That's exactly the sort of math going on in my head.
Even good old dpreview agrees with us here, Richard: "approaching pocketable if you're wearing an overcoat."
Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
Regarding weight, the 500D is 520g with the battery and the EP-1 is 410g with the battery. Regardless of how old you are or what your gender is, 110g is irrevelant.
picnic wrote:
I love my 5D--I feel almost 'bonded' --but gender (hate to say that, but our upper body strength is just less and so I think it 'weighs' on us for a long day of carrying) and age (probably more of it) enter into it also. I've carried a largish camera since I went digital in 2000--well, actually the larger ones from 2001--sometimes with grips. Before that film cameras that, though not small, were def. smaller--and usually only with 2 lenses (I hardly believe that myself). I can handle my 5D kit for part days or part by car, but for long days or where we're on paths that always seem up--I need something smaller.
I can also see those that want to carry cameras with them daily, urban style shooting, would much rather have a small camera/lens that they feel comfortable with and that they can count on for good files.
It's not just Gender. I'm male, 6'3" and 285lbs. I don't tend to like big/heavy cameras. Mostly because I'm hauling other stuff with me most times (Just returned to school after more than a decade in the workforce, engineering texts are big & heavy) and also because I tend to carry the camera in-hand most of the time and a 800+ gram body like the 5D just doesn't carry well like that. Also the large 35mm bodies are really neither here nor there for me. if I'm going to haul that kind of weight, I'd rather haul my 645. As to the 450D/500D, I'm not willing to put up with the tiny, hard to focus finder and lack of flip/twist LCD. The G1 is significantly better in both regards.
brainiac wrote:
My point was that it's not pocketable. That was the disappointment for me.
I reckon depths without lens caps to be as follows:
E-P1 with 17mm lens ...... ~ 65mm
"" with smallest CV ..... ~ 65mm
"" with 14-42mm ....... ~ 80mm
450D with Oly 40 ........... ~ 85mm
"" with Oly 21 ............ ~ 91mm
It would be great if someone could confirm mount-to-lens-cap dimensions of the smallest M lenses in the wide to normal ranges. I reckon E-P1 with M adaptor is about 45mm deep.
With the 17mm, you're looking at 56mm not 65mm (36mm body, 20mm lens), the CV's should be about 60-70mm depending on mount-filter ring size (I'm not sure exactly how CV specs lens length on their RF lenses). Also note the 14-42 is rather much longer when not collapsed.
cogitech wrote:
Regarding weight, the 500D is 520g with the battery and the EP-1 is 410g with the battery. Regardless of how old you are or what your gender is, 110g is irrevelant.
I'm sitting here with a 400D with 28 f/1.8 on it and the G1 with an FD 24 f/2.8. I don't know the weights--but the G1 feels lighter/smaller in hand. That's where it counts overall. The 400D also 'klunkier' and that hasn't changed to the 500D--similar shape. 110g isn't really the issue, is it? I"m not touting the EP-1--I haven't tried it for myself, but I do know that I've carried the 400D and the G1 with similar FL and it feels quite different. Then--put the 14-45 on the G1 and anything that covers the same FL/speed on the 400-500D and there you'll see a really big difference.
I, personally, don't think I would put a zoom on the EP-1 but others have tried the 7-14 and 45-200 and feel its nicely balanced.
If you are thinking pocketable, then your choices are different. If you are thinking small, then there are a few new choices. No one can tell me if they have to carry a bag that they might as well carry the 5D--been there, done that for almost 4 years and largish DLSRs prior to that. .
Note that 110g difference between the E-P1 and 450D is almost identical to the 130g difference between the DP-2 and E-P1. It's a fairly significant difference at their weights (500D is 25% heavier than E-P1, E-P1 is 46% heavier than the DP-2). The practical difference may be little, but it is very easily felt.
picnic wrote:
No one can tell me if they have to carry a bag that they might as well carry the 5D--been there, done that for almost 4 years and largish DLSRs prior to that. .
Diane
I respect your preferences and I'm not trying to convince you to just tough it out with your 5D. All I'm saying is that I have tried several smaller cameras and invariably always regretted not having my 5D, since I had to bring a bag to carry any of these "almost pocketable" cameras anyway.
I was initially excited by the prospect of having a pocketable digital version of my EE-2. It still doesn't exist, so the 5D is still my best choice even if that means I leave it at home a lot.
Re: G1; I really need to play with it to comment on it, but I suspect it will end up in the same category as all the rest (for me so far).
cogitech wrote:
Re: G1; I really need to play with it to comment on it, but I suspect it will end up in the same category as all the rest (for me so far).
Paul,
If you make it to one of the TPMG socials, I invariably have my G1 on me. I should have one of the smaller lens options soon as well.
I personally find it just about the perfect combination of quality and portability, at least for my needs.
If you make it to one of the TPMG socials, I invariably have my G1 on me. I should have one of the smaller lens options soon as well.
I personally find it just about the perfect combination of quality and portability, at least for my needs.
Thanks for the offer, Adam. I might just do that.
How would the G1 work out for someone who has no interest at all in AF, live view, LCDs and all that jazz? Someone who is addicted to manually focusing with a huge, super-precise VF?
cogitech wrote:
Thanks for the offer, Adam. I might just do that.
How would the G1 work out for someone who has no interest at all in AF, live view, LCDs and all that jazz? Someone who is addicted to manually focusing with a huge, super-precise VF?
I don't do AF, live view I do, but it's a whole different ballgame with a flip/twist LCD. I almost never used it on the D300.
The G1's EVF is large (not huge, but neither is the 5D's, the two are similar sized), quite precise and has 10x zoom as an option for when you need extreme precision. It's very good to manual focus on, particularly with fast glass. I have no issues nailing focus with f1.4 lenses wide open. Frankly it is in my opinion the best sub-35mm platform for manual focus.
The downside? You'll start pricing really exotic lenses. Like C mount stuff and RF lenses.
cogitech wrote:
What you've just said about manual focusing has me very interested in the G1, now.
Indeed, that is a dangerous downside
What's the best manual "standard" lens for the G1, in your opinion?
That I've used? The CV 25mm f4 (tiny, sharp, not terribly fast). I'm seriously waiting for the upcoming 20mm f1.7 from Panasonic, which will likely be my main normal. I'm mostly using a Tamron Adaptall-2 28mm f2.5 as my normal until I find a better compact normal.
Normals are probably the biggest weakness of the system right now, since you pretty much have a pick between large but good (various fast 28's and 24's), small and slow, or Leica's improbably expensive options (the huge 4/3rds 25/1.4 or the ungodly expensive Summilux-M 21 or 24's) or dealing with edge performance issues with the faster RF wides (which can 'smear' at the edges due to lack of telecentricity) like the CV 28/1.9 and 28/2.
The best options are in short/medium tele's, ie adapted 35's, 40's and 50's. The CV 15's are also reportedly excellent performers, as are the 21/4 and 25/4 Color-Skopars.
cogitech wrote:
Yeah, that 2x factor. Man, that's hard to swallow... Again, if it was truly pocketable then I might force myself to overlook lack of FF.
I think I have to just admit to myself that the camera I want will never exist.
As the system matures, options will appear. It's pretty clear that both Olympus and Panasonic realize that primes are strongly desired in the system, since there's now almost as many primes announced/shown for m43 from Panasonic and Olympus as there is for normal-range primes from teh same 2 makers in 4/3rds (17/2.8, 20/1.7, 45/2.8 OIS macro for m43, 25/1.4, 25/2.8, 35/3.5 and 50/2 for 4/3rds) despite 4/3rds being a 6 year old system.
I'd also be interested in seeing Panasonic's compact model. It's rumoured we'll see one later this year, possibly as the LX3 replacement. The biggest problem will be that sticking a 3" LCD on it will not leave room for an EVF in a compact model. I'd like to see a clip-on EVF a la Ricoh GX100 as the solution, rather than the clip-on OVF of the E-P1 and LX3.
For me it's not simply about whether it will fit in a pocket (though I wear duffle coats 6 months of the year and I am certain that it will). It's about having a second body for casual shooting that doesn't look like an SLR. It's about discretion as much as pocketability, and, seeing as I'd have to use liveview to focus any of my alt lenses on a 450D or 500D, the lack of an EVF is of very little consequence. I'm looking at a 2 lens kit with this camera - the 17 (or the Panasonic 20 when it comes out, subject to decent IQ) and a Konica 40mm 1.8.
The second lens will definitely fit in a pocket, and the body with lens attached will fit in a jacket pocket for me. No camera will fit in my pants pocket...
So this camera makes sense. I have also bought an EOS adapter so that I can use all of my Alt lenses on the EP-1 with minimal hassle.
I'm always wary when I see that many MP crammed into a sensor the size of a [insert small object], but I will certainly look into it more, as I have heard nothing but good things about the F30/1. Thanks.
I was also loking at a truly pocketable cmera after the E-P1 comes in, but for me the F200 was neither here nor there. It is not far enough from the G10 to be out of the way in clothing -then again, I also don't like carrying a wallet, so pocketable is pretty subjective I guess
I did take some photos with it though and it is nicely responsive.
Yes, pocketable very much depends on how big your pockets are! For example, the rear pockets in a bicycle jersey or the cargo pockets in cargo shorts are plenty large enough for an EP-1 and a prime. If you're like me, you have those two kinds of pockets in over 75% of your shooting (mountain biking, cycling, backpacking and most travel situations).
So for me, the EP-1 is pocketable.
I'm very much looking forward to replacing my E-420 + 25mm f/2.8 pancake lens with an EP-1 + 17mm f/2.8 pancake lens.
--but gender (hate to say that, but our upper body strength is just less and so I think it 'weighs' on us for a long day of carrying) and age (probably more of it) enter into it also. I've carried a largish camera since I went digital in 2000--well, actually the larger ones from 2001--sometimes with grips. Before that film cameras that, though not small, were def. smaller--and usually only with 2 lenses (I hardly believe that myself). I can handle my 5D kit for part days or part by car, but for
