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Archive 2009 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS

  
 
c.d.embrey
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p.19 #1 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Deezie wrote:
My experience with the PLM was similar to RG's review. While I don't do group shots, the product in use is very capable and easy to set up.


Plus one! I've had the same experience. I have all three, but mainly use the large one. BTW the large PLM is very easy for this old man (65 plus) to set-up by myself.

Planning to get the {b]New Improved PLMs when they are available!



Dec 18, 2009 at 03:19 PM
Deezie
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p.19 #2 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Planning to get the {b]New Improved PLMs when they are available!

What improvements are they making?



Dec 18, 2009 at 06:59 PM
jrsforums
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p.19 #3 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Deezie wrote:
What improvements are they making?


Read the RG review.

John



Dec 18, 2009 at 07:23 PM
Paul Buff
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p.19 #4 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


kenyee wrote:
Only nit on the Galbraith review was that he's not using the softbox at softbox distances (max of 2x diagonal)...at 25' away, it'll behave mostly like a slightly softer point light source Seems like a review of "how it looks if I used it to light up large sports teams".
Good review overall as long as you kept that in mind while reading it...

This is a silly arbitrary rule created by some "expert". So you are saying using a 3' x 4' softbox at any distance greater than 7 feet violates some rule and you might as well use a 7" reflector? Or using an 86" PLM beyond 12' is somehow useless because it breaks some law?

Fact is the degree of shadow softening and specular behavior is a variable function of source size VS distance. There are no absolutes in photography, and when a would be pro shooter starts looking up lighting in his rule book he is headed for mediocrity.

Certainly shadow wrap around effect diminishes with distance and with source size, but there is no yes/no point. I can clearly see the difference in shadow structure (softening) in my tests at 100' between an 86" PLM, or anything else this size, and a 11" or 16" reflector.



Dec 19, 2009 at 12:07 AM
Paul Buff
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p.19 #5 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Deezie wrote:
What improvements are they making?


I'm not taking about improvements being made until they go into production. I would like to, because I like to share what I'm doing, but anytime I do that here I get jumped on. I had nothing to do with Rob's report - even discouraged him from going beyond what is presently available (though back ordered). He called me and was enthused with his findings - end of story. If one knows anything about Rob, one knows he is extremely thorough about what he publishes, and is the preeminent expert on high quality sports shooting.



Dec 19, 2009 at 12:17 AM
c.d.embrey
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p.19 #6 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Paul Buff wrote:
This is a silly arbitrary rule created by some "expert" ... useless because it breaks some law?

Fact is the degree of shadow softening and specular behavior is a variable function of source size VS distance. There are no absolutes in photography, and when a would be pro shooter starts looking up lighting in his rule book he is headed for mediocrity.

Certainly shadow wrap around effect diminishes with distance and with source size, but there is no yes/no point ...


Plus one to Paul Buff. There is an old adage in the Motion Picture Biz: You have to be smarter than your equipment

I've used the 86" PLM at about 18' and it still had good wrap. Was able to shoot at f/16 at that distance using a Profoto AcuteB 600R.

BTW If they made an 8 foot PCB PLM I'd pay in the $150/200.00 for it. Anyone else feel the same way??



Dec 19, 2009 at 02:53 AM
c.d.embrey
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p.19 #7 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Sorry about the double post!


Dec 19, 2009 at 02:53 AM
kenyee
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p.19 #8 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Paul Buff wrote:
This is a silly arbitrary rule created by some "expert". So you are saying using a 3' x 4' softbox at any distance greater than 7 feet violates some rule and you might as well use a 7" reflector? Or using an 86" PLM beyond 12' is somehow useless because it breaks some law?
Fact is the degree of shadow softening and specular behavior is a variable function of source size VS distance.


Rule is probably too harsh...guideline?
AFAIK, the guideline is due to size vs. distance and also how the modifier works. E.g., beauty dishes have the recognizable nice contrasty/soft BD effect only up to a max of 2x diameter...beyond that, they light sort of looks like an umbrella's. I'd assume a parabolic umbrella has similar guidelines because I've seen some folks mention they use it up to a certain distance (though that may also be because of the size :-)

p.s., I do appreciate heads up on what's going on in your pipeline and FWIW, I don't think people jump on you for this.
It seems to be mostly the time estimates that the griping is over. And don't think it's only you...look up Radiopopper in the flickr strobist forum and you'll see what I mean (their JrX was a year late...their RPCube is already several weeks late and people including me have hacked up their own...their european version of the JrX is a year late, etc.).



Dec 19, 2009 at 10:16 PM
Paul Buff
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p.19 #9 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


A white BD with the usual blocker is basically a non-focused round light source that that projects a wide, even beam essentially identical to what a round white bounce umbrella would project. Nothing contrasty about it.

What is perceived as contrast is the fact that when it, or any similar size modifier . . . . umbrella, softbox etc. is placed close to the subject, inverse square law causes the parts of the subject closest to the subject to be brighter than the more distant parts. Thus the subject has gradients of brightness across it . . . a light side with gradients to a dark side. This is not a shadow - it's a light gradient. The further the light is from the subject, the less the inverse square law falloff but the more defined the shadow because the wrap around effect is diminished. The same effect occurs with a softbox or umbrella except the catchlights are not round.

Also, there is the subject of face-evenness of the light source. Irregularities across the face effect specularity - the brightness of reflective portions of the subject (shiny parts) VS non reflective portions. This also causes variations in the shadow structure and of light gradients when used close to the subject.

Still further, there is how the rays of light emanate from the source. Almost all white light sources produce non-coherent light rays that scatter in every direction from each point on of the radiating surface. But metalized modifiers produce rays that coherently radiate in a different direction from each point of the surface. Depending on the modifier design, the rays may cross . . . in front of the subject, at the subject or behind the subject, or a combination. This adds a further element to the specularity, apparent contras, gradients and shadow structure.

A beauty dish without a blocker, or a conventional metal reflector produces a whole new effect . . . a bright, point source in the center and a ring of large-source "soft" light around the perimeter. Thus it is two sources in one and combines the soft look of a large source with the extreme specularity of the bright point source. Where and this is useful or detrimental depends on subject and the lighting goals.

Finally, there are silver umbrellas. The light that actually strikes the subject is a series of eight spokes of relatively specular light (high spot intensity) that graduate into a field of much lower spot intensity, together with lots of cross angles of emission. This yields the shadow wrapping effect of a large source with a fairly strong accentuation of of shiny portions of the subject (specularity), and yields up to a snappier looking shot than an all-white, even spot- intensity source such as a softbox of white umbrella or white beauty dish.

Finally, the PLM produces 16 spokes of lower spot intensity light than the standard eight spokes. This produces a more controlled, yet still very present, specularity, high shadow wrapping and, in most cases, catchlights that appear round rather than octagonal catch lights.

Diffusing the output of a silver BD or umbrella effectively removes most of the characteristics discussed above and yields a look very similar to a white umbrella or a softbox . . . relatively even spot-intensity and non-coherent, wide angle soft illumination. The over use of large, strongly diffused light sources often leads to mushy, boring results in the view of many pros.

So it is very difficult to make generalizations about the behavior of a particular light modifier. Embry is pretty much on target, but I would add you also have to understand the myriad characteristic differences in modifier types and use them to your advantage. But another method, successfully used by many artists, is "screw the rules and just experiment."

Broken rules often produce the most unique and interesting results. Nine poor shots and one sensational one beats ten mediocre shots in my book. Live light to the fullest



Dec 20, 2009 at 12:46 AM
c.d.embrey
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p.19 #10 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Paul Buff said:
A beauty dish without a blocker, or a conventional metal reflector produces a whole new effect . . . a bright, point source in the center and a ring of large-source "soft" light around the perimeter. Thus it is two sources in one and combines the soft look of a large source with the extreme specularity of the bright point source.


For those of you who have never used a hard open face source, (i.e an Alien Bees new 8.5-Inch High Output Reflector 45°, Dynalite RR-50 10” 50° Parabolic Reflector, Elinchrom Maxi Lite Reflector 43° (40cm =15.7 inches), Profoto Magnum 50° (34.5 cm =13.58 in) or Speedotron 20 inch 50° Grid Reflector) these light modifiers all make a double shadow, a soft one from the reflector and a hard one from the point source of the flash tube. The double shadow is a soft broad shadow with a skinny hard black shadow in the middle. I saw a fashion ad (maybe Interview Magazine) with the model sitting at 90° to the camera several feet from the wall, her legs cast this double shadow. The photographer was thinking outside-the-box to get this interesting effect (no PhotoShop needed ). I have a 20" 50° Speedotron (that has a Profoto mount) that I sometime use with an Elinchrom Beauty Dish Deflector (14cm = 5.5") to kill the double shadow (this plugs into the umbrella socket).

Paul Buff said :
The over use of large, strongly diffused light sources often leads to mushy, boring results in the view of many pros.
and also:
Broken rules often produce the most unique and interesting results.


Got that right!! Start living outside-the-box -- we don't need no stinking boxes!!

c.d.embrey sez: There is a difference between lighting and illumination!!



Dec 20, 2009 at 02:49 AM
f1.2
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p.19 #11 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


c.d.embrey wrote:
BTW If they made an 8 foot PCB PLM I'd pay in the $150/200.00 for it. Anyone else feel the same way??


Make it 10 feet please...



Dec 20, 2009 at 04:14 AM
kenyee
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p.19 #12 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Thanks Paul and embrey. Those were two most illuminating posts I've seen in a while


Dec 20, 2009 at 11:14 AM
c.d.embrey
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p.19 #13 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


kenyee wrote:
Thanks Paul and embrey. Those were two most illuminating posts I've seen in a while


You are very welcome.



Dec 20, 2009 at 01:12 PM
Mark Booth
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p.19 #14 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Paul, I need a 40' PLM and a 25' light stand to go with it, please!

Mark



Dec 20, 2009 at 03:08 PM
Paul Buff
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p.19 #15 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Thanks all. If anyone wants more of this sort of analysis of the behavior of light, I wrote a little booklet when I first stared in the biz in 1981. It's completely non promotional and doesn't even mention my products. A bit dated but very understandable. It's free. If anyone wants one just contact our customer service and ask for the booklet Lighting For Still Photography. If a day goes by and I haven't learned something new about this that means I slept all day


Dec 20, 2009 at 04:07 PM
Brooke Clyde
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p.19 #16 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Paul Buff wrote:
I'm not taking about improvements being made until they go into production.


That post was 12/18. They're not in production yet? Please tell me you meant "until they are shipping" ...



Dec 22, 2009 at 03:14 PM
Paul Buff
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p.19 #17 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


That was four days ago! We will provide details when we have the final product ready to go into production. What goes on behind the scenes in the umbrella industry will make a strong man cry.


Dec 22, 2009 at 03:19 PM
Brooke Clyde
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p.19 #18 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Paul Buff wrote:
That was four days ago! We will provide details when we have the final product ready to go into production. What goes on behind the scenes in the umbrella industry will make a strong man cry.


Sorry. Not complaining, or even asking for specs, etc. It's just that I ordered the "new" model in November and was just told today it would be shipping at the end of the year.

Something not in production yet is probably not shipping in two weeks, thus I'm wondering ...



Dec 22, 2009 at 04:12 PM
Paul Buff
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p.19 #19 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


A little inside information: Most umbrellas you can buy at B&H come from one of three light manufacturers in China. They often outsource them to local sewing shops. The communication is terrible and they often can't even read CAD drawings. You can ask them what one and two is and they'll tell "The weather is nice here today" After you ask the about ten times, they'll tell you "I don't understand one and two, can you explain".

We have a few hundred PLMs coming in in about 10 days - we ordered 2000 and they were supposed to be done by now. They are fundamentally the same as what we have shipped except the shafts are shorter and the front diffuser is quite improved . . . if we get them. We were promised an new frame version with 7mm shaft 2 months ago, I got tired of waiting and trying to communicate and said forget it - gimme' 2000 like the present ones.

Instead, I designed a completely different frame system and spent about $20,000 tooling it. Molds are being made now and first samples are due in 25 days. This is being done by a very trusted mold supplier we have used for all our injection molded and extruded or fabricated metal parts. We communicate very well and their work is near impeccable. This is the real Version Two that neither I nor Rob Galbraith will discuss until I see it happen.

My vendor jumped at the chance to work directly with the local sewing shops (he's in the middle of them) and to oversee production of finished products so we don't have to deal with the "photo umbrella cartel". (The other vendors I mentioned are typically based in wealthy Hong Kong and sub the slave work out to mainland China - 800 miles away).

Version Two will not look like any umbrella frame you have seen and will have a whole bunch of serious improvements and innovations. I will be filing patents. It won't come at any significant cost increase. All of China goes on National Vacation for about ten days around Feb 14. I'm trying desperately to get Version Two into limited production before that date - but this is a very tight schedule.

I, like all of you, am a walking breathing human being. I f you could walk a day in my shoes you would say "Oh, my God, now I see why Paul sometimes makes predictions that don't materialize as presented." Globalization has eliminated our ability to make stuff like this in the USA . the peeps in North Carolina don't like making $.50 and hour and my customers don't want to pay $400 for a PLM. Fortunately, we can and do still make electronics in the USA competitively.

Merry Christmas to all of you.



Dec 22, 2009 at 10:33 PM
Deezie
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p.19 #20 · PCB PLM system REVIEWS


Is the new umbrella frame simply for more stability or does it have something to do with shaping the light? Or both?


Dec 22, 2009 at 11:36 PM
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