Canon EOS 7D Master thread

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Canon EOS 7D Master thread

UCSB
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p.137 #1 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Fred Tedsen wrote:
UCSB wrote:
One thing you should realize is that coming from the 20D to the 7D you are really magnifying the contents of the file ... including the noise when viewing at 100%. Just adjust your processing to the new camera.

On the long shot you are using ARC or LR, just stop ... and wait for official 7D support.

You're quite right about that. I still see more image level noise in some of my 7D photos, however. I can't use DPP!

Actually, until I picked up this 7D I really never used DPP much. I sat down the other day and read the manual and I am glad I did. It has some nice features that can come in handy (distortion correction by lens, vignetting correction by lens, etc.) in some conditions. There is much more to the product than meets the eye. I'm not giving up on C1 and ARC, but for some issues in some images it seems nice.

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:03 AM

angel_d_saint
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p.137 #2 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Re darwinwiggett review, it is stated that he did the tests in Live View mode. I wonder what firmware version he was using at that time, because ver. 1.0.9 supposedly corrected for the 'soft focusing' during Live View, right?

Nov 12, 2009 at 03:44 AM

angel_d_saint
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p.137 #3 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

angel_d_saint wrote:
Re darwinwiggett review, it is stated that he did the tests in Live View mode. I wonder what firmware version he was using at that time, because ver. 1.0.9 supposedly corrected for the 'soft focusing' during Live View, right?

Blog entry was 11 November, so I assume that he's had the latest firmware update.

Nov 12, 2009 at 04:25 AM

UCSB
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p.137 #4 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

7D SHARPNESS

I looked at the review, also. It seemed like his big issue was IQ, sharpness specifically. So being stuck here with the flu, I decide to take a quick look at sharpness myself. I don't know what his problem was ... if I had to guess, he didn't AF micro adjust his lens or possibly the explanations I give at the end of this post ... whatever, he got pretty bad results.

Top image in each set is 7D, bottom image is 5DII. Both shot with 135L (f/5.6 on 7D, f/8 on 5DII). Direct flash, high speed sync. HANDHELD. Framed in a similar manner, but not perfect (7D seems to have gotten the short end of the deal). EXIF in full images. Top image set is the full frame, bottom set are 100% crops.

Here is how the images were processed. Processed in C1 PRO v5, standard setting for NR (and virtually everything else). Sharpening standard setting is .8, 180. I used .8, 230 on both images. Not a big deal (scale is 0 to 1000). Full frame images were downsized in Photoshop, same sharpening applied to both ... something like smartsharpen 50 (very mild).

I am not trying to do a review here ... just a reasonable, quick quality check. One thing that was going through my mind was the 135L is a very high quality lens (good for this kind of test), maybe I should also shoot a comparison with a lesser lens.

Frame as shot, 7D top, 5DII bottom.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

100% crops, 7D top, 5DII bottom.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Of course if you were processing these images, you would apply output sharpening in Photoshop. Here is a smartsharpen of 100 on the 7D file. Nothing special about the value of 100 just wanted to illustrate how the file might take a little sharpening in Photoshop.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Using curves to add a very small amount of contrast to the image (plus prior sharpening).

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Here is the full image frame with the contrast added to the 50 smartsharpen above.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

For those wondering what you would get if you followed the Darwin Wiggett (author of 7D review) approach to preparing your files. Here it is DPP processed no NR, no sharpening, everything else standard. 7D top, 5DII bottom.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

What does it mean? There has been a trend with camera manufacturers where they have begin to rely on the extensive processing power of today's computers to really complete the processing of their images. I first saw this when there was a huge delay in ARC/LR support for my Panasonic LX3. The delay was caused because Adobe had to implement optics corrections, CA corrections and who know what on the RAW file in the converter. Very nice results on LX3. Adobe has added a whole technical capability for processing RAW files and making adjustments. The 7D may be very dependent on the performance of the converter ... where people have optimized settings to pull the images together. Defeat all of those judgments and you may end up with junk. For myself, I would be careful defeating the initial settings in C1 when I start processing an image (when a RAW converter costs $400, you hope you are getting some expertise in processing the images optimally).

One other possible explanation for Darwin's problems is that possibly DPP was not entirely ready when the 7D was released. There may be hope for DPP tuning and ACR/LR will probably be very good when we see it.

Here is what C1 produces with NO NR and NO sharpening (or anything else ... like a little contrast ... the output could be improved from here even with NO NR and sharpening). Obviously took a different approach than DPP.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Finally, at least with my 135L I think this is awesome sharpness in my initial set of images above!

Edited on Nov 12, 2009 at 04:25 PM · View previous versions

Nov 12, 2009 at 06:32 AM

slin100
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p.137 #5 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

paulfeng wrote:
Ok, anyone care to compare the 7D shutter/mirror sound to a 10D? Preferably done by someone actually having both cameras... I remember the 10D has a nice, soft shutter sound, but if it's hard to describe a shutter sound in words, I think that remembering such a sound is even harder.

I just picked up a 7D. I also have a 10D and a 40D. The 10D is still the king of softness. It's almost as quiet as releasing the shutter with the mirror locked up.

The 7D is in between the 10D and 40D. It sounds like a muffled 40D. Perhaps the extra bulk and weather sealing help dampen the noise.

The other thing I've noticed is that the 7D shutter button is mushier than the 40D. The 40D has a distinct detent, which is not there on the 7D.

Nov 12, 2009 at 06:51 AM

paulfeng
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p.137 #6 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Here's a raw file of a color checker from me (if this ain't your bag, baby, just ignore it... sorry, I've been watching Austin Powers):
https://www.yousendit.com/download/TzY0T2pDd0kzeUozZUE9PQ

For anyone interested, have at it and tell us what you find. FWIW, this is an OOF image of a color checker that I displayed on my monitor. 1/10s exposure (to eliminate monitor flicker issues) at ISO 100.

I had committed to making this available from my 7D before I had looked for any mazing, G1-G2 issues, etc., so for anyone gathering statistics (ha-ha), this represents an unbiased sample (as long as you believe that I would have followed through w/out question once I committed, without regard to any other factors).

Actually, later this week I will post another, as I am getting a replacement for this body. I just got this one two days ago and discovered that there is a spot of something on the sensor that won't move under serious rocket-blowing; it ain't just dust. Other than that, though, the sensor appears to be pretty spotless from Canon.

IQ questions aside, this camera is fabulous.

Oh, w/regard to the shutter release mentioned by the previous post-er: I agree with the description, and add the note that to my subjective impression, it takes a fair bit of force to get the shutter to release, more than I would prefer. The BG-E7 grip has much more of a hair trigger. I wish I could average the two. I don't know how this compares to 1-series bodies.

Nov 12, 2009 at 08:15 AM

Yakim Peled
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p.137 #7 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Fred Tedsen wrote:
When I got my 7D one of the things I noticed was that skies looked a bit noisy at ISO 200. When I compared it to my 20D, I discovered that it is indeed noisier all the way to ISO 800.

That's a bit of a worry AFAIAC. Did you do a controlled test i.e. all other parameters were kept constant?

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Nov 12, 2009 at 09:30 AM

alundeb
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p.137 #8 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

UCSB,
Thanks a lot for the comparison!
You have shed some good light on how the files from the 7D and 5DII compare, and how different processing affects the end result.

Nov 12, 2009 at 09:50 AM

ejmartin
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p.137 #9 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

One concern I would have for the 7D conversions is whether the inherent softness coming out of the converter with all the NR/sharpening turned off is a choice, or the symptom of the compromises the converter has been forced to make to deal with the pattern noise and greens imbalance that has been observed in most of the cameras tested. NR robs resolution, and sharpening increases acutance, not resolution, and brings back up the noise. If the greens were balanced and the line noise absent, could the results be a lot better with no NR/sharpening?

Nov 12, 2009 at 01:09 PM

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p.137 #10 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

This is what I get at 200% in DPP. It's excellent IMO:

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Nov 12, 2009 at 01:40 PM

paulfeng
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p.137 #11 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

brainiac wrote:
This is what I get at 200% in DPP. It's excellent IMO:

Which file is that from?

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:23 PM

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p.137 #12 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

ejmartin wrote:
One concern I would have for the 7D conversions is whether the inherent softness coming out of the converter with all the NR/sharpening turned off is a choice, or the symptom of the compromises the converter has been forced to make to deal with the pattern noise and greens imbalance that has been observed in most of the cameras tested. NR robs resolution, and sharpening increases acutance, not resolution, and brings back up the noise. If the greens were balanced and the line noise absent, could the results be a lot better with no NR/sharpening?

I guess the softness with NR/sharpening off is a compromise the converter does to deal with the greens imbalance. If it is just 1. generation algorithms, or a necessity remains to be seen.

Also, it seems that the resolution is less hurt than the actuance. Also DPreview mentions it, that while the absolute resolution is only 2500 lp/ph (out of ACR), the extinct resolution is at 3800 lp/ph, and this allows for very fine details. (if I remember the numbers correctly)

Whether the results would be better with identical greens is not easy to tell. The benefits from diluted and different greens could be lower photon shot noise and better color accuracy. How big is the gain, and how much is lost again with the sharpening?

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:34 PM

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p.137 #13 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

brainiac wrote:
This is what I get at 200% in DPP. It's excellent IMO:

Looks like it's all converter dependent. Open the same file in LR3b, at 200% and sharpness up you will see the same artifact as I had shown a few posts above.

Keep my finger crossed that LR will be updated soon

2008 © gfiksel

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:45 PM

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p.137 #14 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Paul Feng's 7D seems to have a bit more vertical gain fluctuation than UCSB's. The pattern of green channel imbalance is much the same:

http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/posts/dpr/paulfengCC.png

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:50 PM

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p.137 #15 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

gfiksel wrote:
brainiac wrote:
This is what I get at 200% in DPP. It's excellent IMO:

Looks like it's all converter dependent. Open the same file in LR3b, at 200% and sharpness up you will see the same artifact as I had shown a few posts above.

Keep my finger crossed that LR will be updated soon

I think this is all down to the green channel imbalance, and compensating for it in the demosaic process. It's pretty clear that the current ACR demosaic algorithm isn't doing anything about it, while DPP, C1 and the ACR 5.6ß that DPR used are doing something to compensate.

Nov 12, 2009 at 02:57 PM

gfiksel
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p.137 #16 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

ejmartin wrote:
gfiksel wrote:
brainiac wrote:
This is what I get at 200% in DPP. It's excellent IMO:

Looks like it's all converter dependent. Open the same file in LR3b, at 200% and sharpness up you will see the same artifact as I had shown a few posts above.

Keep my finger crossed that LR will be updated soon

I think this is all down to the green channel imbalance, and compensating for it in the demosaic process. It's pretty clear that the current ACR demosaic algorithm isn't doing anything about it, while DPP, C1 and the ACR 5.6ß that DPR used are doing something to compensate.

Yep, I think you're right

Nov 12, 2009 at 03:01 PM

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p.137 #17 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

jorkata wrote:
alundeb wrote:
Another flawed review.

The 50D and now the 7D must be the two cameras with most flawed reviews ... ever

.

With the 50D and 500D reviews using aperture f/8, the effect of diffraction started becoming visible. If the reviewers don't recognize that in resolution tests, they will become increasingly irrelevant for high pixel density cameras.

The case with the greens imbalance and it's implications could somewhat be forgiven, because nobody saw this coming.

Now when the knowledge is being developed, it appears that comparing the output with no sharpening can not be considered a fair comparison if the 7D really is a 4 color camera, because detail is preserved and actuance is regained with sharpening much more than for 3-color cameras.

Nov 12, 2009 at 03:04 PM

Fred Tedsen
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p.137 #18 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

brainiac wrote:
This is what I get at 200% in DPP. It's excellent IMO:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Nov 12, 2009 at 03:05 PM

theSuede
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p.137 #19 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

LR can be made to compensate for the channel imbalance, if you know how to do it. Unfortunately this has to be made on DNG files (I'm still not sentient enough within the LR program structure to be able to patch LR directly), so you get an extra step in the processing.
It actually has provision for BOTH an up-to eight column black-point calibration and up-to eight column amplification response calibration. And it also has provision for a way of telling the de-mosaic engine that the greens MAY have some colour response imbalance.

Now if Adobe could just apply those settings correctly, a lot of the problems would disappear. This does not take the heat off Canon, though, this IS a Canon hardware problem, not a converter problem. Software can be made to compensate for the built-in Canon hardware errors, errors that honestly just SHOULD NOT BE THERE! Unfortunately something really weird seems to be done with the topmost blacked out strip in the 7D, so the area that is usually used for calibrating blacklevels for each column is compromised by Canon. Also a hardware problem, made by Canon - not the converters.

Some 30 pages back or so I showed the difference between a "correctly applied & compensated" LR conversion and the beta conversion.

Nov 12, 2009 at 04:16 PM

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p.137 #20 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

theSuede wrote:
LR can be made to compensate for the channel imbalance, if you know how to do it. Unfortunately this has to be made on DNG files (I'm still not sentient enough within the LR program structure to be able to patch LR directly), so you get an extra step in the processing.
It actually has provision for BOTH an up-to eight column black-point calibration and up-to eight column amplification response calibration. And it also has provision for a way of telling the de-mosaic engine that the greens MAY have some colour response imbalance.

Now if Adobe could just apply those settings correctly, a lot of the problems would disappear. This does not take the heat off Canon, though, this IS a Canon hardware problem, not a converter problem. Software can be made to compensate for the built-in Canon hardware errors, errors that honestly just SHOULD NOT BE THERE! Unfortunately something really weird seems to be done with the topmost blacked out strip in the 7D, so the area that is usually used for calibrating blacklevels for each column is compromised by Canon. Also a hardware problem, made by Canon - not the converters.

Some 30 pages back or so I showed the difference between a "correctly applied & compensated" LR conversion and the beta conversion.

You've partially answered a long-running question that I've had, which was "can this problem be fixed via a firmware update, or is it a hardware QC issue which requires swapping my 7D for a good copy."

The next question is whether it's a hardware QC issue, or a fundamental hardware design issue? There is a big difference between the two.

Many of us don't want a camera "marketed" at 18mp (which isn't truly 18mp visually, but still requires 18mp of storage space), we don't want extra workflow, and we don't want noisier LOW ISO images than what we're used to (re: 20D)

I understand that updated converters might be able to "mask" the underlying issue (at the cost of resolution), but that's not why we're paying Canon for this body.

As one reviewer aptly put it, "this is a body that we'd like to love." Sigh.

Nov 12, 2009 at 04:28 PM

rego
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p.137 #21 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Hi,
I have it since 2 weeks this Eos 7D and I can easily say it is HORRIBLE!! after thousands of picture.
if you concern about image quality awfullt bad .no matter raw or jpeg format.jpeg picture is of course softer than raw which is usual but raw picture is also as bad as jpegs!!.
Please don't tell about high iso or etc.if you can't make sharp and clear picture at iso 100,so where you will use iso thousands?
I can tell about my lens,Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L USM ,Canon EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM ,Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM ....so which one is bad ones? if you use it at eos7D body all of them is giving very soft picturesYou have to edit them hours and hours photoshop or etc...I have also 5D MK2 and Eos 10D... do you know two of them much better than eos 7D picture. at least sharper.of course 5Dmk 2 sharper.But what about 10D?,This is a maybe 6 years old Dslr

it is like a joke..
But if your piority is how handsome the camera, of course 7D will easily take a lead.feeling it at your hand you will feel more powerfull

like a brick .All the button at the place where it has to be.Easy to use.Just connect with your full hd lcd tv via mini hdmi jack and look your soft!! picture at your sharp HD television screen

this is what I am doing now.
I have to tell you this is my second copy of eos 7d,with latest firmware.Also you have to read some major camera review site.They cannot say very soft images but they were always telling about beta production model is problem maybe,but I didn't have beta production or early adopt one.
Before purchase please try it or rent it or borrow from friends 7D and put your best of the best L glass on it ,use tripod with the shutter release and mirror lock .Try to make sharpest picture with that brick!and don't be sorry about soft result ;this is not your fault it is because 7D!!
Ps.Forget about Af Micro adjustment .Because it is not at all for general settings for specific lens.you have to make all focal length!!! if you make at 70mm adjust ment,it will not working at 24 or 50mm.Trust me I tried hours and hours.

Nov 12, 2009 at 05:27 PM

UCSB
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p.137 #22 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Fred Tedsen wrote:
brainiac wrote:
This is what I get at 200% in DPP. It's excellent IMO:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

For this image DPP is perfect. The same patches in Lightroom 2.5 and 3 beta fall apart with mazing at even modest amounts of sharpening (3 beta worse than 2.5). Artifacts show up in Capture One, but only with extreme sharpening.

I repeated this with my camera, but not so out of focus. The results were similar, with DPP completely free of problems, followed by C1, LR 2.5 and LR 3b. C1 still didn't show mazing but had a lot more artifacts.

Fred ... all LR/ARC support is currently defective (they are not production, fully supported 7D releases). Every single time we have looked at the issue it is the same ... heavy artifacting. On the Adobe forum, Adobe has hinted that they plan on releasing new software with 7D support in December. So in another three to six weeks we should have an Adobe update. The current problems are not a bad reflection on the camera/Canon or Adobe ... just a reality of Adobe's engineering software release approach.

Nov 12, 2009 at 05:35 PM

UCSB
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p.137 #23 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

rego wrote:
Hi,
I have it since 2 weeks this Eos 7D and I can easily say it is HORRIBLE!! after thousands of picture.
if you concern about image quality awfullt bad .no matter raw or jpeg format.jpeg picture is of course softer than raw which is usual but raw picture is also as bad as jpegs!!.
Please don't tell about high iso or etc.if you can't make sharp and clear picture at iso 100,so where you will use iso thousands?
I can tell about my lens,Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L USM ,Canon EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM ,Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS USM ....so which one is bad ones? if you use it at eos7D body all of them is giving very soft picturesYou have to edit them hours and hours photoshop or etc...I have also 5D MK2 and Eos 10D... do you know two of them much better than eos 7D picture. at least sharper.of course 5Dmk 2 sharper.But what about 10D?,This is a maybe 6 years old Dslr

it is like a joke..
But if your piority is how handsome the camera, of course 7D will easily take a lead.feeling it at your hand you will feel more powerfull

like a brick .All the button at the place where it has to be.Easy to use.Just connect with your full hd lcd tv via mini hdmi jack and look your soft!! picture at your sharp HD television screen

Nov 12, 2009 at 05:40 PM

thedigitalbean
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p.137 #24 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Resolving power is not a problem I have with this camera. Here's an image taken with the 100-400 @ 180mm, wide open at f/5 in very bright unflattering light. Default Lightroom sharpening:

Center crop:

Top crop:

Nov 12, 2009 at 05:53 PM

thedigitalbean
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p.137 #25 · Canon EOS 7D Master thread

Here's another, also with 100-400 @ 400mm, ISO 800.

and here's the crop:

Nov 12, 2009 at 05:56 PM


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