Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

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Tim Speciale
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p.2 #1 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

snaptie2002 wrote:
Tim Speciale wrote:
I hate people.

Hey........that would make a great company slogan. You should put it on your business card.

For those with an untrained eye,that's sarcasm ^

Marty

Secretly, it's in every sales pitch i've made...subliminally.

Jul 04, 2009 at 03:45 AM

Joe Winn
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p.2 #2 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Some answers...

I shoot with a MkII and 300 2.8LIS.

I upload originals...you never know if someone wants a 4x6 or a 30x40. With a smug pro site you have unlimited storage so it's not an issue.

When customers buy prints from a smug site they are printed and shipped from smugmug labs. Their credit card invoice says "smugmug" not "Winning Photography". Smugmug takes the money and then pays me my cut at the end of the month. If I didn't specify backprinting with my name the customer would have no idea (besides the fact that they came to my site in the first place) it came from my camera.

So, when customers have printing issues they are directed to contact smugmug by the documents inside the shipment..

I can see where you guys are coming from about photoshopping my work...but I don't think the sale could have been saved any other way.

I outgrew smugmug about a year ago but haven't had the money to have my own site created...until a few weeks ago. A fellow FM'er is creating a nice new site for me that will allow me to keep all of my sales and control transactions from start to finish. I can't wait

Jul 04, 2009 at 04:05 AM

wyofizz
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p.2 #3 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Joe,
I'm still curious. Could the leg "funk" be seen on SmugMug or not?

Dave

Jul 04, 2009 at 04:49 AM

WmPat
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p.2 #4 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

I am glad that the situation had an outcome acceptable to the OP and that he didn't lose the sale. But at the same time I am a little bit uncomfortable with smugmug retouching the photo without the photographer having a say in advance. This might be a slippery slope that leads to some poor quality editing that could result in a lost sale and a black mark against the photog. It might be smartest to keep this Pandora in her box.

Jul 04, 2009 at 04:58 AM

Jeff Napier
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p.2 #5 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

I use smugmug as well and while I have had issue with some of the things they have done, they are always polite and handle even an irritated person (me

) very commly and profesionaly.
While I dont think this is common practice at smugmug I do think they were trying to make a customer happy and salvage the sale. Although Joe never did say (unless I missed it) if the customer did go ahead and buy the altered photo I assume they did from the later post by Joe.
It may have been better for them to contact Joe to do the alterations, I think if he (Joe) is OK with it why should he be chastised for allowing something that happened that was out of his control .
From what it sounds like they did the alteration and contacted the customer and just handled it without asking Joe. Its not like they added a ball,it was "leg fat" for crying out loud...lol.
Its probebly in there agreement somewhere that we signed when we took on this service.
Besides they even offered to give her money back if it wasnt acceptable.

"Complaining because the picture was too real and sharp!"

Almost as bad as people complaining that they are getting to much customer service.WTH?

I can see out growing smugmug in another year or so also but I will more than likely sign up for a second year come October, best 150.00 bucks I've spent, more than paid for itself. If you dont think it was right for them (SM) to do what they did,... I wouldnt use them if I were you.
Seems to of had a happy ending for everyone involved, even if SM did over step there bounds a bit.
jni-ss

Jul 04, 2009 at 06:07 AM

Joe Winn
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p.2 #6 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

I've been very happy with SM. No complaints ever.

It's just time for me to get a real website and take control of my own printing and profits. SM web customization can only take you so far so it's time to move on...

Jul 04, 2009 at 06:50 AM

fotojeroen
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p.2 #7 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Come on, why are they crying for that. That's just the real thing. If you don't like that kind of images, stop playing soccer and try to climb to the dangerous levels of the dark chess world.

Maybey it can be solved for the future with plastic surgery. I would strongly argue with the editor because they violated your copyright (in my country it's not allowed bij law to alter images without permission of the photographer)

Jul 04, 2009 at 10:11 AM

WalnutPond
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p.2 #8 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

10 bucks says the mother complaining has quite a bit more leg wobble than that girl.

Unfirickeing believeable people want custom photoshop jobs on a $15 8x10. Can I come out and wash your car and tuck you in bed tonight as well for that price, maam?

Jul 04, 2009 at 01:57 PM

wyofizz
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p.2 #9 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

SM should have contacted you first. I would have offered the PP at an additional charge. She saw the photo before she ordered it and still ordered.

Dave

Jul 04, 2009 at 03:36 PM

pappawheely
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p.2 #10 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Just add some vaseline to the lens filter.

Jul 05, 2009 at 03:54 PM

dmwierz
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p.2 #11 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Even pro athletes, in tip-top physical condition, will show this phenomenon on their legs or arms when under extreme exertion.

Getting back to the original thread, I think SmugMug did well by "their" customer, however Joe is also a customer of theirs, and if it were me, I would have appreciated being contacted.

2008 © dmwierz

Jul 05, 2009 at 04:47 PM

Russ Isabella
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p.2 #12 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

I don't think that any of us who shoot sports would question the existence of shots like this. I also don't think that we would argue against the suggestion that these kinds of shots are less than flattering. Thus, I don't find it surprising at all that the mother would be taken aback and unhappy about what she saw in the enlargement, particularly if the (visual) subject of this discussion was not evident from the version posted on the website. This is the one question that hasn't yet been answered in this thread--is it reasonable to expect that this mother should have known what she was getting given what she had access to on the smugmug site? Is the ripple evident in the preview image? It doesn't matter that we're talking about a normal human phenomenon. What matters is whether the customer got what she thought she was paying for. (My guess is that regardless of how 'visible' it was, unless you were aware of the possibility of this type of capture and were looking for it, you'd miss it. Best solution would be another photo of her daughter.)

Regarding Smugmug, I too think they went too far without bringing Joe into the loop.

Jul 05, 2009 at 05:58 PM

snaptie2002
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p.2 #13 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

If you have an ongoing problem with that sort of thing a simple solution would be to activate the proof option and give yourself a day or two to review and correct your photos before printing and shipping. Otherwise you need to be very careful what you display for sale.

A short note to smugmug should straighten out the don't touch my photo issue. Those guys are great to work with.

As for charging extra for post processing, especially for a $10.00-$15.00 action photo......that's not for me. It's like saying "Here's a crappy photo of your kid. For a fee I will make it a decent photo of your kid". I would rather present a good photo to start with and leave it at that.

And Yes, a photo can be too sharp and real. If I sit for a portrait , for example, I don't want to see every nook and cranny put on my face by nearly half a century of hard living. Feel free to hit it with the blur tool

Marty

Jul 05, 2009 at 07:19 PM

wyofizz
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p.2 #14 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Snap and Russ,
You brought up a couple of excellent points

1) Display resolution of your pics. There are many that think images should be displayed at very low rez in order to prevent theft vs. watermark. This thread could be valuable for those trying to make a decision.
Also, the customer shouldn't have to guess about what their getting.
I did go to Joe's gallery and it looks like the display photo's are of sufficient rez
to have seen "the" leg. I didn't take the time to try and find "it" however.

2) The proof option is a great point. I've had to call a customer a couple of times when I thought the photo wasn't up to snuff (missed during pre processing).

Dave

Jul 05, 2009 at 07:52 PM

Joe Winn
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p.2 #15 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

I upload originals and set my viewing resolution to xl.

I have the proof option set up already because 99% of the people don't know about or how to use the crop tool...so I use the proof option to crop the images.

The "too sharp" issue has never come up before. And honestly I am not going to change anything because of it. I shoot as sharp and tight as I can and that's not going to change

When the images go up on the viewing screens they need to see immediately that I take shots mom and dad are never going to get.

This is a one in a million instance so I thought I'd share it with you because it's such an odd instance. I'm not going to call smugmug except to thank them for handling the issue so well. I don't mind that they modified the image to satisfy the customer...she's happy so I'm happy.

I'm not going to go through 5,000 images and look for things like this before I upload either. I don't have a studio and I don't do portraits. I take the best, sharpest action shots that I can...always. If this ever comes up again then I will do my best to explain what they see and make them happy. Blur tools are not in my toolbox

I won't mind going to Sears and getting one if necessary but only if it will save a sale.

Jul 05, 2009 at 08:22 PM

Andy
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p.2 #16 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Joe Winn wrote:

This is a one in a million instance so I thought I'd share it with you because it's such an odd instance.

I'm glad this all worked out. 99.99 % of the time, when we deal with situations like this, everyone's thrilled - and most pros are thrilled as they've been freed up from the customer service bit (that's what you're paying us for!) ... Steve should have mailed you, if he didn't that's a mistake (even we make 'em, though rarely!) ... holler to me at our help desk ATTN: Andy in the subject line if you ever want to talk about it.

Oh and to dmwierz, thanks for ruining Sharapova for me!

Jul 09, 2009 at 09:42 PM

James Broome
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p.2 #17 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Nice of Andy from Smugmug to chime in.

Good folks over there, by the way. Been a happy camper for 4 years now.

Jul 09, 2009 at 10:33 PM

HAYNBUCKEYE
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p.2 #18 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

wyofizz wrote:
So now Action Sports photogs must raise the bar to editing out skin imperfections
like portrait photogs but we can only charge $15 for a 8x10?

Dave

+1

This is the same reason we see so many great soccer shots of teenage girls go by without being sold. They're more about "glamour" when they're supposed to look like an athlete in the action photos.

Jul 10, 2009 at 02:10 AM

Joe Winn
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p.2 #19 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Andy, Steve emailed me after the fact showing exactly what he did. I am glad he handled it the way he did and am completely satisfied.

You guys have been great.

Jul 10, 2009 at 03:53 AM

Steve Ickes
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p.2 #20 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

Although I do agree that SmugMug handled it very politely and professionally, I would never expect nor require my lab to do any post work on my images beyond the basic printing functions such as adjusting sharpness, contrast, color, and WB. Additionally I definitely wouldn't want my lab's logo plastered all over my images.

I've been using Exposure Manager for three years now and their service and printing services are top-notch. Whenever an image issue has come up, they contact me not the client. In addition it's my logo that's on the mailing label and not theirs. I think that they have the right attitude in that I am their customer and my customers are mine.

$15 for an 8x10? Wow!!

Jul 10, 2009 at 04:29 AM

John--G
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p.2 #21 · Apparently I've been doing it wrong this whole time?

wyofizz wrote:
So now Action Sports photogs must raise the bar to editing out skin imperfections
like portrait photogs but we can only charge $15 for a 8x10?

Dave

I do! Especially with girls high school sports. If I have a killer shot like this and it has marks similar to these I either edit them slightly or I delete the shot. I figure I might as well because no matter how terrific the shot may be, they are going to hate it due to the way their leg looks. Silly? Yes. But that's the way it is.

I've even had sprinters and hurdlers complain because their hair was messed up.

Jul 10, 2009 at 11:20 AM


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