Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

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Archive 2009 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

adamdewilde
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p.1 #1 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Alright, so recently I started working on a movie set. I'm doing the stills photos *~*

Most of the movie is filmed at night, I noticed that they use Arri lights outside the house to flood light in through the windows. They're like 1k-4k lights depending on what they need to light inside and what they need to light outside (some lights are facing trees and some are shining through the window). Then inside the house to light the actors nicer, they're using Kinoflo lights that I'm assuming are daylight balanced as they're cooler. On top of that they're covering any light outside and inside with blue gels to make it appear as if it's night. And in the corners they're lighting little tiny Arri's with warm gels to give that tungsten look.

Anyway, I wrote a post a while back trying to understand what I would need for my own little indie film. And after seeing this movie, I've realized that:
A) most of the stuff I think I need, I can't afford.
B) I need a lot of stuff, but renting is expensive and buying would allow me to use it multiple times until I've built up a nice little reel for myself.

So I was thinking, I'm not getting HMIs because they're to expensive on a whim, so Kinoflo's looked really nice to me, and they're not horridly expensive. I am going to assume I couldn't use them to light the outside of a house, but I could use them for interior close range shots (a space no bigger then 250 sqft).. But then I thought, there must be cheaper brands out there that'll work just as well... Or perhaps I could even do it myself.
After more research I realized that I'd need a Ballast, which I'm guessing is to regulate the output power. Also I'd need special bulbs, but honestly the casing I could make myself, looking at the kinoflo cases I could do that no problem with $50 worth of materials.

I think after the kinoflo type lights, my 5D a good steadicam and a tripod would be all I need to get excellent video... Sound I'm going to get a beachtek dxa-2s device which hooks up to my camera and allows me to record two XLR input sound devices at the same time. Question though, it runs the noise back to my 5D will the 5D understand that it's two separate tracks and record it as such?

So does anyone know of any brands I can buy that would have 200w or more power using tube florescent lights, that are flicker free and daylight balanced that cost less then Kinoflo?

Also something else I noticed that I found funny...
The Redone camera they are using picks up light way different then my camera.
I set my settings to the same as there camera, and when I take a quick video it looks completely different, not just colorwise, but like the way the camera sees light, as in my camera hits shadows and highlights, while the red keeps everything neutral across the board.
I guess thats the difference $50k makes

Yeah, so any help on Kinoflo alternatives would be great.

Thanks guys,
Adam

Jul 21, 2009 at 03:56 AM

Micky Bill
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p.1 #2 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

http://www.amvona.com/shop?page=shop.browse&category_id=63

I don't know about the quality of these lights but they are cheaper than Kinoflo. Although not that much cheaper than a lot of the Kinoflos that are on Craigslist everyday here in LA.

Jul 21, 2009 at 04:14 AM

PeterBerressem
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p.1 #3 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

http://en.softbox.r09.rololight.com/iiix/home/
I regard the Rololight as a viable alternative to Kinoflos. Stackable as you go

Jul 21, 2009 at 08:31 AM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #4 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Kinos have replaceable tubes that come in different color temperatures, and can be mix-and-match, so you can really get whatever color balance you want from them before even introducing gels to the mix. I know a lot of DPs will use 2 daylight tubes and 2 tungsten tubes to get nice warm light with the 4x4 banks.

You might also consider fixtures like RifaLights and DivaLights if you're looking for cool lights. I believe they're both more affordable than Kinos.

I've told you this before, but I really don't think you're going to be happy using the 5D for an all-in-one capture device - it's just not made for recording audio, especially not with an outboard mixer. If you must do it, rather than using an external digital recorder and a slate for sync, at least invest in a portable field mixer and use a wireless transmitter or tether to get audio into the camera from there. You need real level meters and control, not indeterminate camera processing logic and all your audio coming in over a mini-plug. I'd still go with an external WAV recorder personally.

Jul 21, 2009 at 02:36 PM

adamdewilde
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p.1 #5 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Simon, have any ideas on where to start putting one of those audio kits together?
I was talking to the audio man last night, he mentioned the same thing as you, but when I enquired about his rig, it was around 13k

I'd need a whole setup for only a few hundred.

Ideally I'd get a boom mic, and a boom arm, but would like to also get a boom stand so that way I don't always need an assistant, then I would get some type of audio recording device that I guess sends a wireless signal to my 5DII, or something that records separate that I just sync up later in FCP.

Guys I'll look up Rololights (they use kinoflo bulbs?), and amvona seems decently priced. I'll also check out Rifalights, but Divalights aren't they just kinoflo's other type of light?

Thanks,
Adam

Jul 22, 2009 at 01:59 AM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #6 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

adamdewilde wrote:
I'd need a whole setup for only a few hundred.

And I need a 4-bedroom apartment in Manhattan for the $35 that's in my wallet right now. Some things just cost what they cost...you shouldn't even be trying to shoot an indie film with mics alone that cost less than a few hundred. Even a decent sock for a boom mic can run over a hundred bucks, as can a pair of professional studio monitor headphones.

You aren't going to do what you want to do for a few hundred dollars. My simplest-of-simple audio package for doing ENG video shoots costs over $1000 and is truly basic.

Here's your basic digital recorders with some simple field-mixer functionality - no timecode though so you'll be manually-syncing every take you roll (shouldn't matter since your 5D can't output SMPTE timecode anyway):

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542280-REG/Edirol_Roland_R_44_R_44_Solid_State_Four_Channel_Portable.html#features

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/283850-REG/Marantz_PMD670_PMD_670_Portable_CompactFlash_Recorder.html#features

I don't think you'll get by putting a boom mic on a stand. Are your actors never going to move? So why do you want a Steadicam?

To be honest, you're going to spend a lot of money to get a 5D to the point where it's appropriate for shooting even simple indie narrative flicks. A little Steadicam Jr. isn't going to cut it...you're going to need a real fluid-head tripod kit, a camera sled with focus-pull gears, LCD monitor for video tap, matte box, the aforementioned audio kit, slate...and that now sounds like a 3-4 man operating crew, assuming your audio op can run a boom and mixer/recorder at the same time. The second you want to do even a wheelchair dolly shot you're adding another person. Want someone adjusting a light while you're looking through the lens? That's another person. Ever try racking focus while doing a walking handheld or Steadicam shot? That's why people have focus-pullers...that's another person. And if you plan on directing from behind the camera...Luc Besson can do it and Steven Soderbergh can do it and that's about all that comes to mind. Watching a performance while worrying about focus and composition means something's not getting all of your attention.

It's cool that you're getting excited about the medium from the project you're working on now but I think you might want to spend a little more time in it before you start investing in the idea of doing it, especially with a tool that isn't built for the purpose. If you really do want to pursue it, I'd consider just adding an aftermarket MF lens kit to something like an XH-A1 or HVR-Z1U instead.

Jul 22, 2009 at 12:22 PM

adamdewilde
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p.1 #7 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Yes, totally agree with you Simon...
Crap, audio gear is expensive...

I'm actually filming a corporate video though... I have a static camera, lights and thats where I was thinking a mic on a boom to shoot the guy I'm interviewing. Then his voice will carry throughout the scenes where I steadicam around the offices etc.. I've seem amazing stuff done with what I'm describing right now... Once thats done, and done successfully (cross fingers).. I'm going to start working on little small indie commercials er short reel clips if you wanna call them that.

Anyway, first is first, I need to get good audio for the interview, is there a possibility of doing that with a mic directly inserted into the 5D, then running a wire up to the boom where the mic is situated on a stand above the client?

Second, I can see that I'm going to just have to rent as much as I can for my short little "films".

Edited on Jul 22, 2009 at 08:16 PM · View previous versions

Jul 22, 2009 at 08:14 PM

mmurph
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p.1 #8 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

You may be interested in this:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/gh1.shtml

And this:

http://blog.sinarbron.com/2009/07/broncolor-mechanism-digital-convergence-convened/

On "convergence."

Jul 22, 2009 at 10:50 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #9 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

adamdewilde wrote:
I'm actually filming a corporate video though... I have a static camera, lights and thats where I was thinking a mic on a boom to shoot the guy I'm interviewing. Then his voice will carry throughout the scenes where I steadicam around the offices etc..

A boom mic is the wrong tool for that job, honestly, and it's both more work and expense than you need. This is the kind of thing that's my bread and butter work - I knock these things out, got one on Monday that I'll do as a 2-man crew. You don't want a boom at all, you want a lavalier mic and can probably get by with a wired one. A basic one will cost you about $150...spend $300 for a decent one. Corporate video clients are totally used to seeing mics pinned on people for interview shoots. It's the "suspension of disbelief" stuff, like commercials and narrative work, where you can't afford to see a mic and need to use booms to keep them out of the shots.

Anyway, first is first, I need to get good audio for the interview, is there a possibility of doing that with a mic directly inserted into the 5D, then running a wire up to the boom where the mic is situated on a stand above the client?

The 5D uses a mini-plug for audio, right? No idea whether it's expecting line level, mic level or is variable. Any wired mic worth having, that isn't intended for use on a computer with a webcam or for audioconferencing, is going to end in a mic-level XLR connection and quite likely require phantom power. You're going to have to put some sort of mixer in between the mic and camera or work with a wireless mic that can give you the proper output level and doesn't mind being adapted down to 1/8"-mini. A lot of wired lavalier and shotgun mics have an inline preamp that can power the mic with a AA or 9V battery, so if the 5D can take mic level audio you'd just have to adapt them down to mini.

Second, I can see that I'm going to just have to rent as much as I can for my short little "films".

That's the same boat that most people are in, excepting some professional DPs who are owner/operators. I've got a small HD camera package, enough lighting to shoot a sit-down ENG- or documentary-style interview, a few wireless and wired mics, some additional gear for things like hard-disk capture and teleprompting. It doesn't really make sense to own much more than that: I'd need multiple bodies to operate more than that, which means I'd need a budget to pay for them, which means there's a client who can foot the bill for me to hire on whatever else I need. I don't see much reason to spend stuff like $2,000 on a KinoFlo bank when I can rent it for $40 and mark it up to $150 to the client.

Jul 23, 2009 at 01:43 AM

mmurph
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p.1 #10 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

B&H had a newsletter with an outline of audio options for the 5DII.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/newsLetter/Sweet-Sounds-of-HD.jsp

Discussion of power, plugs, and some sample files from different on-camera mics that you can listen to.

Not exactly what you need, but some of the basics discussed.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/newsLetter/Anatomy-of-an-Audio-Bag.jsp

Jul 23, 2009 at 02:59 AM

adamdewilde
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p.1 #11 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Cool guys thanks!

I will read all the links, and I'll think about your words Simon.

Thanks guys, I have a good starting point!

Jul 23, 2009 at 05:58 PM

E-Vener
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p.1 #12 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Rololight makes great, versatile, lower cost, and relatively unheralded alternatives to Kinoflo

http://en.r09.corporation.rololight.com/iiix/splash/

I've used my 8 tube bank for years and have rented it out to indie film makers who liked it so much they have bought their own.

Jul 24, 2009 at 12:32 AM

adamdewilde
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p.1 #13 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

E-Vener, what type of exposure settings would you typically get from the 8tube bank, at say 10ft away from the model.. like 50th of a second at what f/stop, and ISO. I know this is a strange question and kinda sounds very photographic in my asking, but I'm not good with watts and actual watts vs ecofriendly energy saving numbers etc...

Best,
Adam

P.S. A few major motion pictures being filmed currently are actually using 5DIIs for some if not all scenes (depending on the movie)... I think it's just there way of saying HAH we can do it!! However, they're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on everything else that goes into making a good movie, we shouldn't forget. Hope wise... just a little brighter my dream seems.

Jul 24, 2009 at 07:32 PM

Jarrad Kevin
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p.1 #14 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

http://www.coollights.biz/ for a less expensive lighting option.

Jul 24, 2009 at 07:45 PM

shatterkiss
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p.1 #15 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

adamdewilde wrote:
P.S. A few major motion pictures being filmed currently are actually using 5DIIs for some if not all scenes (depending on the movie)... I think it's just there way of saying HAH we can do it!! However, they're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on everything else that goes into making a good movie, we shouldn't forget. Hope wise... just a little brighter my dream seems.

You sure of that? Can you cite sources? I'd be very, very surprised considering that RED kits are available for rental at very reasonable prices.

Jul 24, 2009 at 08:04 PM

Lithian
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p.1 #16 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Before the manual control firmware for the 5dmk2 came out there were a few rumours like this one here which says it was being used on the set of the current Potter film, there was another rumor about another film but i can't remember now.

I havn't seen anything more substantial than that... however they would surely make quite good cameras for behind the scenes dvd extra kind of stuff which is what i'd read into the 'used on the set' part. I don't *think* they would be filming proper scenes with it but it could be useful for putting in hard to reach or dangerous places. Would be better to risk a $4k 5d rig than a $40k red rig at any budget.

If it had been used in a big feature film would canon not have a PR statement about it?

Jul 25, 2009 at 10:32 PM

adamdewilde
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p.1 #17 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

I've heard they're using it on the set of Iron Man 2, and I know that they've used it on a few commercials and television shows.

Anyway, thinking of getting the Marantz, with a Rode Shotgun mic of sorts.. However this is slightly cheaper and I hear it's better: Fostex FR-2 LE - 2-Channel Compact Flash Field Recorder
This is coming from Vincent's site, so maybe he has ad obligations to Fostex?..

Anyone care to chime in on this?

Jul 26, 2009 at 12:59 PM

kkertz
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p.1 #18 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Fostex Man will chime in...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMwZfcXZFas

Jul 26, 2009 at 03:59 PM

adamdewilde
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p.1 #19 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

I've listened to BHphotos video, and I don't understand something...

Assuming I'm either doing interviews or short films.
Ok or not, if I were to buy a field recorder, then stick one boom on a pole and plug it into the recorder then I were to get myself a wireless mic and also plug it in, would I be able record sound from both devices separately on my field recorder?
At the same time, would I be able to have a set of headphones plugged into the system for the audio guy, as well as a set of headphones wirelessly plugged into me, so I could also hear the sound?
Then the 5D just records its own crappy sound, and then in editing I just line up the sound clips manually? Or is there a way to then feed that sound into the 5D without getting that annoying hiss? So it both records two separate tracks on my field recorder, and one joined audio track on my 5D?

For all this to be possible, I need a recorder, are the ones from Fostex or the Maratz able to do this?
I also need a boom arm and boom mic, and a wireless lav mic plus a headset and another headset with wireless device.

Any recommendations for all this, but decent and cheap?

Also I'm curious as to why the 5D hisses, it's because I hear that you can't control the audio gain in camera. Usually you end up needing something like that beachtec 5D specific device or a Juiceit device no?

Has anyone tried the hack that allows for volume control?

Adam

Jul 27, 2009 at 09:25 AM

Ray Gunnell
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p.1 #20 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Regarding the 5D on major movie sets, they've given them to actors and production assistants to do behind the scenes and extras features. The actual filming is still being done with the normal gear.

Jul 28, 2009 at 11:53 PM

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p.1 #21 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

shatterkiss wrote:
You sure of that? Can you cite sources? I'd be very, very surprised considering that RED kits are available for rental at very reasonable prices.

I can confirm it - not sure I can say the name of the production company, but Lensrentals outfitted a number of 5DIIs with Zeiss lenses for use in the action scenes of a war movie being filmed right now: they have cameraman dressed in uniform shooting them on shoulder mounts in the scenes to get different points of view - figuring if one of the other cameramen are filmed in the background of a given shot, they'll pass off as soldiers shooting some odd weapon.

Jul 29, 2009 at 12:37 PM

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p.1 #22 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

But that's still a specialty purpose, y'know? That's not truly principal photography, which Adam was implying...it's not even sync-sound photography.

Specialty cameras have long been used in situations like that. Crash cameras, aerial photography, car mounts, remotes on big multi-cam (5+) stunt setups, snorkel cams, computer-controlled rigs on tabletop miniatures for compositing...that I can understand. The question was whether you could use a DSLR to shoot HD principal photography for live action and I still think the chips are seriously stacked against you. The form factor is all wrong, the treatment of audio is a joke, the shutter-roll is an issue, the investment in accessories that you need to make the handling reasonable pushes you back towards the price range of other established solutions.

Jul 29, 2009 at 01:25 PM

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p.1 #23 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Simon: just a short note of thanks for all the experience you share with us in the forums. I'm just an interested bystander in most of these exchanges, but you have certainly given me a lot of great info.
Best,
Andy

Jul 29, 2009 at 02:59 PM

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p.1 #24 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Totally my pleasure!

Jul 29, 2009 at 05:23 PM

adamdewilde
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p.1 #25 · Indie Film Maker.... Kinoflo alternatives?

Simon, as always great info...
I do believe that you are right in a sense. And I understand where you're coming from.

FYI
Crank2 was filmed using XH-A1s as well as a few other small canon handicams.
I know they're both dedicated video cameras and the 5D lacks in a lot of areas.
The movie wasn't exactly a visual masterpiece like Munich but it was fun.

But hear me out, an XH-A1 and a 5D are about the same price, you still need to add a FF system to the XH-A1 as well as rails etc etc.. Same with the 5D, the only thing is with the XH-A1 you would need a letus or similar which costs as much as an audio rig for the 5D...

I already have the 5D and lenses, and I don't have an XH-A1, so I figure why not try with it.

As far as lighting, and owning a dolly and tracks, and sliders and fluid heads etc etc.. You would need all that no matter what camera you own, correct?

So with all the awesome videos I've seen so far shot with the 5D, and all the "rumors" which will eventually become truths about the 5D being used for movies... Why couldn't someone use it?

I'll give you a good example..
The production I just helped out on, I was using my 5DII for movie stills and behind the scenes video, I happened to setup my camera one night next to the Redsystem to shoot the scene for the heck of it.. Honestly speaking when both videos were loaded onto the computer and played full screen I didn't have any complaints about the 5D that would justify the price of the red. And aside from the audio, which BTW was being recorded on a separate machine, and I could have easily used the sound. Nothing was really that different.
My camera renders colors differently thats about it, and honestly I could have fixed that in the profile settings for the camera before I started recording.
I can't share the clip for obvious reasons, but with professional lighting and professional sound setups the 5D is a pretty decent image maker, for both stills and videos.

Now maybe if you tried to show the 5D clip in a movie theater on a projector it might look ugly and the red would win, but for home DVD use on a regular 24" mac monitor it seems about the same.

I know I'm overlooking frame rate, jello effect etc etc, but I'm saying if you wanted to prove a point you could use it.
Perhaps thats what the movie houses (the ones using one) are doing with the 5D, they're proving a point.

Best,
Adam

P.S. Please jump over to my other topic, the lighting question about cinema, as I need some help!

Jul 30, 2009 at 03:12 PM


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