susceptible to the Leica craze.

It will be interesting to see if/how Nikon/Canon react to both the GF1 and the X1.

I don't think they will. Maybe some APS-C fixed-lens cameras, but I kind of doubt it.

Arka C.



Sep 11, 2009 at 01:06 AM
snegron
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p.3 #7 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


mfurman wrote:
I must have missed something recently: help me please understand when Panasonic became a leading company in lens design. I am not sarcastic - I just would like to know. I might still readjust my plans.



My guess is when they created this one http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmclx3/ under the Leica name.
At least that is when the lens matched the sensor to produce a camera capable of taking outstanding images!

I own two other Lumix's (an FZ50 and a waterproof TS1), but their image quality pales in comparision to the LX3. While I also have a pair of D200's and old D1X's with a bunch of lenses, I now take my LX3 with me on most travel outings because of less weight, less bulk, and the outstanding images I get.

IMO, Lumix has carved its mark in the very competitive camera world. I hope it continues to produce gems like the LX3 and GF1. For all we know the Leica name on the lenses of these cameras were made in the same factory as the cameras the Lumix bodies.



Sep 12, 2009 at 08:00 AM
mawz
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p.3 #8 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Well, ironically, when Leica sent over personnel to Japan to work with Panasonic in producing some of the Leica branded lumix lenses made by Panasonic. I believe this occurred with the design of the Panasonic L1 over three years ago. Somewhere on the Panasonic site is an interview with the designer of this camera where he talks about the technology sharing between Leica and Panasonic.

You can read about that lens here:
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/dslr/l1/leica01.html



Actually years before that. Panasonic has been doing pro-level video for quite a while (20+ years) and their video lenses are excellent.

Note also Leica's reputation as a premium lens designer is not much older, it didn't really appear until the 70's. Remember Nikon made their name in the 50's by selling lenses that were better than the Leica's for less money. Leica was always known for good glass, but they were in the same category as Nikon, Canon or Pentax in the 50's and 60's, not in Zeiss's class.



Sep 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #9 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


mawz wrote:
Actually years before that. Panasonic has been doing pro-level video for quite a while (20+ years) and their video lenses are excellent.

Note also Leica's reputation as a premium lens designer is not much older, it didn't really appear until the 70's. Remember Nikon made their name in the 50's by selling lenses that were better than the Leica's for less money. Leica was always known for good glass, but they were in the same category as Nikon, Canon or Pentax in the 50's and 60's, not in Zeiss's class.


Yes, I agree with that but, of course, these video lenses did not need to have the resolving power that lenses designed for film and/or high MP still cameras require. Two different animals I think.



Sep 12, 2009 at 11:19 AM
ISO1600
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p.3 #10 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


I think the Canon S90 will be a much more capable camera.


Sep 12, 2009 at 04:31 PM
Uncle Mike
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p.3 #11 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


mfurman wrote:
Panasonic or Leica. Let me think


I'll go with the company which specializes in 21st century electronics. This is, after all, a DIGITAL camera we are talking about and not a 1950s film cameras.



Sep 12, 2009 at 04:59 PM
mfurman
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p.3 #12 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


Uncle Mike:
I'll go with the company which specializes in 21st century electronics.


And the one that makes cameras with LV, Movie Mode and a few more important goodies.



Sep 12, 2009 at 08:01 PM
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p.3 #13 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


hahahaaha


Sep 14, 2009 at 01:22 PM
pascal03
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p.3 #14 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


Had a brief thought when I saw it was an APS-C sensor. Then I saw the price and thought it was funny. If Leica actually plans to sell any of those, that price needs to be cut in half and then some.

And if the X1's sensor is as good as the D90 sensor, why bother getting the X1 when you can pick up a D90 and a 35mm f1.8 or a 20mm f3.5.

I doubt if anyone....other than those who feel the red dot gives them some special magical power.... is going to spend that much on the X1 when you can get a GF-1 with a superb 7-14mm, 20mm f1.7, and maybe even a 14-45mm for the same price or less.




Sep 14, 2009 at 05:34 PM
bluetsunami
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p.3 #15 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


You can also adapt better alt lenses for th GF-1 too. The choice is pretty clear.


Sep 14, 2009 at 06:57 PM
borderlight
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p.3 #16 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


I just opted out of the GF1 w/20, and 90 macro on Amazon pre-order. It's not that the GF1 won't be nice, it's just that it is destined to lose significant value in a short time. The Micro 4/3rd (MFT) format is still an experiment of sorts, especially in light of the fact that the Leica X1 can fit a much larger sensor in the same space. People who have purchased a $900 Leica DG Macro-Elmarit f2.8 made for the Panasonic GF1, more specifically a MFT camera, will have a hard time selling it if the 1.5x format becomes the accepted standard. A high quality, self-contained body/lens combo like the X1, although costly at first, seems to be a better deal now and down the road. Quality workmanship and materials make a difference.



Sep 18, 2009 at 10:41 PM
EB-1
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p.3 #17 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


Lack of a zoom kills it for me, though an APS-C sensor is nice for a change. Is there any chance of other models?

EBH



Sep 19, 2009 at 12:32 AM
mawz
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p.3 #18 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


Barry Pehlman wrote:
I just opted out of the GF1 w/20, and 90 macro on Amazon pre-order. It's not that the GF1 won't be nice, it's just that it is destined to lose significant value in a short time. The Micro 4/3rd (MFT) format is still an experiment of sorts, especially in light of the fact that the Leica X1 can fit a much larger sensor in the same space. People who have purchased a $900 Leica DG Macro-Elmarit f2.8 made for the Panasonic GF1, more specifically a MFT camera, will have a hard time selling it if the 1.5x format becomes
...Show more

Ironically, my experience is that 4/3rds lenses hold their value better than APS-C lenses despite the latter having become the accepted format for smaller-than-35mm DSLR's. With m43, as with 4/3rds, you're buying into a system and lens value tends to track inversely with how popular the system is due to supply & demand issues.

I'd expect the X1 to be a worse deal now and down the road compared to a GF1 with 20 and 45mm lenses. With the GF1 your next body will not require new glass, whereas the Leica will likely have a similar lifespan but you'll end up paying more than twice as much for the replacement.

Don't get me wrong, I think the X1 looks excellent, but at $2000 it's not a good value compared to the GF1 in a straight up comparison. The Leica wins primarily on size, as well as simplicity rather than value.



Sep 19, 2009 at 07:28 AM
mawz
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p.3 #19 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


pascal03 wrote:
Had a brief thought when I saw it was an APS-C sensor. Then I saw the price and thought it was funny. If Leica actually plans to sell any of those, that price needs to be cut in half and then some.

And if the X1's sensor is as good as the D90 sensor, why bother getting the X1 when you can pick up a D90 and a 35mm f1.8 or a 20mm f3.5.

I doubt if anyone....other than those who feel the red dot gives them some special magical power.... is going to spend that much on the X1 when
...Show more

Size. The X1 with the lens retracted is closer in size to a LX3 than a GF1, let alone the D90 (which is monstrous in comparison to either the X1 or GF1).

The Gf1's a better deal, but a more complex camera. If all I wanted was a small, pocketable camera with a 35mm equivalent lens the X1's the obvious choice. If I need more flexibility or capability I'd go for the GF1. If I needed more speed I'd pay the size tax and get the new Pentax K-X and a couple pancakes (which is only a bit larger than a G1)



Sep 19, 2009 at 07:30 AM
borderlight
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p.3 #20 · Anyone thinking about a Leica X1?


Mawz wrote:

Ironically, my experience is that 4/3rds lenses hold their value better than APS-C lenses despite the latter having become the accepted format for smaller-than-35mm DSLR's. With m43, as with 4/3rds, you're buying into a system and lens value tends to track inversely with how popular the system is due to supply & demand issues.

Well that's debatable, but they won't fit a micro 4/3rds (MFT) camera without an adapter thus increasing it's size. Conversely, mounting a MFT lens to a FT body, if even possible, will not cover the sensor without cut-off. From what I have read, the Olympus MFT body doesn't do well with Panasonic MFT lenses in the IQ department. You can adapt Nikon and other manual focus lenses to these modified P&S bodies, but for me it doesn't make sense putting a large lens on a camera the size of a EP1. At that point I would just get an SLR.... at least it has an optical viewfinder. Right now the only two players in the MFT game is Panasonic and Olympus. If the technology exists to put a 1/5x sensor in a camera the same size as an EP1 or GF1, why go smaller with a 2x sensor?

I'd expect the X1 to be a worse deal now and down the road compared to a GF1 with 20 and 45mm lenses. With the GF1 your next body will not require new glass, whereas the Leica will likely have a similar lifespan but you'll end up paying more than twice as much for the replacement.

Leica film cameras hold their value... that's a fact. The M8, a disaster IMO, was Leica's first attempt at putting digital in an M series. Besides the lousy color issues, I think it was dumb of them to put a 1.3x sensor in a true rangefinder camera. It was difficult enough when I owned a M6 to feel confident within those various RF lines. A 1.3x sensor just made it worse. Now it seems that those who want a true digital rangefinder will get it with the M9.... but I digress. Panasonic has no history of making still cameras even if the GF1 might end up being the best MFT camera on the market. Next year it will probably be the GF2, then GF3 for 2012. Knowing Leica, they don't fix what's not broken. I expect the X1 to end up being a cult camera like those tiny Rolleis were, the ones made in Germany, not Singapore.

As part of the X1's $2000 "deal", Adobe Lightroom ($300) is included. That's a nice feature and I guess it's better than waiting for and then paying for Photoshop CS5 to acknowledge the X1.

Don't get me wrong, I think the X1 looks excellent, but at $2000 it's not a good value compared to the GF1 in a straight up comparison. The Leica wins primarily on size, as well as simplicity rather than value.

Any tiny, metal camera made in Germany that shoots 3 frames per second, no shutter lag, 13 true MP, a 1.5x sensor, and also looks cool is worth consideration, especially compared to the only competition at this point - the Sigma DP series, cameras that seem to be an excercise in frustration en route to decent quality pictures at 4.5 MP per jpeg (14MP if you do Sigma's fuzzy math, but only in RAW).

For those who want a zoom, do some cropping with the 1.5x sensor. You should come out to a focal length in the 50s after factoring the 2x sensor. Need a faster lens than the G10 because it topped out at ISO 200, try the X1 at 800. Now you got a camera with a sensor ten times the G10 and a 1.4 lens, so to speak.

Still haven't decided on anything at this point. I am not thrilled about announcements for products three or more months down the road. We'll see.



Sep 19, 2009 at 09:36 AM
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