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Archive 2009 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Fred Tedsen
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p.146 #1 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

skibum5 wrote:
why should opening it (a TIFF produced by DPP) in LR2.6 make whatever DPP does (which does include some mazing) go away

I don't think that it necessarily should, but on the other hand why should what DPP does look so much more pronounced in Lightroom? The mazing in that image in DPP is really minimal compared with how it looks in Lightroom, and in 2.5 the TIFF looks exactly like the RAW. Why is that? I was beginning to think that part of the problem was related to how Lightroom displays the image. Now that doesn't seem to be the case. But, I'm still curious as to the display difference between DPP and Lightroom. There is no RAW processing happening to the TIFF, yet it looks very different. Just a point of curiousity. With Lightroom 2.6 here I'm going to try to forget that i ever heard of mazing.

Nov 19, 2009 at 02:36 PM

Fred Tedsen
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p.146 #2 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Stoffer wrote:
Phew, ACR 5.6 really makes the 7D much better in term of noise a low ISO. A quicky test seems to suggest that it rivals that of my beloved 5D which is all I could ever ask for. Clean blue sky even with ton of sharpening.

Hmm, that's not what I'm finding. I can see absolutely no difference in low ISO noise between 2.5 and 2.6. But then again I don't see any problem with low ISO noise.

Nov 19, 2009 at 02:46 PM

allebaug
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p.146 #3 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Zenon Char wrote:
So I have been going through the manual for C.Fn 4.1 to come up with a "back focus" set up that will work for me. The manual is poorly written regarding this IMO .

The shutter button can be switched to Metering Start. The AF-ON does not have a stand alone focus start so the choice here is Metering and AF Start.

For example I am in AI Servo. I am assuming based on what the manual says that when I press the AF-ON both Metering and AF start and then when I press the shutter button the metering is overwritten from the AF-ON function I pressed earlier. Am I on the right track?

Based on my same 7D setup for AI Servo, you are on the right track.

Nov 19, 2009 at 03:14 PM

Zenon Char
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p.146 #4 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

allebaug wrote:
Zenon Char wrote:
So I have been going through the manual for C.Fn 4.1 to come up with a "back focus" set up that will work for me. The manual is poorly written regarding this IMO .

The shutter button can be switched to Metering Start. The AF-ON does not have a stand alone focus start so the choice here is Metering and AF Start.

For example I am in AI Servo. I am assuming based on what the manual says that when I press the AF-ON both Metering and AF start and then when I press the shutter button the metering is overwritten from the AF-ON function I pressed earlier. Am I on the right track?

Based on my same 7D setup for AI Servo, you are on the right track.

Thanks

Hmmm. I know people say it is great but I'm still trying to wrap my head around where the advantage is. I shoot a lot in AI Servo with the shutter button set to AF and Metering Start and I do very well. The metering is continually adjusting during this set up. Just seems like there is more thing to think about.

You also stated your set up for AI Servo. So your One Shot functions normally? AF and metering start? This must that registering part I read about in the manual.

Nov 19, 2009 at 03:22 PM

skibum5
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p.146 #5 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

ciprian.trofin wrote:
skibum5 wrote:
ok, i looked over the DPR ISO100 sample RAW (their copy was NOT as good as Paul's and probably more similar to mine)
...

Some guy at DPR quoted your post. Well... quoted is an overstatement - he said "a copy over of part of a thread from a different forum". Lame...

yeah my alternate personality is pretty lame, gonna have to have a serious talking to him tonight

anyway, sorry for the confusion
different forum, different handle
on quite a few forums skibum followed by more different numbers than you can imagine has laready been taken by others so i gave up (i don't recall if that was the case in this situation or not but it has been in others)

Nov 19, 2009 at 06:12 PM

skibum5
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p.146 #6 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Fred Tedsen wrote:
skibum5 wrote:
why should opening it (a TIFF produced by DPP) in LR2.6 make whatever DPP does (which does include some mazing) go away

yeah i have no clue that seems very strange

maybe you have color profiling turned on in one program and not the other?

or did the wrong type of monitor profile? (one thing to watch out for is absolute vs. relative blackpoint monitor profiles both work fine with most programs but only one works properly with adobe lightroom/cs4 and it can really make shadow areas look much different, and it can also change deep contrast a bit, maybe that happened and accentuated the look of the mazing

just a totally wild guess. anyway it is an important thing to know, it drove me crazy for a while since i would do stuff or view stuff in cs4 only to find things shifting how they looked in other programs, and i am not just talking about subtle color shifts between color away and non-color aware programs and viewers, here the entire shadow detail region and lower tones would be pretty radically altered)

anyway yeah i think mazing is best forgotten about now it's gone with ACR and largerly gone with c1v5 (although i still dont like how that makes certain types of artifcats especially the lack of filtering the white and black dots but that is somewhat a different issue), it can still be there for DPP users who have copies with the balance farther out though.

Nov 19, 2009 at 06:18 PM

skibum5
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p.146 #7 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

anyway one last horrible post about mazing:

come comparisons between acr 5.5 and 5.6

acr 5.6 gets less moire (this MAY make it improve IQ for cameras other than 7D as well, haven't checked yet)

it might be a touch less microcontrasty at times than 5.5, but those are pretty rare times, so maybe they did have to do a little averaging away of the finest detail contrast here and there, however it doesn't appear to be something to worry about since it is almost always minor and while DPR didn't post their 50D RAW file to compare with and the way they set ACR doesn't dig into the finest details too well, it still seems, looking at their samples, pretty likely that the 7D even with whatever they had to do with 5.6 will still at the very least the 50D for detail in any case so whether acr 5.6 needs to average away a little at times doesn't appear likely to matter any in the end if it has more reach than any other camera on the market even as is and of course it has far less banding at high iso than a 50D and so on

with acr 5.6 i think that pretty much any 7D copy (even the more out of balance ones) will be able to give overall better results than any other aps-c on the market at any iso for any purpose; maybe i am overstating things in the other direction now, but probably not

personally i lthink ACR 5.6 output from the 7D is the best since even if you had a copy that had no mazing at all with DPP and C1 those two still leave those nasty speckles and a few other artifacts all over and ACR 5.6 does not (i'm not a c1 expert so maybe if you fiddle around enough you can eventually get them to go away without ruining detail but not so sure about that). DPP also has a lot more zipper artifacts (as it does wth any body nothing to do with the 7D just the way they programmed the demosaic algo) and is more prone to breaking moire up into weird patterns. Granted ACR makes its own sort of artifacts (with any camera), ijust don't midn them as much as the DPP ones myself.

anyway im happy since i dont really like using DPP very much regardless of how well or not it does and i think i like acr handling a little better than c1 too plus who wants to spend another ton of money on yet another program

Edited on Nov 19, 2009 at 07:27 PM · View previous versions

Nov 19, 2009 at 06:34 PM

skibum5
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p.146 #8 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

i accidentally originally saved as jpg instead of tiff and then reopened so it did slightly mute the differences but this still pretty much gives the picture, modest processing not pushing contrast or sharpening to any degree at all:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

actually this very first pair did have a bit stronger than normal sharpening applied

This image is copyrighted by the owner

with acr 5.6 7D prob has the best sensor out there (aps-c)

Edited on Nov 19, 2009 at 07:28 PM · View previous versions

Nov 19, 2009 at 06:51 PM

ejmartin
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p.146 #9 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

These are ACR 5.5 vs 5.6 with the 7D? The second of each pair clearly has much less artifacting, though there is some still left, which is intrinsic to ACR's demosaic method.

I'd be interested to see ACR 5.6 with the 7D vs the 50D.

Nov 19, 2009 at 07:05 PM

skibum5
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p.146 #10 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

and yes you can get into some extreme pixel peeping at times and yet still actually get out and shoot, sorry for the crazy length of this post, but maybe it will put to rest all the sniping that you can't get technical and pixel peep AND also get out and shoot since most people can do both:

EDIT: posted a few too many here and deleted them
but it was a ton of photos from all over the world of all sorts of different subjects

Edited on Nov 21, 2009 at 05:29 AM · View previous versions

Nov 19, 2009 at 07:22 PM

skibum5
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p.146 #11 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

ejmartin wrote:
These are ACR 5.5 vs 5.6 with the 7D? The second of each pair clearly has much less artifacting, though there is some still left, which is intrinsic to ACR's demosaic method.

I'd be interested to see ACR 5.6 with the 7D vs the 50D.

yeah 5.5 vs. 5.6 with the 7D using the DPR ISO100 test scene

yeah i would be interested in seeing the 50D DPR test RAW since the real question is whether it really does at least deliver 50D detail without artifacting i suspect it can but can't be sure

i didn't check for general noise, for all i know whatever they did still leaves extra noise, but at least it is of a nice form and its not THAT critical at low ISO if it is of a nicer looking form (although if it still was 2x as bad for some cameras that would be a bit weak of canon)

i sold my 50D so i can't make a test scene mysef

Edited on Nov 19, 2009 at 09:16 PM · View previous versions

Nov 19, 2009 at 07:25 PM

paulfeng
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p.146 #12 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

I should be receiving my third 7D body tomorrow, as the first and second both have non-IQ related issues. I'm not sure I will have time this weekend, but I may be able to set up a somewhat controlled test shot of 50D vs 7D1, 7D2, and 7D3. My plan is to tripod mount my 100-400 @ 100mm f/8 (we aren't really worried about diffraction, are we?), focus multiple times using live mode AF in live-view (& pick the best) and light the scene with bounced flash, manual power.

I probably won't put a lot of effort into the subject scene; I may put some wine bottles and skeins of yarn on the fireplace mantle. Any suggestions here (easy things I might have around the house)?

And - no promises, my family and work may actually demand some of my time, so my photography time might only be taking actual pictures of the kids running around with the new

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puppy!

skibum5 wrote:
ejmartin wrote:
These are ACR 5.5 vs 5.6 with the 7D? The second of each pair clearly has much less artifacting, though there is some still left, which is intrinsic to ACR's demosaic method.

I'd be interested to see ACR 5.6 with the 7D vs the 50D.

yeah 5.5 vs. 5.6 with the 7D using the DPR ISO100 test scene

yeah i would be interested in seeing the 50D DPR test RAW since the real question is whether it really does at least deliver 50D detail without artifacting i suspect it can but can't be sure

i didn't check for general noise, for all i know whatever they did still leaves extra noise, but at least it is of a nice form and its not THAT critical at low ISO if it is of a nicer looking form

i sold my 50D so i can't make a test scene mysef

Nov 19, 2009 at 07:55 PM

ejmartin
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p.146 #13 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

skibum5 wrote:
ejmartin wrote:
These are ACR 5.5 vs 5.6 with the 7D? The second of each pair clearly has much less artifacting, though there is some still left, which is intrinsic to ACR's demosaic method.

I'd be interested to see ACR 5.6 with the 7D vs the 50D.

yeah 5.5 vs. 5.6 with the 7D using the DPR ISO100 test scene

yeah i would be interested in seeing the 50D DPR test RAW since the real question is whether it really does at least deliver 50D detail without artifacting i suspect it can but can't be sure

i didn't check for general noise, for all i know whatever they did still leaves extra noise, but at least it is of a nice form and its not THAT critical at low ISO if it is of a nicer looking form

i sold my 50D so i can't make a test scene mysef

Why not use the Imaging-Resource test scene? That should be available for the 50D.

Nov 19, 2009 at 08:10 PM

paulfeng
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p.146 #14 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

ejmartin wrote:
Why not use the Imaging-Resource test scene? That should be available for the 50D.

I will be happy not to shoot a test scene. But I may anyway, to convince myself that the second body does not have magical IQ properties.

Nov 19, 2009 at 08:16 PM

allebaug
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p.146 #15 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Zenon Char wrote:

Thanks

Hmmm. I know people say it is great but I'm still trying to wrap my head around where the advantage is. I shoot a lot in AI Servo with the shutter button set to AF and Metering Start and I do very well. The metering is continually adjusting during this set up. Just seems like there is more thing to think about.

You also stated your set up for AI Servo. So your One Shot functions normally? AF and metering start? This must that registering part I read about in the manual.

I have AI Servo parameters set into one of the Custom Settings, including AV mode, orientation-specific AF points (expanded AF), and others suitable for tracking moving subjects. I have another Custom Setting configured for MLU, Manual exposure, expanded center AF point, and others, mainly for landscape and static work based on experience with previous EOS bodies, primarily the 5D.

My non-Custom Settings configuration is more ad-hoc to the situation and I find I'm mostly using One-Shot and AV or M mode. The My Menu page has also been a great addition for collecting camera operation options in one quick to access place, such as bracketing, flash control, format,...

I had the * button set for Focus and no AF on the Shutter button on the older EOS bodies before the AF-on button was added. I'm used to this way of using the EOS bodies and use it all of the time in addition to having it set within the CS modes.

Oops - didn't fully answer you... On the older bodies AF could be a little flaky! Once I had a good focus (usually the center point) especially with static subjects, and needed to recompose/shift the scene before making the image, I didn't want the camera to refocus elsewhere. Habits stick - good and bad ones.

Edited on Nov 19, 2009 at 08:47 PM · View previous versions

Nov 19, 2009 at 08:34 PM

nathanlake
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p.146 #16 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

LR support for the 7D is now available.

Nov 19, 2009 at 08:40 PM

ejmartin
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p.146 #17 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

paulfeng wrote:
ejmartin wrote:
Why not use the Imaging-Resource test scene? That should be available for the 50D.

I will be happy not to shoot a test scene. But I may anyway, to convince myself that the second body does not have magical IQ properties.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting I'm about to analyze any more RAW files; I'm more or less done with that. I was simply curious how the ACR 5.6rc renders one of these standard test scenes relative to the 50D. Can't do it myself since I am still using CS3.

Nov 19, 2009 at 08:59 PM

BennyR
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p.146 #18 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

nathanlake wrote:
LR support for the 7D is now available.

Where are you guys getting it? I only see 2.5 on the Adobe site. When checking for updates in LR 2.5 it doesn't give me any either.

Nov 19, 2009 at 09:05 PM

thedigitalbean
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p.146 #19 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

BennyR wrote:
nathanlake wrote:
LR support for the 7D is now available.

Where are you guys getting it? I only see 2.5 on the Adobe site. When checking for updates in LR 2.5 it doesn't give me any either.

http://labs.adobe.com/

Its a release candidate, not the final 2.6/5.6 release.

Nov 19, 2009 at 09:12 PM

skibum5
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p.146 #20 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

ejmartin wrote:
skibum5 wrote:
ejmartin wrote:
These are ACR 5.5 vs 5.6 with the 7D? The second of each pair clearly has much less artifacting, though there is some still left, which is intrinsic to ACR's demosaic method.

I'd be interested to see ACR 5.6 with the 7D vs the 50D.

yeah 5.5 vs. 5.6 with the 7D using the DPR ISO100 test scene

yeah i would be interested in seeing the 50D DPR test RAW since the real question is whether it really does at least deliver 50D detail without artifacting i suspect it can but can't be sure

i didn't check for general noise, for all i know whatever they did still leaves extra noise, but at least it is of a nice form and its not THAT critical at low ISO if it is of a nicer looking form

i sold my 50D so i can't make a test scene mysef

Why not use the Imaging-Resource test scene? That should be available for the 50D.

yeah i guess i could do that

i know they kept changing the scene (and lighting) and focal point slightly all the time so i'm not sure it will work for this but i can see, maybe the 50D file will have the same setup and identical focus

Edited on Nov 24, 2009 at 07:33 PM · View previous versions

Nov 19, 2009 at 09:13 PM

BennyR
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p.146 #21 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

thedigitalbean wrote:
BennyR wrote:
nathanlake wrote:
LR support for the 7D is now available.

Where are you guys getting it? I only see 2.5 on the Adobe site. When checking for updates in LR 2.5 it doesn't give me any either.

http://labs.adobe.com/

Its a release candidate, not the final 2.6/5.6 release.

Thanks Aravind. I did the ACR 5.6 yesterday. Nice site too!

Nov 19, 2009 at 09:18 PM

paulfeng
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p.146 #22 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

ejmartin wrote:
Can't do it myself since I am still using CS3.

As am I, so w/out upgrading to CS4 (I am loathe to spring for CS4 so soon before CS5 debuts (rumored to be next spring)).

Does anyone know if the Lightroom 3 beta has or will soon have the latest ACR functionality (am I correct in "understanding" that LR does not take the ACR plugin, but has the raw support built in)?

Is anyone using ACR in Photoshop Elements, which would be another lower cost option that could tide me over until CS5?

Nov 19, 2009 at 09:21 PM

skibum5
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p.146 #23 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

paulfeng wrote:
ejmartin wrote:
Can't do it myself since I am still using CS3.

As am I, so w/out upgrading to CS4 (I am loathe to spring for CS4 so soon before CS5 debuts (rumored to be next spring)).

Does anyone know if the Lightroom 3 beta has or will soon have the latest ACR functionality (am I correct in "understanding" that LR does not take the ACR plugin, but has the raw support built in)?

Is anyone using ACR in Photoshop Elements, which would be another lower cost option that could tide me over until CS5?

i thought LR 2.6 was just released and includes the efffective ACR 2.6RC in it

i don't use LR (at least not yet, full pricing on CS5 may change my mind though) so i don't know but i thought i saw mention of that

Nov 19, 2009 at 09:27 PM

paulfeng
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p.146 #24 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

skibum5 wrote:
i thought LR 2.6 was just released and includes the efffective ACR 2.6RC in it

I don't own any version of LR, but LR3beta is free, so I thought it might be a good temporary fix for my lack of post-CS3 ACR access.

Nov 19, 2009 at 09:36 PM

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p.146 #25 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

ejmartin wrote:
skibum5 wrote:
ejmartin wrote:
These are ACR 5.5 vs 5.6 with the 7D? The second of each pair clearly has much less artifacting, though there is some still left, which is intrinsic to ACR's demosaic method.

I'd be interested to see ACR 5.6 with the 7D vs the 50D.

yeah 5.5 vs. 5.6 with the 7D using the DPR ISO100 test scene

yeah i would be interested in seeing the 50D DPR test RAW since the real question is whether it really does at least deliver 50D detail without artifacting i suspect it can but can't be sure

i didn't check for general noise, for all i know whatever they did still leaves extra noise, but at least it is of a nice form and its not THAT critical at low ISO if it is of a nicer looking form

i sold my 50D so i can't make a test scene mysef

Why not use the Imaging-Resource test scene? That should be available for the 50D.

as i feared they didn't even shoot the 50D and 7D the same distance away from the setup, it's not wildly far off but when trying to see if 18MP matches 15MP you need it to be pretty darn close to be fair

anyway, as is with the 7D closer and getting and unfair advantage it does pull in more reach than 50D FWIW

i can post the pics later

this was acr 5.6 for each

will also do acr 5.5

Nov 19, 2009 at 10:27 PM


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