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Archive 2009 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

telyt
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p.3 #1 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I just don't see how a financially strained company such a Leica could develop and successfully introduce an entirely new R10 system/lenses, a FF M9 and the S2.

The R10 has been cancelled.

Jul 31, 2009 at 02:44 AM

phuang3
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p.3 #2 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

I won't count on S2, but a FF M9 might save the Leica.

Jul 31, 2009 at 02:51 AM

Spyro P.
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p.3 #3 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I just don't see how a financially strained company such a Leica ...

Nah they're ok, I had a quick squeeze at the annual financial report they have on their website, it looks healthy enough, they're not going under anytime soon. It looked much worse a couple of years back but the M8 & the DLux seem to have pulled them out of the lurch. Tiny shop though, $218million of sales, compared to Canon's $45billion! Then again, Canon is a company that predominantly makes and sells photocopiers, Leica AG is camera gear through and through. Leica has an impressive $18m invested in R&D throught the year, which is like 4 times their annual profit, and they also have a $58k pa average employee remuneration, and that includes blue collar workers. It looks like a well-managed tidy little shop that is designed for R&D, and they have some wiggle room on their balance sheet if they want to start a new production line. Thats how they manage to churn out new stuff...

Jul 31, 2009 at 04:48 AM

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p.3 #4 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

telyt wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I just don't see how a financially strained company such a Leica could develop and successfully introduce an entirely new R10 system/lenses, a FF M9 and the S2.

The R10 has been cancelled.

There you go! When the R was discontinued and Leica claimed that an R10 was in the works, I had serious doubts. Leica loyalist were like "but, but the R10", blah blah blah. Thanks for the confirmation. I think that is a wise decision on Leica's part myself. It is unfortunate though that Leica chose to dangle the R10 over the heads of R users as an excuse for the discontinuation of the R system. I think they have demonstrated that you can't believe what they say.

I do think the S2 is one beautiful camera and predict the image quality it produces will be jaw dropping. Too bad I will never be able to afford one.

Jul 31, 2009 at 02:00 PM

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p.3 #5 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

Spyro P. wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I just don't see how a financially strained company such a Leica ...

Nah they're ok, I had a quick squeeze at the annual financial report they have on their website, it looks healthy enough, they're not going under anytime soon. It looked much worse a couple of years back but the M8 & the DLux seem to have pulled them out of the lurch. Tiny shop though, $218million of sales, compared to Canon's $45billion! Then again, Canon is a company that predominantly makes and sells photocopiers, Leica AG is camera gear through and through. Leica has an impressive $18m invested in R&D throught the year, which is like 4 times their annual profit, and they also have a $58k pa average employee remuneration, and that includes blue collar workers. It looks like a well-managed tidy little shop that is designed for R&D, and they have some wiggle room on their balance sheet if they want to start a new production line. Thats how they manage to churn out new stuff...

That's encouraging to hear. Leica was not always this small which is why if you go to Leica.com, you will see three independent companies.

Jul 31, 2009 at 02:04 PM

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p.3 #6 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I... ...predict the image quality it produces will be jaw dropping.

I predict the sensor will be slightly obsolete and that therefore it won't stand head and shoulders above the latest and greatest full frame offerings from SoNiKanon, at least by the time you can actually get hold of an S2. It will be another case of too little, too late, for too much.

Jul 31, 2009 at 02:25 PM

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p.3 #7 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

mawz wrote:
The S2 is LESS flexible than a 645AFDIII or H3D, not more. It's a very restricted system and almost certainly won't have better high ISO performance than the latest MFDB's (which are getting much better). It's only real redeeming qualities are a small body size, limited sealing and the availability of leaf and focal plane shutters in one system (something which has been announced for the Mamiya system as well, PhaseOne has announced it will be introducing 3 leaf-shutter lenses (Although those seem to have been delayed), T/S lenses are available in 645AF mount, and the 645AFD's can use several other system's lenses via adapters.

Don't get me wrong, I think that a system like the S2 or Nikon's rumoured MX system is a fairly good idea. I just also think that Leica is in the process of shooting themselves in the foot with how they're handling the launch and pricing.

We both have the same information on IQ between the S2 and MFDB's, so at this point it's all conjecture; there is no proof of either yet. However, going by what I have read thus far in bits and pieces here and there, one of the targets of the S2 is to produce better high ISO; and given the history of MFDBs thus far, this is not where they excel.

In terms of flexibility, many high end pro's are fairly specialized in their shooting, be it architecture, fashion, landscape etc. etc. I don't see a great need for a fashion photog to have access to TS lenses, or a location landscaper leaf shutters for full-range flash sync. Plus, these are lenses the S2 system can introduce anyway, should the market be there.
Regardless, my metion of flexibility is being able to use the same system both in studio and on location, which right now presents a big compromise with MFDB;s, even the DSLR-like H3D.

+1 though on LEICA shooting themselves in the foot; but it seems that their pricing is a product of their very high R&D costs, given the small size of the company.

Jul 31, 2009 at 03:23 PM

dasrocket
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p.3 #8 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

brainiac wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I... ...predict the image quality it produces will be jaw dropping.

I predict the sensor will be slightly obsolete and that therefore it won't stand head and shoulders above the latest and greatest full frame offerings from SoNiKanon, at least by the time you can actually get hold of an S2. It will be another case of too little, too late, for too much.

+1. I feel the M9 will also be in the same boat given the rapid development of the m43 system, even with the 2X crop.

Jul 31, 2009 at 03:28 PM

Joseph Marney
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p.3 #9 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

dasrocket wrote:
brainiac wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I... ...predict the image quality it produces will be jaw dropping.

I predict the sensor will be slightly obsolete and that therefore it won't stand head and shoulders above the latest and greatest full frame offerings from SoNiKanon, at least by the time you can actually get hold of an S2. It will be another case of too little, too late, for too much.

+1. I feel the M9 will also be in the same boat given the rapid development of the m43 system, even with the 2X crop.

I had read that Leica said they will not do m4/3, which, if true, is really too bad. They could release a $2000 camera and $1000 lenses and they would sell like hotcakes, especially if they incorporate Panasonic's EVF and AF.

Jul 31, 2009 at 03:43 PM

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p.3 #10 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

jcmarney wrote:
dasrocket wrote:
brainiac wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I... ...predict the image quality it produces will be jaw dropping.

I predict the sensor will be slightly obsolete and that therefore it won't stand head and shoulders above the latest and greatest full frame offerings from SoNiKanon, at least by the time you can actually get hold of an S2. It will be another case of too little, too late, for too much.

+1. I feel the M9 will also be in the same boat given the rapid development of the m43 system, even with the 2X crop.

I had read that Leica said they will not do m4/3, which, if true, is really too bad. They could release a $2000 camera and $1000 lenses and they would sell like hotcakes, especially if they incorporate Panasonic's EVF and AF.

I don't think Leica is capable of producing lenses at $1000 that are profitable to them given how they make lenses. To do so, they would have to farm them out similar to what Zeiss does with Cosina.

Jul 31, 2009 at 04:14 PM

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p.3 #11 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

Tariq Gibran wrote:
jcmarney wrote:

I had read that Leica said they will not do m4/3, which, if true, is really too bad. They could release a $2000 camera and $1000 lenses and they would sell like hotcakes, especially if they incorporate Panasonic's EVF and AF.

I don't think Leica is capable of producing lenses at $1000 that are profitable to them given how they make lenses. To do so, they would have to farm them out similar to what Zeiss does with Cosina.

Or what Leica already does for the D series lenses? They're made by Panasonic and sold under the Leica name (As Zeiss does with Sony for the ZA's).

Frankly I think Leica will be forced to go m43 as much of the market for M's heads that way.

Jul 31, 2009 at 06:09 PM

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p.3 #12 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

EOS20 wrote:
And for A extra $5000 US$ you get a sapphire glass monitor screen and 'Platinum Service' support package! Sounds Like a bargain to me!

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0907/09073001leicassystemprice.asp

So if you don't pay extra, I guess you just get treated like sh*t.

This just seem like an expensive camera that is neither here nor there. Leica might have a tough time proving value over what you can get from Hasselblad and Phase One for less -- or on the other hand, what you get from a a900, 1DsMkIII, or D3x.for much, much less.

Jul 31, 2009 at 06:37 PM

Joseph Marney
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p.3 #13 · What? No comments on the Leica S2 Pricing?

mawz wrote:
Tariq Gibran wrote:
jcmarney wrote:

I had read that Leica said they will not do m4/3, which, if true, is really too bad. They could release a $2000 camera and $1000 lenses and they would sell like hotcakes, especially if they incorporate Panasonic's EVF and AF.

I don't think Leica is capable of producing lenses at $1000 that are profitable to them given how they make lenses. To do so, they would have to farm them out similar to what Zeiss does with Cosina.

Or what Leica already does for the D series lenses? They're made by Panasonic and sold under the Leica name (As Zeiss does with Sony for the ZA's).

Frankly I think Leica will be forced to go m43 as much of the market for M's heads that way.

This is what I was thinking, yes. From what I understand, the design of the lens is done by Zeiss, and Sony manufactures. Same with the Panasonic/Leica glass. Glass like the 25 f1.4. The can make/sell stuff like that at $1000/$1500 and still make some profit.

Jul 31, 2009 at 07:34 PM

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