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Archive 2009 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

HorseRacing
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p.2 #1 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

As a working fulltime pro I will comment on parents who shoot nice equipment, I usually am shooting a couple of bodies 1dMKIII with a 300 2.8 or a 70-200 or 400 2.8, I have run across some parents that have equal equipment and if I see someone I do ask them if they are shooting their kids and if they say yes I leave it at that. If I lose a few sales its not that big of deal, I started shooting my kids 12 years ago but never shot anyone elses kids, I have exclusive contracts with leagues and tournaments and would not nor have not told a parent not to take a picture and james I would not worry about taking your equipment ith you. the way most contracts are written it protects us from competing against other people who are there to take and sell pictures and the vast majority of parents don't, i'm sure some take team shots but I can't worry about one or two teams when I am covering on average over 100. Take the camera and have fun and get some great shots

Jun 05, 2009 at 11:59 AM

MichaelKirk
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p.2 #2 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

I think the consensus is if you are only taking photos of your child and not selling any photos and not shooting from where you are not supposed to be - you’re good to go. Once you start selling photos or are taking photos from areas off limits to parents (and not the photog on site) - you’re encroaching and have overstepped the "parental" bounds.

Michael

james.d wrote:
Mikekel, you stated - I take many photos of my son's games, I am friends with many of the parents who like the shots and if I see a pro at a game taking photos I put the camera away, actually if it's covered I don't bring the camera and I do buy their shots, encourage others to buy their shots.

I am going to my son's soccer tournament this weekend and I am pretty sure they have a hired photographer shooting the tournament. I plan on taking my D300 and 300 F/2.8 and capture some great photos of my son. I am not shooting to sell any photos, just capture alot of my son. I don't feel this is taking away from the pro photographer, so I don't feel the need to leave my gear in the car. Am I wrong here?

Jun 05, 2009 at 12:03 PM

mikekel
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p.2 #3 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Take the camera and get great photos of your son. Usually when we hit tournaments I prefer to watch.

Jun 05, 2009 at 02:33 PM

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p.2 #4 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

I was actually just asked yesterday to come to a local baseball game tonight and take action shots of the kids on the team. It never occurred to me there might be a league photographer ... the parents never mentioned one. Hmmmm. I'm really glad I ran across this thread, because now I'll have the knowledge to at least ask before I get started.

Thanks to the OP for bringing this up, and to all who responded.
Sincerely, a lurker who didn't even realize she was about to make a potential mistake.

Jun 05, 2009 at 02:43 PM

james.d
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p.2 #5 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

dmwierz, I think my post was confusing. I was just stating what Mikekel had said in his post and then added my question, which was - Basically I wanted to know the feelings of a Pro Photographer who is at the soccer tournament but sees me shooting photos of MY son. I may take a couple of the other kids as I did last season and then made a dvd of photos and music to give to the parents at the end of the season. I am not charging anyone and not giving prints away. If I saw the photos that the Pro took and liked them, I would support him by purchasing some. I guess the proper thing to do would let the Pro know that I am only shooting my son so he knows my intention is not to take away his business.
Sorry for the confusion

Jun 05, 2009 at 03:13 PM

mikekel
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p.2 #6 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

The secondary issue is how often a league photographer shows up and what kind of photos they take when they are there. I prefer action photos at points in a game more than a photo of my son with a hockey stick in his hands.

It's really a good idea to get involved with leagues and help them understand what kind of photos you are interested in and helping them choose a good company if they are putting someone under contract. The right company makes a world of difference.

Jun 05, 2009 at 03:28 PM

SWRToad
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p.2 #7 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

please delete

Edited on Jun 05, 2009 at 03:48 PM · View previous versions

Jun 05, 2009 at 03:43 PM

SWRToad
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p.2 #8 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

please delete

Edited on Jun 05, 2009 at 03:49 PM · View previous versions

Jun 05, 2009 at 03:47 PM

SWRToad
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p.2 #9 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

I agree with much that has been said here, but this is a very touchy topic, and one I would like to comment on. I as well have shot both as a contracted event photographer and as a sideline parent. In my eyes, it can be very simple, do your homework, obtain approval, and honor any contracts that may be in place.

In addition, to give away photos, (as mentioned earlier) regardless of your skills and/or photography status is what hurts us all as photographers, especially with youth sports where most work without a contract and struggle to sell images. IMO, there is a huge difference in just taking some tournament/event photos as a parent, versus showing up at a event with the intent to sell photos at and/or after the event. Regardless of what sport or event you are shooting, one should obtain approval before they even attempt to sell any photos (even after the event on-line). In the event that there is a contracted or exclusive photographer hired, the answer should be sorry NO deal...............

Now with that being said, if there is no FORMAL contracted photographer and you have obtained permission to be there shooting, or are in attendance as a parent, club or league photographer, please use common sense, act as a professional, and be courteous to others in attendance. I don't get bothered often, but I can tell you that I always do my homework up-front, understand photography wise who is in attendance, and act accordingly when a contract is in place. A couple weekends ago, I was at a regional VB tournament as a club photographer and parent, and was rudely approached by a on-site VB photographer. I knew that they did NOT have a formal contract but was still courteous, did not hand out any business cards when approached by parents. I politely told the VB photographer, Im a club photographer and parent, and its none of there business who or what I am shooting. I even gave them one of my business cards thinking that they may contact me so I could tell them how horribly wrong their approach was to folks in attendance with camera's.

lastly, I like this point made by Scott. (well said). I always try to treat people as I want to be treated myself.

I should add, that I still go out and shoot my own kids’ sports and school activities. And I enjoy it. When I do that, I shoot what I want, when I want and if someone asks me about photos, I kindly give them a card and tell them I would be glad to visit with them about how to get quality images of their kid(s). IMO, being a professional photographer doesn’t preclude one from also being a dad.

Jun 05, 2009 at 03:47 PM

MichaelKirk
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p.2 #10 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

and I'll add on to this a bit...the part about being a parent and giving away photos for Free.

I'm on all sides of the spectrum:

I'm a parent with three children, 2 are old enough to play sports and both my daughters are in Travel soccer programs.
I'm a coach as well and Asst coach my one daughters GU9 Travel A team
I'm a photographer as well - PT at that, shoot some, but not a lot of events (mainly cycling)

....so I have "all the gear" and "look" the professional (multible bodies, 300 f/2.8, etc) even when I'm a parent showing up to watch my older daughers games and shooting pictures of my kids for our basement wall. Even the team I coach for, I'll usually take one or two games a year during a multi game tournament to photograph my child (and team) just so she doesn't keep asking "why don't you take pictures of me playing". I have permission from the clubs as well as the parents (I ask ahead of time incase a parent doesn't want pictures posted on my website as well to make sure there was not a club photog already in place.)

What I do is offer the pictures at a discount to the other team parents which is usually a 25% discount. No one complains about not receiveing Free photos - doesn't really matter much to me because over the last two seasons I've only had 2 or 3 parents actually buy photos from me - I'm scratchhing my head on this one

I'm taking photos better than anything they have ever seen or will ever get of their child and still no one orders

Go figure.

My take is if you are showing up with an inexpensive DLSR and kit lens taking pictures of your kid and team and want to give the images away for free to the parents - have at it. But if your on this board, you probably have a better than basic camera body and lens and have "aspirations" to be more than a parent shooting your child at a game - you now have most likely crossed over that threshold of being just a parent at a game giving away free "snaps" to that wanting to start making a buck Photog and think giving away free photos is a way to get your foot in the door - don't go there!

Michael

SWRToad wrote:
I agree with much that has been said here, but this is a very touchy topic, and one I would like to comment on. I as well have shot both as a contracted event photographer and as a sideline parent. In my eyes, it can be very simple, do your homework, obtain approval, and honor any contracts that may be in place.

In addition, to give away photos, (as mentioned earlier) regardless of your skills and/or photography status is what hurts us all as photographers, especially with youth sports where most work without a contract and struggle to sell images. IMO, there is a huge difference in just taking some tournament/event photos as a parent, versus showing up at a event with the intent to sell photos at and/or after the event. Regardless of what sport or event you are shooting, one should obtain approval before they even attempt to sell any photos (even after the event on-line). In the event that there is a contracted or exclusive photographer hired, the answer should be sorry NO deal...............

Now with that being said, if there is no FORMAL contracted photographer and you have obtained permission to be there shooting, or are in attendance as a parent, club or league photographer, please use common sense, act as a professional, and be courteous to others in attendance. I don't get bothered often, but I can tell you that I always do my homework up-front, understand photography wise who is in attendance, and act accordingly when a contract is in place. A couple weekends ago, I was at a regional VB tournament as a club photographer and parent, and was rudely approached by a on-site VB photographer. I knew that they did NOT have a formal contract but was still courteous, did not hand out any business cards when approached by parents. I politely told the VB photographer, Im a club photographer and parent, and its none of there business who or what I am shooting. I even gave them one of my business cards thinking that they may contact me so I could tell them how horribly wrong their approach was to folks in attendance with camera's.

lastly, I like this point made by Scott. (well said). I always try to treat people as I want to be treated myself.

I should add, that I still go out and shoot my own kids’ sports and school activities. And I enjoy it. When I do that, I shoot what I want, when I want and if someone asks me about photos, I kindly give them a card and tell them I would be glad to visit with them about how to get quality images of their kid(s). IMO, being a professional photographer doesn’t preclude one from also being a dad.

Jun 05, 2009 at 04:08 PM

Tony Masone
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p.2 #11 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Chip, I made the same mistake when I first started out, once free, they will never buy. Its been 10 yrs later for me at the same school with my kids, and I do not offer unless approached, but with other schools that I shoot, no problem in purchasing.

Paul and Dennis's advice is right on. Learn from what you did and don't do it again. Like someone said in one of the posts that most on this board frown from giving out free items, it only makes them want more for free. How True!

Tony

Jul 01, 2009 at 02:04 AM

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p.2 #12 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Paul's response is one I want to save for future threads and posts in cyberspace. It was very well put w/o being too harsh like I probably would have been. It was PERFECT!

Jul 01, 2009 at 04:22 AM

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p.2 #13 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Take pictures of your kid and enjoy him!!!!!! I photograph as many of my daughters HS softball games as possible (ones I can attend). I do it for her and I and for the memories that the images will provide years down the road. Am I a good enough photographer to sell photos of the other players on her team to their parents; yes I am! Do I, once in a great while. And, only when I have an outstanding image of that player. I will show it to the parent(s) and let them know it is for sale if they would like it. If not I use it in my portfolio.

Why, you ask? Because it is not about the money. It is about capturing images of my daughter that we can share for many, many years to come. No amount of money can replace the images that I get of my daughter. Stop giving away work, stop worrying about the other parents wanting free pictures and simply photograph your son for the pure pleasure that it provides. Good luck and enjoy

Jul 03, 2009 at 12:43 AM

John Korduner
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p.2 #14 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

It may not be worth the headache. I recently had my credentials from LSU revoked, and I'm confident it was because some old "pro" felt threatened, b*&T$ched, and then fabricated a story that I was breaking copyright/trademark laws.

Being an attorney, I let Collegiate Images know what I thought about the allegations...But, ultimately, I still lost the opportunity to be there for the regionals, and am still fighting to get my creds back for the upcoming season.

The moral of the story is...If you move into someone else's territory, you'd better be willing to fight for it.

Jul 03, 2009 at 07:19 AM

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p.2 #15 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Fireman Rich wrote:
Stop giving away work, stop worrying about the other parents wanting free pictures and simply photograph your son for the pure pleasure that it provides. Good luck and enjoy

...and be thinking about what you want to do with your photographic skills and equipment when your kids eventually grow up and move away. That's the boat I'm in now....kids married and gone, so what do I do with all this "stuff" I've accumulated over the years while taking pics of them at sporting events? Be thinking now about where you want this to go in the long run and make it sustainable.

Jul 03, 2009 at 01:38 PM

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p.2 #16 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

being a 69 year aged grandpa I have shot all our grandkids games for the last five+ years,, the first year I only covered my grandkids and never saw anything more than a P&S camera at the games,, discussion with the coaches confirmed they do not have anyone covering their games or has anyone ever asked,,

so the second year I figured I would include the other team players,, I post the keepers on Picasa and let all the families view them and provided each family a DVD at the season end,, I have never considered myself a pro photographer, have never been paid for any of my photographs and never attempted to make a living with my cameras,,

I thought (briefly) about charging but retired very comfortably when I was 61 and certainly do not need the income,, if there every was a pro shooting any of our games then I would only be covering my grandkids and so inform the parents,,

I have had a great life and many a friend and figure this is one way of returning something I can do without trying to make a another nickle,,

Derry

Edited on Jul 03, 2009 at 11:12 PM · View previous versions

Jul 03, 2009 at 08:23 PM

crteach
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p.2 #17 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Hmmmm...guess I wasn't thinking about grandkids down the road! Maybe I need to keep getting more camera gear!!

Jul 03, 2009 at 09:57 PM

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p.2 #18 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Chip:

I wouldn't do anything until you check with the youth sports board. If possible, attend a meeting and tell them what your plans are

They may refer you to the official photographer to get his permission or it may not even be an issue.

I have several photo contracts with youth sports leagues, events, tournaments and high schools and it has never bothered me that parents with cameras take photos of their children as long as they follow the rules.

The athletic directors, event organizers, tournament officials and youth board members that I deal with keep very tight control of who they issue credentials to or allow on the field or close to the playing area or who can post images on a website.

The main reason to keep others away from the field of play is safety for the contestants, controlling crowds along the sidelines and baselines, insurance and not to interfere with the game by getting in the way, talking to players or complaining to officials....not to protect a photographer's business interests.

Much success,

Lee Woolery
Speedshot Photo

Jul 04, 2009 at 02:52 AM

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p.2 #19 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

SWRToad wrote:
I like this point made by Scott. (well said). I always try to treat people as I want to be treated myself.

Words to live by .. but easier said than done by some people.

Jul 04, 2009 at 11:07 AM

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p.2 #20 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Parents are cheap. Most of them have no idea what time and talent it takes to produce quality sports photos. Most don't care. You have further eroded that by giving them away for several years. I would expect that not only will they not buy much they will be offended that you are even asking for money.

It's not fair, but that's the way it goes. It's brutal to sell to parents these days.

And be VERY aware, anything, no matter how crappy resolution, no matter how watermarked you make it, will be printed out from an online site, placed on myspace, and otherwise abused.

Unless you are in a very big market, there will not be enough money in this to even pay for gear, much less time, insurance (you will be insured if you're charging money, right?), and taxes (you will be paying taxes, right?).

Jul 04, 2009 at 01:53 PM

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p.2 #21 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Wow... I feel like the salmon swimming upstream... this post is going to be REAL unpopular!

In the interest of full disclosure I am a father of two teenage sons, both of whom played football and basketball. In an effort to get a few shots of my boys I started with an Olympus P&S I already had and shot a few pictures. That evolved into a Canon 30D which then evolved into a 1Dmk3... a classic case of the slippery slope of incrementalism!

I started by putting photos on Flickr (here) so that my boys and family could enjoy them. Of coursed that evolved into shots of other kids and sharing them with the team.

One thing led to another and I was asked by all the teams and coaches to shoot from the sidelines and courtside. As my skills and equipment improved so did the shots.

When I could not keep up with the demand for prints from other parents that evolved into a SmugMug account about three months ago (here). Before Smugmug I made roughly $1500 - Half of it paid by the school booster club for images used in school publications and activities and the other half from parents. But I also gave LOTS of photos away. Every computer in the school football department has my images all over it!

Only in the last 10 months have I transitioned from giving away photos to selling them.

Since I DO sell them and many of you say I am a pro, then here is this pro's opinion.

If a school, club team, or league has a pro hired to shoot you should stay out of his way. HOWEVER, that does not preclude you from taking photos of your son and his teamates. If a league, school, or school district official does not come up to you and specifically tell you NOT to take pictures then you have no legal or moral obligation not to shoot.

You DO NOT need to approach the hired pro and ask permission. Why would you when you have no idea what his arrangement is? Whatever it is it doesn't matter. If his contract says he is the exclusive shooter then it is up to the league to tell you not to shoot. If the hired pro tells you not to that means nothing. If a League Official tells you that you cannot shoot then you must stop, and it is up to you to challenge it or move your kid.

Those who say if a pro has a contract then you have no right to shoot your own kid - consider this. You live on a street with 12 houses. Eleven of those houses contract with a professional landscaper. You want to do your own landscaping. Are you barred from doing so? I don't think so. Does it matter what the pro landscaper thinks? Not to me.

So you say he has the right to shoot his own kid, but not others or to sell to others? I say - wrong. On so many levels.

The pro is hired to shoot one game per team per season? If a pro shoots one game and shoots even 300 shots of 12 players, assuming that is evenly distributed, that is 25 shots per player. In a 10-game season, assuming the photographer does not miss a moment in the one game he shoots, he has a 10 percent chance of getting the best action shot of the season for one individual. Hardly decent season coverage.

Those of you who have kids as this photographer does - what is he supposed to do - let his kids grow up playing ball and hope that someone else gets a shot of them he can buy?

And on the commercial level - those who say he has to have three licenses and all that. If that is what you want to do then more power to you. Get your dog tags and be the lap dog you want to be. I am tired of begging the government for permission to live my life. I gotta tell ya folks, I want the "regulatory world" to stay out of my way and let me live my life. Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

Before you go crazy, hear me out. If you bake in your home kitchen and sell sweets to a small group of friends, do you want all the licenses and inspections? If you do paintings or make sculptures or make ANY craft that you sell on a small scale, do you want the govt. in your business? If you detail two cars a weekend in your driveway (and don't have any cars there during the week) do you want the city, county, and federal government as your business partner? If you make beer in your basement and trade it to your friend who grows fresh vegetables in her garden.... etc. ad nauseum.

YES - if it is your full time business and you do some decent volume, you make it a legitimate business with all the required licenses and filings. Both my other businesses are C-corps, so I do know something about this.

On this Fourth of July stand up and be a man and a self-sufficient Patriot. The independent craftsman need be beholden to no one except God.

Only an idiot makes hard and fast rules and applies them 100 percent of the time. I am pro photographer now (my third job - I own two other companies and employ people in both) yet I sometimes give away my work. Look at my sites and look at the demographics. We have kids at our school who play sports to stay out of trouble, and who cannot afford to EAT when they need to. If one of those kids comes up to you during a game and wants a photo of his touchdown for his Facebook page (which he has to maintain from the school library computer after school because he does not have one at home) are you going to charge him for it? I don't. Think the hired "pro" is going to give one away? Without the kids you have no shot. without the shots you are not a photographer. Sometimes the right thing to do makes no business sense.

Folks - I am not very good at expressing my opinion in complete thoughts and eloquent words. The OP should shoot his kid, his kid's team, and post his images for sale and not worry about the rest of the world around him (to the extent that he harms no one else). If parents don't want to buy from you dude - they don't have to. You didn't have to spend $4000 on your equipment or spend 2 hours shooting a game or 8 hours post processing images. But you did and if others want the benefit of your labor then it comes with a price tag.

Keep shooting brother! Be humble before the Lord and it will all work out.

David

Jul 05, 2009 at 02:39 PM

Pandacat
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p.2 #22 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Yea!!! David !!!!

Jul 05, 2009 at 04:10 PM

Vince Muehe
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p.2 #23 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

I asked a tournament director if I could shoot their youth softball tournament a few years ago. They advised that there was another photographer there, but I was welcome to take photos.

They notified the other photographer and let them know I was coming.

There was some immediate resistance from the other photographer, until the tournament director explained it to him this way:

"What are the odds you'll both get exactly the same photo? You print your photos and sell them at the tournament. He doesn't print them and sells them online. You have two different types of customers. I'm sure you'll both do fine."

Jul 05, 2009 at 05:09 PM

leewoolery
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p.2 #24 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

dwerther wrote:
Wow... I feel like the salmon swimming upstream... this post is going to be REAL unpopular!

In the interest of full disclosure I am a father of two teenage sons, both of whom played football and basketball. In an effort to get a few shots of my boys I started with an Olympus P&S I already had and shot a few pictures. That evolved into a Canon 30D which then evolved into a 1Dmk3... a classic case of the slippery slope of incrementalism!

I started by putting photos on Flickr (here) so that my boys and family could enjoy them. Of coursed that evolved into shots of other kids and sharing them with the team.

One thing led to another and I was asked by all the teams and coaches to shoot from the sidelines and courtside. As my skills and equipment improved so did the shots.

When I could not keep up with the demand for prints from other parents that evolved into a SmugMug account about three months ago (here). Before Smugmug I made roughly $1500 - Half of it paid by the school booster club for images used in school publications and activities and the other half from parents. But I also gave LOTS of photos away. Every computer in the school football department has my images all over it!

Only in the last 10 months have I transitioned from giving away photos to selling them.

Since I DO sell them and many of you say I am a pro, then here is this pro's opinion.

If a school, club team, or league has a pro hired to shoot you should stay out of his way. HOWEVER, that does not preclude you from taking photos of your son and his teamates. If a league, school, or school district official does not come up to you and specifically tell you NOT to take pictures then you have no legal or moral obligation not to shoot.

You DO NOT need to approach the hired pro and ask permission. Why would you when you have no idea what his arrangement is? Whatever it is it doesn't matter. If his contract says he is the exclusive shooter then it is up to the league to tell you not to shoot. If the hired pro tells you not to that means nothing. If a League Official tells you that you cannot shoot then you must stop, and it is up to you to challenge it or move your kid.

Those who say if a pro has a contract then you have no right to shoot your own kid - consider this. You live on a street with 12 houses. Eleven of those houses contract with a professional landscaper. You want to do your own landscaping. Are you barred from doing so? I don't think so. Does it matter what the pro landscaper thinks? Not to me.

So you say he has the right to shoot his own kid, but not others or to sell to others? I say - wrong. On so many levels.

The pro is hired to shoot one game per team per season? If a pro shoots one game and shoots even 300 shots of 12 players, assuming that is evenly distributed, that is 25 shots per player. In a 10-game season, assuming the photographer does not miss a moment in the one game he shoots, he has a 10 percent chance of getting the best action shot of the season for one individual. Hardly decent season coverage.

Those of you who have kids as this photographer does - what is he supposed to do - let his kids grow up playing ball and hope that someone else gets a shot of them he can buy?

And on the commercial level - those who say he has to have three licenses and all that. If that is what you want to do then more power to you. Get your dog tags and be the lap dog you want to be. I am tired of begging the government for permission to live my life. I gotta tell ya folks, I want the "regulatory world" to stay out of my way and let me live my life. Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

Before you go crazy, hear me out. If you bake in your home kitchen and sell sweets to a small group of friends, do you want all the licenses and inspections? If you do paintings or make sculptures or make ANY craft that you sell on a small scale, do you want the govt. in your business? If you detail two cars a weekend in your driveway (and don't have any cars there during the week) do you want the city, county, and federal government as your business partner? If you make beer in your basement and trade it to your friend who grows fresh vegetables in her garden.... etc. ad nauseum.

YES - if it is your full time business and you do some decent volume, you make it a legitimate business with all the required licenses and filings. Both my other businesses are C-corps, so I do know something about this.

On this Fourth of July stand up and be a man and a self-sufficient Patriot. The independent craftsman need be beholden to no one except God.

Only an idiot makes hard and fast rules and applies them 100 percent of the time. I am pro photographer now (my third job - I own two other companies and employ people in both) yet I sometimes give away my work. Look at my sites and look at the demographics. We have kids at our school who play sports to stay out of trouble, and who cannot afford to EAT when they need to. If one of those kids comes up to you during a game and wants a photo of his touchdown for his Facebook page (which he has to maintain from the school library computer after school because he does not have one at home) are you going to charge him for it? I don't. Think the hired "pro" is going to give one away? Without the kids you have no shot. without the shots you are not a photographer. Sometimes the right thing to do makes no business sense.

Folks - I am not very good at expressing my opinion in complete thoughts and eloquent words. The OP should shoot his kid, his kid's team, and post his images for sale and not worry about the rest of the world around him (to the extent that he harms no one else). If parents don't want to buy from you dude - they don't have to. You didn't have to spend $4000 on your equipment or spend 2 hours shooting a game or 8 hours post processing images. But you did and if others want the benefit of your labor then it comes with a price tag.

Keep shooting brother! Be humble before the Lord and it will all work out.

David

You have some great football photos on your website but, in my opinion, you're giving out some bad advice to aspiring youth sports photographers.

If you're planning on selling or posting images of youth sports, you should first check with the school's athletic director or youth board. That's just common courtesy.

No school or league official or contracted pro photographer will tell a parent that they can't take pictures of their children. Just go by the rules and don't walk onto the field of play without credentials or block other's views while shooting.

If the school or league has an official photographer and you want to cut into their business by selling images, be prepared for some potential trouble from that professional. Also...the school or league may have an arrangement for "donated" services from this pro and could be getting a percentage of sales so why would you jeopardize that agreement.

I'm all for "standing up and being a man" and "self-sufficient patriots" and "beholden to God" but I also respect the rights of others to conduct their business and uphold agreements without interferring.

From my experience, I found it better to ask for permission...in advance...from an AD, event organizer or youth league board about anything to do with photography. It's better to be told "No we are under contract for this season but if you want to make a proposal for next year, we'd be more than happy to talk with you" or "Our league or school has nobody doing this and the parents and staff would very much like this." School and league officials will respect you for going about this the right way.

The other side of that coin is to get a call from a school athletic director or be asked to appear before a youth sports league board to explain why you were shooting , posting and selling photos without knowledge or permission. This kind of stuff can end a career before it gets started.

I've seen parent photographers and would-be pros asked to leave the field of play by being to close to the action without the proper pass, told to remove images from their website, credentials revoked and some "black-balled" for shooting and trying to sell or post images without getting the proper clearance from someone in authority.

Just my opinions and observations,

Lee Woolery
Speedshot Photo

Jul 05, 2009 at 05:36 PM

dwerther
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #25 · Sports Photographer Needs Advice

Lee,

Thanks for your comments. You have some good points. Mainly you have given me the opportunity to clarify that MY COMMENTS REFER TO TEAMS THAT MY OWN KID IS PLAYING ON. If you are not there as a father and team dad but rather only as a pro photographer then the rules of engagement are different.

The OP was in the former situation - not the latter. Thus my reply.

My comments that you quoted were in reference to dealing with various "government" entities as a business, not about dealing with the school officials as a photographer.

I agree with what you say about making sure you obey the rules on the field, and in your dealings with school officials. Yes, there may be benefits to the school coming from the photographer in exchange for his exclusivity or field pass. That is certainly the case for me. The school now has 8 large posters of my photos in the locker room, the rights to which I granted at no charge (in fact I did all the contact with the commercial printer and delivered them - the school paid for it).

By all means you should have a conversation with the school's AD. There you will get the rules of engagement and the field pass.

I was mainly talking about league or non-school organized sports where YOUR KID is playing. I really don't care if there is contracted Pro - the guy that I see at one out of 10-20 games. If I were asked (again, by league officials, not the photographer) not to post or sell for the one game the Pro shot I would certainly respect that. If I were told not to shoot or post or sell my photos for games where there was not a pro photographer on site I would simply ignore them. Let's see what kind of publicity they'll get from kicking me or my kid out of the league.

Shoot well and often and soon you will be the contracted Pro.

If I were "asked to appear before a youth sports league board to explain why you were shooting , posting and selling photos without knowledge or permission" I would tell them that first of all I am more than happy to talk to them on the telephone, as they have no authority to require an appearance.

I would politely explain that I am shooting photos of my child and his teamates engaging in a sporting activity in a public venue, and there was no printed instructions asking me not to.

If they explained that they have a contracted Pro and would I please not post photos I would agree not to SELL photos of any game shot by their pro. I would ask them what web site I can go to in order to buy photos of those games not shot by their pro. My position is my son and his teamates are only going to play at this age once and that I am going to document it. I would not agree not to post and sell shots of the games their guy doesn't shoot. If they give you an ultimatum then you have choices to make.

Now if you are trying to shoot a league or organized sport and you don't have a kid playing, then you play by their rules or you don't play.

One should certainly be civilized and reasonable. But as a photographer just as a person, live by the Latin saying "Ne Illegitimi Carborundum"...

.... (don't let the bastards grind you down).

Jul 05, 2009 at 06:47 PM


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