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Archive 2009 · d300 to d700 or not???
  
 
Josiah Jones
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p.4 #1 · d300 to d700 or not???


I have both the D200 and the D700. For low iso, each does fine....
But when I crank up the ISO on the D700 I am always amazed. In fact, i shot a wedding recently in pretty tough room lighting conditions ....using ISO 2000 and natural room light ( a few tungsten ceiling lights scattered around).....amazing results and minimal noise.....amazing....did I say amazing?? Did all inside shots with the D700 and the Nikon 24-70 f2.8. and hand held every shot. I am a happy man.

Jun 18, 2009 at 02:41 AM
theSuede
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p.4 #2 · d300 to d700 or not???


Well, exposures are all-important as you say. Unfortunately for your arguments, digital isn't grain-limited as analog film is - and you actually loose LESS light to technical losses when spreading the same amount of light over a larger area (until you get down to compact-size sensors around 7-9mm size or so - they have higher efficiency per mm2).

I HAVE done the tests, believe me. 4/3 will take almost exactly 2x the focal length and 2 stops more aperture in the FX D700 to get "the same picture" including everything (ie DoF and FoV). And to get the same shutterspeed you need to be 2 stops higher in ISO on the FX. And then the pictures are virtually indistinguishable - the same noise, the same colour resolution, everything. But depending on what aperture the 4/3 started from, my D700 will be A LOT sharper, or just a bit sharper.

The DX behaves exactly the same, but with one stop difference in stead of two. And yes, the difference is important - even considering price and weight. FX will give me one stop shorter DoF or one stop more light (those are the same thing when FoV is kept constant) - and with some of my lenses they allow me to be at F/4 in stead of F/2.8 when taking a picture - which does worlds of difference to the detail rendering and sharpness. Or they allow me to use TWICE as much light by staying at F/2.8 and thereby lowering the noise by half a stop. What's left is for the buyer to decide if this is worth the price, and the carrying.

Jun 18, 2009 at 09:18 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #3 · d300 to d700 or not???


ISO, shutter speed and f-stop are all transformable to linear scales. Since digital is less lossy as you say, it is more linear and true to the ISO scale. In film there would be adjustments due to non-linearity. This was especially true with long exposures. Dude, go back to your padded cell.

Jun 18, 2009 at 11:42 AM
Kerry Pierce
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p.4 #4 · d300 to d700 or not???


theSuede wrote:
Well, exposures are all-important as you say.


Yes.


I HAVE done the tests, believe me. 4/3 will take almost exactly 2x the focal length and 2 stops more aperture in the FX D700 to get "the same picture" including everything (ie DoF and FoV). And to get the same shutterspeed you need to be 2 stops higher in ISO on the FX.


2 stops difference in ISO are 2 stops difference in exposure. The exposures are not "the same".

People like to say that the d700 has 1.5 to 2 stops better ISO performance than the d300. As a practical matter, that's only true if you don't care about maintaining DOF the same with both cameras. As you say, you need to stop down the FX camera to achieve the same DOF of the DX camera, which increases ISO to maintain exposure parameters, so you lose at least a stop of the ISO that you pay for with the FX camera.

OTOH, if you desire more shallow DOF or you're stopping down a lens only to hit the sweet spot, then the d700 maintains the 1.5 to 2 stops advantage.



Jun 18, 2009 at 03:42 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #5 · d300 to d700 or not???


Suede,

Actually, I take back the padded cell comment (for now ). But I seriously think you need to read a decent book on how to set exposure manually and learn to understand it. "Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson is an excellent starting point.

Regards,
Andre



Jun 18, 2009 at 04:26 PM
Makten
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p.4 #6 · d300 to d700 or not???


Edit: Oops, double. Look below.

Edited on Jun 18, 2009 at 04:47 PM · View previous versions


Jun 18, 2009 at 04:44 PM
Makten
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p.4 #7 · d300 to d700 or not???


Kerry Pierce wrote:
OTOH, if you desire more shallow DOF or you're stopping down a lens only to hit the sweet spot, then the d700 maintains the 1.5 to 2 stops advantage.


And who on earth would not understand how very important that is for image quality?

Andre Labonte wrote:
Suede,

Actually, I take back the padded cell comment (for now ). But I seriously think you need to read a decent book on how to set exposure manually and learn to understand it. "Understanding Exposure" by Bryan Peterson is an excellent starting point.


Andre, mr Suede is one of the few here that really knows what's he's talking about. The ISO speed is only telling you about exposure per area, which is irrelevant when comparing different sensor sizes. As said a thousand times. That's why ISO 1600 on FF is equal to ISO 400 on 4:3.


Jun 18, 2009 at 04:46 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #8 · d300 to d700 or not???


If the manufacturer follows the ISO standards put forth by the ISO organization,there should be no differences regardless of digital format.

http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=37777

Jun 18, 2009 at 08:14 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.4 #9 · d300 to d700 or not???


Makten wrote:
Kerry Pierce wrote:
OTOH, if you desire more shallow DOF or you're stopping down a lens only to hit the sweet spot, then the d700 maintains the 1.5 to 2 stops advantage.


And who on earth would not understand how very important that is for image quality?


Dunno, but I'd guess that there are more than a few. With today's lenses, I'm not often concerned about stopping down to the sweet spot. I usually stop down because I want more DOF.


Andre, mr Suede is one of the few here that really knows what's he's talking about. The ISO speed is only telling you about exposure per area, which is irrelevant when comparing different sensor sizes


What is exposure per area and why should a photographer care about it? If you have a very large sheet of ISO 100 film, the exposure of a given scene would be the same regardless as to the size of the format that it is cut to fit, from a view camera down to a minox.

The same applies to a digital sensor. A hand held light meter doesn't need to have different settings for different format sizes.


As said a thousand times. That's why ISO 1600 on FF is equal to ISO 400 on 4:3.


It may be said thousands of times, but that doesn't make it correct. The difference is technology, not sensor size. Try comparing a kodak slr/n to a d300, for example.



Jun 18, 2009 at 08:24 PM
MajinHurricane
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p.4 #10 · d300 to d700 or not???


Makten wrote:
TonyBeach wrote:
Well, you can use all the fast FX lenses on DX format (but not the other way around). It changes the AOV, but then there are some DX equivalents such as the Nikkor 35/1.8 DX, Sigma 30/1.4, and the Voigtlander Nokton 58/1.4.


Yes, but they aren't "fast" compared to their FX competitors, since you lose 1.2 stops of light and DOF when using the same aperture on a 1.5x shorter focal length.

DX -> FX:
35/1.8 -> 52,5/2.7
30/1.4 -> 45/2.1
58/1.4 -> 87/2.1


This is the reason I'm going FX.

Jun 18, 2009 at 10:39 PM
theSuede
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p.4 #11 · d300 to d700 or not???


Bryan's book is good, easy to read and full of easy to understand "basic rules". I suggest YOU re-read and try to understand what the texts in it really mean. :-) The physics behind the easy rules though, is totally different when comparing digital/film.

Where you go totally off the mark is where you think that scaling digital pixel areas is the same as scaling film - they're related, but not entirely the same. Welcome to the 21st century. The ONLY things that gets "better" with larger film-backs is resolution and lens-strain. With digital, if you insist on using an analog comparison, using a 2x size sensor is the same as using a 2x size film - with 2x size grains that can take 4x the amount of light and still stay in the linear film exposure region.

A D700 takes ~60ke to saturate at base ISO. A D300 takes ~20ke (this should be 60/2.25=27ke if the sensors scaled perfectly, and this means that the D300 has more losses than the D700). This means:
At ISO200, same scene at daytime, the D700 takes in 3x more light to get the "same" result. 3x more light means √3=1.67 times less noise - AT THE LOWEST ISO! They have approximately the same read-noise, and this doesn't even matter until 10stops below blown highlight - so it's of little importance here at base ISO. The lens mounted on the D700 can have a MTF that's 33% lower than the D300 and still be just as sharp. So, if you want a cleaner picture, stay at the same ISO and increase exposure time, if you want the same shutterspeed - increase ISO, you won't get more noiser than the DX picture anyway.

The SLR/n is a really stupid example to be blunt - that is a generation 2 sensor. We're currently at generation 4 - and will probably stay here until backlit sensors are a reality in these sensor sizes. It's kind of like comparing a '1975 formula 1 car with a '2009 formula Ford car - the newer will be faster. But by today's standards the FFord is at least two rungs down from a modern F1 car, and A LOT slower.

I prefer to see the comparison as "when I don't need stupid amounts of DoF, I get sharper pictures with less noise and hence better, cleaner colours with FX". If what you shoot is dependent on a certain minimum DoF, then by all means go DX, 4/3 or even compact. In that case you loose nothing (and pay for & carry less equipment!).

Jun 19, 2009 at 12:29 AM
Kerry Pierce
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p.4 #12 · d300 to d700 or not???


theSuede wrote:

Where you go totally off the mark is where you think that scaling digital pixel areas is the same as scaling film


Who said anything about scaling? We were and are talking about exposure parameters. ISO 100 is the same across formats. True or not?


The SLR/n is a really stupid example to be blunt - that is a generation 2 sensor. We're currently at generation 4


Blunt is fine, in fact, I prefer blunt. I think it's quite humorous that you say the slr/n is a stupid example and then turn around and say essentially the same thing that I said. The difference of generation 2 and generation 4 is technological advances, right? Isn't that the reason that the kodak FX sensor sucks in comparison to the latest DX sensor?





Jun 19, 2009 at 12:57 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #13 · d300 to d700 or not???


OK, I'm reissuing the padded cell coment. Suede, get back into your padded cell!

Jun 19, 2009 at 01:07 AM
 



Andre Labonte
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p.4 #14 · d300 to d700 or not???


Hey Kerry, I think we should let Suede stew ... when I used to teach optics at the university there were always morons who would argue with me, the book, or anyone else for that matter.

Jun 19, 2009 at 01:13 AM
abam
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p.4 #15 · d300 to d700 or not???


"Did all inside shots with the D700 and the Nikon 24-70 f2.8"

you dog, you. i'd love to have this setup.

Jun 19, 2009 at 01:24 AM
theSuede
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p.4 #16 · d300 to d700 or not???


This is getting really stupid, and I'm getting more and more convinced that you actually understand that what you're saying is totally moronic, and you're doing it just for arguments sake.

Same exposure per mm2, but MORE AREA equals less noise and sharper picture when looked at over an entire picture frame. Or more resolution with the same grain if you prefer film. Both of the examples are due to "less magnification" if you prefer that choice of words. Given a bigger sensor/bigger film format you can CHOOSE whether you want to use the higher overall system light throughput (by not stopping down) or not. This is physically not possible with smaller formats, you cannot increase the light throughput more than what the lens is physically capable of.

ISO100 is the same sensitivity per area in all formats, if the manufacturer has labeled it's product correctly. Very true.
But that's not all that that impacts "picture quality", is it now? If so, then all landscaping/architectural work should be shot with compacts (6x8mm sensors) for maximum DoF. Well, I mean, the "exposure" is EXACTLY the same - it's just the amount of light (sensor area!) that differs - and that's not important if your arguments were correct.

Please give me an example of two current cameras, one DX and one FX. Any example shots I've provided as comparisons to prove the arguments you use wrong has been rejected earlier as being taken at "wrong time of day", or as "Oly uses worse sensors", or "that picture doesn't show DoF clearly enough" or whatever argument you feel like using at the time.

You talk, now show. Or just admit to spreading lies.

Jun 19, 2009 at 01:39 AM
theSuede
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p.4 #17 · d300 to d700 or not???


My guess is that my education is higher than yours, Andre, so that's not going to work as an argument.... Optics is one small department of physics, and has very little to do with this subject - what's your point?

And could you PLEASE show us something else than 8-year old FX-cameras if you're going to show something? I specifically ask for "same generation" camera comparisons.

Jun 19, 2009 at 01:46 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #18 · d300 to d700 or not???


Your education is higher than mine? I have a PhD in physics.

I'm just tired of arguing with people and trying to explain things to them. You are no different. Good bye!

Jun 19, 2009 at 01:59 AM
JHerr
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p.4 #19 · d300 to d700 or not???


Andre Labonte wrote:
Your education is higher than main? I have a PhD in physics.

I'm just tired of arguing with people and trying to explain things to them. You are no different. Good bye!


I have a PH.D in shmoozin da ladies! But you don't see me throwing that around now do ya! Ha, just kidding

I think that this thread needs to be resolved. I think that the argument here is worthy of a test! Someone should test it and give hard evidence, and make another thread that shows proof and answers the question for everyone.

Unless there is already a thread like that? But I guess if there was, we wouldn't be having this argument.

So is anyone willing to test it up and give us some real results, because I am really curious as to the answer!

Jun 19, 2009 at 02:05 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #20 · d300 to d700 or not???


J,

The answer is in the link that I gave. ISO is a standard with specific methods for testing and determination. It is essentially the native sensitivity of the sensor times the gain used. This is how digital is able to change ISO settings, by changing the gain. Base ISO is when the gain = 1. So, ISO 200 is ISO 200 regardless of the digital format, but is set to measurements on 18% grey +-1/3 stop and assumes sRBG. Now here is the kicker, the ISO spec determines what the SOS rating (base ISO) is, but manufacturers may use whatever EI they want and are not required to use the REI (recommended exposure index), thus claim that their camera is at ISO3200 when indeed it is at ISO1600. Stupid if you ask me. This is something that is tested to death. If two cameras are tested to the same standard using the same method and are rated to the REI, then ISO 200 is ISO 200, 400 is 400, etc. Company to company there may be differences due to a different choice of where to set the index, but most companies use the REI. The result is that most cameras using the REI are the same to within about +-1/2 stop.

The REI is set to follow the film scale for ISO, but due to linearity differences, the match is not perfect.

Cheers,
Andre


Jun 19, 2009 at 02:24 AM
TonyBeach
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p.4 #21 · d300 to d700 or not???


TonyBeach wrote:
Well, you can use all the fast FX lenses on DX format (but not the other way around). It changes the AOV, but then there are some DX equivalents such as the Nikkor 35/1.8 DX, Sigma 30/1.4, and the Voigtlander Nokton 58/1.4.


Makten wrote:
Yes, but they aren't "fast" compared to their FX competitors, since you lose 1.2 stops of light and DOF when using the same aperture on a 1.5x shorter focal length.

DX -> FX:
35/1.8 -> 52,5/2.7
30/1.4 -> 45/2.1
58/1.4 -> 87/2.1


MajinHurricane wrote:
This is the reason I'm going FX.


Well f/2 on DX format is certainly shallow enough for me and actually more than I would like (although the background blur is nice as you open up a lens).

Here is f/4 at 116mm:


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Here is f/3.5 at 140mm:


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Kerry Pierce wrote:
OTOH, if you desire more shallow DOF or you're stopping down a lens only to hit the sweet spot, then the d700 maintains the 1.5 to 2 stops advantage.


...and the "sweet spot" doesn't change when you want to use a larger image circle for a larger format?

theSuede wrote:
The lens mounted on the D700 can have a MTF that's 33% lower than the D300 and still be just as sharp. So, if you want a cleaner picture, stay at the same ISO and increase exposure time, if you want the same shutterspeed - increase ISO, you won't get more noiser than the DX picture anyway.

I prefer to see the comparison as "when I don't need stupid amounts of DoF, I get sharper pictures with less noise and hence better, cleaner colours with FX". If what you shoot is dependent on a certain minimum DoF, then by all means go DX, 4/3 or even compact. In that case you loose nothing (and pay for & carry less equipment!).


Of course, for my purposes I want that extra MTF when I get a "D700x." The other consideration though that I alluded to in my response to Kerry is that edge performance of the lens also has to be taken into consideration -- you may have to stop down an extra stop to get those two format's image circles even.

JHerr wrote:
I think that this thread needs to be resolved. I think that the argument here is worthy of a test! Someone should test it and give hard evidence, and make another thread that shows proof and answers the question for everyone.


As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. For my part, I'm enjoying my recently acquired Nikkor 10.5/2.8 fisheye very much:


This image is copyrighted by the owner




It works great on my IR converted D200 too:


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Edited on Jun 19, 2009 at 06:51 AM · View previous versions


Jun 19, 2009 at 02:59 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.4 #22 · d300 to d700 or not???


Tony, No no no, that's practical photography!

Beautiful shots by the way.


Too bad you shot them on DX for the IQ is obviously inferior to what you would have gotten had you used and FX camera.

Jun 19, 2009 at 03:21 AM
theSuede
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p.4 #23 · d300 to d700 or not???


Andre: Wrong on most accounts except for the direct quotes, actually.

Base ISO is chosen to be located just above where the sensor fills the well with charges, without charge bleeding or other sensor faults. This may be at ISO 16, ISO 72 or ISO 160, that doesn't matter. It has NOTHING to do with amplification "1". Please define amplification "1"! What do you mean? 1e>1ADU? That's called "unity gain" by some people, and is usually higher, around ISO500 on FX cameras... It seems as if you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. ISO100 as defined by the (one of three) definitions of ISO in digital cameras that you just reiterated will result in VERY different amplifications depending on variations in sensor size. "Amplification" in these circumstances is usually defined as the ratio of how many electron charges it takes to fill the raw to the amount of levels available (IE how many collected/converted charges/electrons it takes to max out the AD-conversion stage).

Small sensor needs lots of amplification to make "ISO100" setting correct (few electrons > full raw-value).
Large sensor collect more "photons" and need a comparably small amount of amplification to make "ISO100" setting correct (many electrons > full raw-value).

You MIGHT universally call it amplification "1" if you set the maximum linear storage capacity of the C in the sensor well to "1" and say that the maximum raw-value is "1" - then the amplification is "1". But this is very unlikely, and to tell the truth very impractical for almost all purposes. Most people that have a clue about what they're talking about would say that amplification is usually around 4e/ADU at base ISO for an FX-camera. Bigger sensors almost always have a higher figure of merit here, and that means less shot noise per pixel per ISO.

I do know the ISO-spec, I've read it, and know it well. The OTHER choices in how to define ISO is also a bit off, choosing to do it by S/N ratios or purely by FWC and quantum efficiency merit is also a bit misguiding, so I guess we're stuck in the middle of something we don't really know how to define in a way that is "right" for all scenarios.

Small sensors are to affected by shot noise to make the S/N ISO definition really valid for them (they wouldn't get over ISO400!), they are best characterized by the FWC/QE definition - they're almost always tuned to expose as high as they can to get away from their inherent noise.

Large sensors are to limited by the FWC/QE definition, as their maximum charge per pixel is usually a lot higher (which also by the same reasons excludes the "ISO by S/N" definition - it would constantly underexpose!), so the REI definition seems to be the best way we know of so far. Most companies use the DC-004 definition, and not the ISO, by the way.

And if you cant see the reasons why the same ISO gives different amounts of noise (as integrated over a complete picture frame) when you vary the sensor area, I do in all honesty think you should be very careful with throwing that PhD around. Me, with a meager double masters did that connection a long time ago.

The D300 has a base amplification of ~1 (0.8e per bitlevel, 14-bit res), the D700 has an amplification of ~0.25 (4e per bitlevel) - and they're both pretty correctly stated as "ISO200", base ISO. Different amplifications - same ISO! A compact takes even more amplification to get to ISO200, ~10 (1e gives 10 bitlevels, 14-bit res) for a correct ISO200 rating.

Shot noise, which is a variety of the uncertainty principle built into the wave-theory that governs measurement of light-energy, is always equal to the square of e, which gives that noise on a certain ISO varies with the amplification needed to get that ISO, and that varies with sensor (and pixel) size. Then the electronics add a very small amount of noise (small, on low ISOs at least) but that another part of the story.

Sorry to rain on this parade, but this is the reality.

Jun 19, 2009 at 03:44 AM
Josiah Jones
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p.4 #24 · d300 to d700 or not???


abam wrote:
"Did all inside shots with the D700 and the Nikon 24-70 f2.8"

you dog, you. i'd love to have this setup.


I cannot begin to tell you how happy I am with these two pieces of camera equipment.

By the way, all this other stuff these guys are punching back and forth in this thread is amazing information but way beyond my pituful comprehension......I am indeed impressed with the knowledge of folks who frequent this forum.

Josiah

Jun 19, 2009 at 04:55 AM
MajinHurricane
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p.4 #25 · d300 to d700 or not???


This thread would be full of ownage if we find out suade designs sensors

Jun 19, 2009 at 06:47 AM




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