Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

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Archive 2009 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

smcphotos
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p.1 #1 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

I'm considering purchasing this rangefinder camera for shooting some landscapes. I like the large negative size and small weight of overall packaging.

Does anyone have experience or samples shooting landscapes with this camera setup? I'm considering it as a light-weight alternative to 4x5.

Aug 16, 2009 at 07:27 PM

stompyq
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p.1 #2 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

I've never tried a mamiya 7 but had a breif fling with a pentax 645 before moving up to a 4x5 feild kit. Personally i wouldn't use any rangefinder for strictly landscape use. Too much issues with parrelex and framing. You might be better served with going with a non rangefinder. I think it's a killier camera if your a jack of all trades king of photographer. Your gear seems top notch, why not go with a light weight 4x5 feild outfit to compliment them? I actually find the weight less than my 645 pentax kit (although it takes up more room)

Aug 16, 2009 at 09:25 PM

Vertigo2020
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p.1 #3 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

Just sold my 7II outfit to a Canadian photographer who uses exclusively for that purpose.

Aug 16, 2009 at 09:54 PM

smcphotos
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p.1 #4 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

Thanks for your reply. I'm still open to a 4x5, but don't have much experience with one. I'm really lured by the beauty and depth achievable with such a camera, and LOVE Velvia. Scans from this are still far better than any digital setup. I've been looking at Toyo, as they have student discounts.

Any recommendations for a starter setup? I don't want to settle, and would love great optics too....I'm just still researching.

Aug 16, 2009 at 10:17 PM

stompyq
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p.1 #5 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

Whats your buget for a 4x5 feild setup? I went from a wista feild to a chamonix 4x5. If i were you i would skip everything else and just get the chamonix. It's so freakishly light, has all the movements and is rock solid (in a different league to the wista). I would then buy a used 90mm f/8 lens (any of the big 4) and a 210mm lens. Add a few holders (i recommend a older grafamatic back), a black t-shirt and your all set.

And do your self a favour. If you like velvia you'll LOVE 4x5 velvia. No comparision. Yhe bigger neg is better. I'd estimate all this to be under $1500. Well under a used mamiya 7II system.. And the beauty is that if you want you can always shoot MF with a MF back (even 6x17/6x12 panoramic)

Aug 16, 2009 at 10:33 PM

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p.1 #6 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

Compared with MF rangefinder work, 4x5 is pretty limiting, long setups and tear downs, bulky equipment, fragile parts, need for strong tripod, need external metering, very few shots per day/session, very limited film emulsion choices, poor film flatness, difficult and slow film handling, upside down ground glass viewing/framing, costly processing, even more costly scanning for top results, setup prone to wind disturbance - ever noticed how every shot from LF is on a still windless day that looks like it was frozen in time?

You basically have to 'see' the composition you want before you mount the right lens - no VF. I thought you were a current LF guy when I was about to offer another view to that of the rangefinder naysayer above, but I see you have some way to go yet before deciding. For info on LF, try the large format photography forum run by QT Luong, or google Kerry Thalmann, an engineer with a great deal of information and expertise on how to make LF work well in the field.

For rangefinders and landscapes visit the rangefinder forum. I have used quite a number of MF rangefinders over 12 years for mostly wilderness landscape work (where LF simply would not work), including currently the M7ii, so I guess I must be a jack, rather than a master of trades ;-)...If you need more information on that option for landscape work send me a PM, I'll be glad to help. best regards, philip

Aug 16, 2009 at 10:55 PM

Vertigo2020
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p.1 #7 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

If you're looking at 4x5 as an alternative, I recommend a close look at the Shen-Hao PTB. It's very light weight and well made. Combined with a Nikon SW 90 f/8 and 150 f5.6 gives you a nice field use landscape outfit. The Velvia comes in Quickloads saving the weight of standards film holders. Add a decent carbon tripod and you're in business. I have this combo and it fits nicely in a cheapo backpack and its lighter than my D700 w/24-70. The only caveat is you can figure about $7 every time you pull the trigger.

Aug 16, 2009 at 11:39 PM

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p.1 #8 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

This camera is wicked as far as sharpness and resolution goes. Ive used virtually all there is to use and the M7 holds up against the best. The only reason I have bought and sold 2 of these systems is I struggled with the colour rendition and contrast.

The colour and contrast I found was on the harsh side. I wasnt a fan of its rendition at all. The sharpness was incredible though and was the reason it dragged me back to give it another go.

Aug 17, 2009 at 12:10 AM

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p.1 #9 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

If you really like and appreciate fine film work and enjoy solitary shooting then you might like 4x5. You cannot enjoy shooting 4x5 outdoors when walking/hiking with a significant other and family though. They will go crazy waiting while you endlessly fiddle around with the camera. You will also feel rushed and never produce work that you know you are capable of. You have to work solo.

There are endless choices when it comes to big film camera and lenses. If you like alt lenses on modern 35mm digital then you might enjoy the wonderful world of LF glass. Modern lenses are well suited to landscape work but there are all kinds of strange lenses that yield varied "looks" when doing portraits.

There are all kinds of camera systems from press cameras, field cameras to technical studio cameras. Of course a studio camera will work fine outdoors and a press camera is capable of performing table top work, but generally its best to go with what interests you.

I say if you want to go with big film then really go with big film. Besides 4x5 is cheap these days...

Aug 17, 2009 at 12:32 AM

philip_pj
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p.1 #10 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

Colour, you have a decent level of control over in post-processing, contrast is material-dependent to a large degree. I have taken to using Astia 100F for transparencies and you will never be overwhelmed with contrast using say, the new Ektar or the 100 speed portrait films or Reala 120, all very scanner friendly.

There are plenty of lightweight 4x5 devices, most of them are pretty flimsy, sadly - Linhofs, not...the Toho is a decent monorail weighing in around 3 pounds (or 1350 grams). Funny thread re the 'Shen Hao' PTB here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=41154
And you forgot to tell us about: the need for lens shading, composition issues with slow lenses, dark cloths, the bulk and weight of sheets, even Readyloads/Quickloads, accurate detent setting, bellows sag, etc. Just for comparison, the Mamiya 7II, 65mm f4 and Gitzo 1127, Markins head etc. is rock steady and weighs in at 3kgs, all up.

Could never warm to those 24-70 'pro' (pro wrestler maybe?) zooms (1kg), and the D700 is no lightweight either. You could look into Fuji's offerings for high IQ, high coverage slow lenses, or Rodenstock's magic 135/150 Sironars.

Aug 17, 2009 at 12:58 AM

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p.1 #11 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

SMC, do you intend to scan these on a flatbed of your own, or send out, or do you have access to a drum scanner?

Reason I say so, the difference in color and tone, might be moot if you're just throwing any and all transparencies, irrespective of size, onto an Epson V700 (for example)

Medium format, there are somewhat pricey but effective film scanning solutions for the desktop user.

If you're shooting 4x5, then it's either drum scan or flatbedding it!

EDIT: I should mention that use a collapsing-mount New Mamiya 6 rangefinder, and though 6x6 is a bit static for most landscapes in my opinion, the thing is wickedly "pocketable" and weighs little for what it is. Attach the 50mm lens, put in a 220 roll and you're off and running.

EDIT: I am adding one more edit just to trifle with the "view previous versions" thingy.

Edited on Aug 17, 2009 at 02:36 AM · View previous versions

Aug 17, 2009 at 01:29 AM

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p.1 #12 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

stompyq wrote:
I've never tried a mamiya 7 but had a breif fling with a pentax 645 before moving up to a 4x5 feild kit. Personally i wouldn't use any rangefinder for strictly landscape use. Too much issues with parrelex and framing.

Interesting. Landscape is exactly the use many Mamiya 7 owners use the camera for. Parallax really isn't much on a issue for the Mamiya & as the viewfinder automatically adjusts for parallax. I've never had an issue with parallax using the Mamiya 7. Most won't. You can very effectively shoot landscape with the Mamiya 7 and never worry about parallax error.

While it clearly can't provide the IQ of a 4x5, it is the next best thing, and you can work ALOT faster and ALOT more conveniently with the Mamiya and capture images that would be impossible with the 4x5.

Aug 17, 2009 at 01:57 AM

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p.1 #13 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

This really is one of those personal choices.

The Mamiya is a more convenient package. Its smaller and more direct to shoot with. You don't have to carry as nearly as much stuff: no loupe, dark cloth, film holders, etc, etc. You are far more limited with the number of lens options though. Odds are with more serious landscape work you will be using a solid tripod no matter which system is used.

If this will be tripod territory then the 4x5 option is still valid. There are tons more lenses to experiment with. This format is much more of a "journey" in the quest for artistic expression. All the variables add a certain something. I know some large format shooters who regard the modern DSLR as nothing more than just the new "polaroid proof" aid in their work. Its not for everyone though. The debate between 4x5 and MF is an old one. There are some amazing 4x5 shooters still out there. I would check out http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php and see it you like the concept. Shooting 4x5, or larger does offer interesting images, potentially wonderful IQ, all kinds of cropping options and a range of artistic expression that is unmatched in my opinion. You cannot do all the LF tilts, shifts, and swings with the Mamiya. But again, LF is not for everyone. It can be an absolute joy or nightmare. It depends on the person. It also takes more time, study and practice, which is not for everyone...

Aug 17, 2009 at 03:19 AM

smcphotos
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p.1 #14 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

Thanks for all the comments, everyone. I think it will ultimately boil down to a personal decision. I read a good review by Michael Reichman on Luminous Landscape about his use of the M7II for landscape work. I would love to jump into the 4x5 world, and realize it's a completely different animal from digital, but that's kind of the point for me. My ultimate goal is to print really big (I'm thinking up to 70"x70") for my masters exhibit.

I don't have my own scanner, and would send off slides to get scanned and printed. I realize this is expensive. I'm considering West Coast Imaging, as I can still get a 10% student discount. Does anyone have any suggestions or leanings in regards to my final goal (large prints/best quality without breaking the bank)?

Aug 17, 2009 at 03:40 AM

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p.1 #15 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

Getting good lab work and scanning is becoming a harder find. This fact will be the same with medium format and LF though. With good drum scans you pay by the megabyte. A lot of folks will do quick flatbed scans for smaller prints and web posting. I have an older Epson 4870 which does scan 4x5 film quite well. But a well executed piece of film properly drum scanned is a serious contender, especially if you want to print big. Then there are those who still love black & white who continue to labor in the darkroom.

If you go with 4x5 then doing black & white by hand is a great teaching tool while keeping costs down.

One thing I would consider if you are a serious student near a major city: see if you can get the opportunity to join a LF shooter for a day and see what's involved. Ask around and do some searching on the web. Real LF shooters love the idea of keeping this facet of serious photography alive. Getting serious about photography does include getting to know folks who are good at the trade. If you can do as much reading as you can beforehand I would also consider renting an LF system for a weekend. This way you try some cool gear and see if its a "good fit". Of course its impossible to know if this is your calling with just one quick rental but you will get some indication one way or another.

Aug 17, 2009 at 04:00 AM

smcphotos
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p.1 #16 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

I just found this link on ebay, does anyone think this is a good deal?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Toyo-45AII-4x5-Field-Camera_W0QQitemZ260462124117QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item3ca4c09c55&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_645wt_1167

Aug 17, 2009 at 04:06 AM

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p.1 #17 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

It looks nice. I have not used that model before.

But honestly I would spend some time reading first. Check the LF forum link I added above. I would spend about ten hours hunting around there while making bookmarks. The more time you spend the more you will learn. There are thousands of great posts there. LF photography is one of the oldest forms of photography. The basic principles have not changed that much. Read. Read. Read. Read. Read. And read some more...

If you are a nice trust worthy fellow I can send you a nice Busch Pressman D camera with a Fujinon 135/5.6 lens and some holders to play with...

Aug 17, 2009 at 04:17 AM

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p.1 #18 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

I have a Mamiya 7 and the 43mm lens I use for landscape photography. I still have to process most of what I've shot this summer but here's what I think after short time with it.

The good:
The camera is very portable. The size is similar to my Canon 1DsII but not as bulky. There's of course no mirror slap witch makes the camera almost silent and handholdable. For me 1/30 is safe with this lens handhold. The 43mm lens is very sharp within all the frame through all apertures. Vignetting is not noticeable even at f/4.5. I feel that people are not too scared of the camera making witch is great for portrait/street (and familiy snapshots).

The bad:
Framing may become a guesswork when subject is close to the lens. The external viewfinder for the 43mm lens does it best to correct parallel errors but not 100%. I'm used anyway to guesswork framing with my DSLR since I would need to crawl in mud or swim to look through the viewfinder in my 1DsII when I place it low. The metering might not work 100% since the metering is not done through the lens, especially with wide-angle lenses. You will also have to focus on the camera viewfinder and frame on the external one when using the 43mm lens. Another problem I've run into is not really related to the camera it self but a user error. You will have to remember to compensate exposure if you have a filter attached since the metering is not through the lens. Velvia is great but the contrasty nature may make the shadows a deep black abyss if you make a mistake metering.

Here's a shot that suffered from a mistake of forgetting to compensate a polarizer with Velvia 50. After hard work trying to push the shadows the image could be forced to work, but not exactly like I had planned. (note that the scan was made with a $50 scanner and might be easier to work with if scanned decently)

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Buttom line is that I love the Mamiya 7 and use it as much as the 1DsII at the moment.

Best, Hrannar

Aug 17, 2009 at 04:07 PM

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p.1 #19 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

What about the big Fuji rangefinders?

Aug 18, 2009 at 01:14 AM

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p.1 #20 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

anthonygh wrote:
What about the big Fuji rangefinders?

They're good machines, but most are fixed lens cameras so you're lacking in the wides that are so often a necessity for landscape. If you primarily shoot with a normal or wide normal they can be an excellent choice.

Aug 18, 2009 at 01:59 AM

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p.1 #21 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

smcphotos wrote:
I just found this link on ebay, does anyone think this is a good deal?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Toyo-45AII-4x5-Field-Camera_W0QQitemZ260462124117QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item3ca4c09c55&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_645wt_1167

Its decent. Just remember you need at least 4 or 5 film holders, a lens, a mechanical cable release, a lens, a darkcloth, a lightmeter (unless you just use your SLR as one), and a tripod and head capable of supporting it. I'll also second the suggestion of reading through the LF forum, and picking up a book on LF. It will help you figure out what would suit you best.

Aug 18, 2009 at 02:21 AM

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p.1 #22 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

hauxon wrote:

Here's a shot that suffered from a mistake of forgetting to compensate a polarizer with Velvia 50. After hard work trying to push the shadows the image could be forced to work, but not exactly like I had planned. (note that the scan was made with a $50 scanner and might be easier to work with if scanned decently)

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Buttom line is that I love the Mamiya 7 and use it as much as the 1DsII at the moment.

Best, Hrannar

Sometimes underexposing Velvia makes some very interesting results. I love the way this photo looks.

If processing film didn't suck in my area, I would have been very tempted to get on of those Mamiyas.

Aug 18, 2009 at 04:32 AM

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p.1 #23 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

It's interesting you say that, Edward; I feel the same about it, nice 3D and brooding sky full of atmosphere. Velvia has amazing dense blacks...and, here in Australia at least, fashion conscious 'fine art' guys are very keen on the artistic vignetting look!

Hrannah, if you are Photoshop user, you might try using Blending Modes for tonal balancing; Screen is the one you want to use for shadow recovery in scans...much less artifacting in shadows than other standard methods I have tried. Bruce Fraser used only this BM editing technique for a year. You can either use this technique locally, brushing in your desired level, or use luminosity masking.

After a hiking trip I must admit I always want to get the processed M7II trannies on the light box before I check out the D200 DSLR images too..hope to fix that bad habit with a Sony A900 soon.

Aug 18, 2009 at 05:22 AM

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p.1 #24 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

Well Philip this image is screened from four different scans in effort to minimize noise. The lower part was almost black in the slide. It's scanned with a cheap Canon flatbed. I however have an eye on a used Flextight Imacon Presicion II scanner and will try scanning again to see if I can squeeze more out of it. :-)

Best, Hrannar

Aug 18, 2009 at 08:11 AM

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p.1 #25 · Landscapes With Mamiya 7II

smcphotos wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions or leanings in regards to my final goal (large prints/best quality without breaking the bank)?

I shot a Mamiya 7II for a few years as my main film camera, up to going digital around 2002.

Personally, I would choose my Canon 5DII or 1DsII over the Mamiya.

I do still shoot 4x5, that is the only film that I still use. So that should tell you about which I would choose for larger prints.

I have 2 Epson 7600's and a 9600. I proof at 24x30, I don't even bother with smaller images.

I have 5 4x5's. For a relatively fast and simple field 4x5, I would suggest a Cambo Wide. The older, non-DS versions run about $1,500 or less with a lens. You have some shift, no tilt, which may be a limitation. But in my mind the simplicity and ease of use more than makes up for the lack of tilt.

I also have 2 Fotoman 4x5 PS cameras. I use the Cambo with lenses from 47mmm to 90mm, and the Fotoman from 90mm to 150mm.

The Fotoman are nice, simple, solid, well made "point and shoot" 4x5's. Body with lens cone was $800 new. No longer made, but you should be able to find them around. Nice viewfinders, I use a laser distance measuring device for closer in ($100 Fat Max.) Longer of course just use hyperfocal.

For film use Astia slide or Kodak Portra 160NC negative. Low contrast, low saturation. You can **always** pump up both in Photoshop. If you try to reduce either you get combing - can't add back lost data.

Have fun!

Michael

Aug 20, 2009 at 08:09 AM


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