FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

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Archive 2009 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

ronchappel
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p.9 #1 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Just spent ages looking at those test pics.
The EF is seriously back focused (for f1.2 anyway)! See the reflections on the hood just behind the radiator cowling .Also the rubber strip along that side of the hood

The SSC has the best looking focus point -most of the closest side radiator cowlings look great

The FD is rather back focused also but not as much as the EF.The radiator cap wings are sharpest

The focus issues taken together with the very low shutter speeds and possible sample variation issues make it all abit too imprecise i'm sorry to say.Too much to make any solid conclusions anyway.I'm grateful someone put in such an effort, but to me it doesnt do much more than prove they are similar.
...which,really,isn't such a bad thing!
That said,the SSC does seem to have a slightly different 'look'.When i saw cogitec's images i noticed it too.Perhaps more contrast ans slightly more DOF than the FD version?

Oct 22, 2009 at 01:02 AM

Alf Beharie
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p.9 #2 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

pengland wrote:
I wondered why that one sold for so much. I saw that one and I hate to be the bearer of bad news....but I asked the seller if the fixed rear glass element was in place (it sits in the FD mount assembly) and he told me this:

I see no glass attached the rear mount assembly.
I don't know that it has a glass, I bougth it from a little store in Thailand, then it can not be mount with my camera so I have to sell it.

- kobkik2007

I told him he should edit the listing to let people know this important detail. He kind of covered himself though because the description says he didn't know if anything was missing and he sold it 'as-is" If the rear element is really not there you have yourself a soft-focus lens.

Sorry

Well I finally got the lens today and its worse than I thought as I could'nt find any way to get the Iris to stop down via the aperture dial. The only way I could see a way to get it to work would be to connect the big steel lever that sticks out the back of the lens directly to the aperture dial...But that might mean making a custom made slotted ring for the job. I'm still waiting for an old rear lens element to turn up so I can try finding a way to get it back to the way it should be if only optically.
I cant return the lens so I'm wondering if theres any way to get my money back from paypal.

Oct 22, 2009 at 07:45 PM

Dim.ka_
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p.9 #3 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Alf, any fd lens will not change the aperture with the ring, when it is not connected to fd camera - in any way you need to make the custom made aperture lever to operate with the aperture ring.

Oct 22, 2009 at 08:15 PM

Dim.ka_
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p.9 #4 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

ronchappel wrote:
Just spent ages looking at those test pics.
The EF is seriously back focused (for f1.2 anyway)! See the reflections on the hood just behind the radiator cowling .Also the rubber strip along that side of the hood

The SSC has the best looking focus point -most of the closest side radiator cowlings look great

The FD is rather back focused also but not as much as the EF.The radiator cap wings are sharpest

The focus issues taken together with the very low shutter speeds and possible sample variation issues make it all abit too imprecise i'm sorry to say.Too much to make any solid conclusions anyway.I'm grateful someone put in such an effort, but to me it doesnt do much more than prove they are similar.
...which,really,isn't such a bad thing!
That said,the SSC does seem to have a slightly different 'look'.When i saw cogitec's images i noticed it too.Perhaps more contrast ans slightly more DOF than the FD version?

You are right and i agree with - you have noticed all nuances with focusing, and you get the excactly right feeling about the character of ssc asph.

Oct 22, 2009 at 08:19 PM

m-a-x
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p.9 #5 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Hi Alf,
I made a part from the lid of a tin. It serves as a guide for the lever which you mentioned.
After repetitive adjustment of this part, I epoxied it to the aperture control ring. When I have the aperture control ring placed where it belongs to, the custom-made thing is "wrapped" around the lever. The lever can slide up and down inside this thing. My device enters the lens body about 8 or 10 mm. This depth is required in order to still hold the lever when the lens is at its closest focusing position (which means the lever is furthest away from the aperture ring).
It works perfectly, but it takes a while to have it adjusted and placed.

There is another option to make the lever longer, and to have it guided by a comparatively flat piece of metal which is connected to the aperture ring. But then, the long lever could interfere with the new lens mount.

As for paypal I see little chances. Your seller described vaguely his uncertainties about this lens.
I tried twice to get paypal refund, but in vain. A lens stopping down only half-way although it was described as perfectly working was "not a substantial defect", according to paypal, and therefore not covered by paypal securities.
Paypal security is not worth the paper where it is written on, perhaps except you don't receive an item at all.

EDIT: I just want to clarify that the lever I mean is a thin silver colored and shiny one, not the black thing you can see on pic. 6 or 7 of your auction. You must further dismantle the rear of your lens in order to reach it.

Oct 22, 2009 at 08:24 PM

Alf Beharie
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p.9 #6 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Can you show a picture of the lever you are referring to?...And one showing where to attach it to the aperture dial etc.
I dismantled all of the rear components of the lens just after receiving it until I could'nt go any further as there were literally hundreds of tiny ball bearings going everywhere!

Oct 22, 2009 at 09:20 PM

ronchappel
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p.9 #7 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

There are a few parts in there huh!

I threw so many away

Edited on Oct 23, 2009 at 10:34 AM · View previous versions

Oct 22, 2009 at 11:20 PM

Alf Beharie
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p.9 #8 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

I hate it when someone says they threw a lens away...And throwing many away is even worse!
If you feel the need to throw another away please consider me your dustbin and send it to me

Oct 23, 2009 at 04:54 AM

mMontag
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p.9 #9 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Hey Alf,

Have you resourced Ebay'er - procamerarepair - I didn't see your exact parts but this may be a good source for older lens parts - maybe send them an email - good luck.

Oct 23, 2009 at 06:24 AM

m-a-x
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p.9 #10 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

I will post some pictures of my aperture linkage tonight.

Oct 23, 2009 at 08:52 AM

m-a-x
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p.9 #11 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

I'm back with some pictures.

The numbers on the first one show some particular parts of interest:

1) The original (silver) lever which is operating the aperture, surrounded by my self-made black lever, which is attached to the aperture control ring. The silver thing can slide inside the black thing during focussing.

2) Another metal part, epoxied to the aperture control ring. It provides firm stops at (almost) exactly f/1.2 and f/16. At f/16 it works by "collision" with that part where number 3 is indicated. At f/1.2 it collides with the other one in the 10 o'clock position of the picture.
I did that because the FD85L is very undefined regarding the two extreme stops of the aperture ring. Before I attached that extra part, I could turn the ring nearly 1 mm further than the points where f/1.2 and f/16 are.
Maybe I am a perfectionist, but I like it much better now.

3) The crews which held the FD mount are very unusual. I guess they are "cutting screws", definitely not metric. Since I added distance with the new EF mount, the old srews were not suitable any more. To use normal screws, I bought a small thread-cutter and made a M2 thread inside the existing hole.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

The next picture shows the aperture control ring and my self-made lever.
It has two arms because the second one in an angle adds stiffness - the thing does not bend any more, which makes the aperture operation more responsive.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

And here follows the last picture, showing the rear part, fully assembled.
The lens holder is made from a M42 camera cap (excessively modified) and epoxied to the M42 mount after distance adjustment. The lens rear element is held very firm by the cap's elasticity.
Maybe I will epoxy it as well, but I am still thinking it over.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Of course there are many ways to achieve the required solutions.
I don't claim that my way is the best way.
However, I find it looks quite nice, and it works.
Best regards!

Oct 23, 2009 at 07:35 PM

ronchappel
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p.9 #12 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Alf i didn't throw anything valuable away!Just insignificant things (no need to keep all the bearings when i'll only ever use a few,etc)

Wow MAX that looks like a huge amount of work making it that way!On the other hand it's good to see you made it strong .As you say ,that is necessary for accurate operation of the diaphragm

I was intending to sell mine soon,but if i can overcome my laziness i'll take it apart beforehand and get some pics.
I want to show how i made the same gadget using wire instead.Having done it several ways i'm now sure wire is easiest! ...and it looks very neat too

Oct 25, 2009 at 09:07 AM

m-a-x
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p.9 #13 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Hello Ron,
thank you for your kind words. It was a lot of work, but I was not in a hurry.

I recently could not resist on a bargain and got a 85/1.2 SSC aspherical, which is waiting for conversion and test shots.
I will also sell one of them both, finally. Will take some time, though.

Oct 25, 2009 at 09:24 AM

Alf Beharie
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p.9 #14 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Thanks for the pic and info m-a-x. I am a bit puzzeled as I cant see the big wide metal lever sticking out...Did you cut it off?
I have already snipped mine down to size with a pair of tinsnips so I could try holding the lens against the lensmount on the camera (the lever stuck out too far and got in the way).
What I found was that the Iris is controlled by the big, wide lever and the smaller narrow lever you have attached the aperture dial to does'nt seem to do much, at least on mine. This means that instead of attaching the aperture dial to the smaller lever (#1 in your pic) I planned to attach it to what is left of the big lever...Maybe I should have another look at the little lever.

BTW, I have received a rear element for mine (slightly scratched but still ok) and I'm getting strange results when I test the lens for infinity focus by holding it in front of the camera. I have the concave side towards the camera...I'm assuming thats correct?
I noticed the rear element in yours is very far back on the mounting plate yet the mounting plate on yours seems quite shallow.
I fitted the rear element into the bottom of an SA mounting plate so that its as far back as possible (or as close to the sensor as possible) and to reach infinity focus I had to hold the lens at least 8-10mm way from the lensmount on the camera!
Perhaps I just need to get the element spacing correct...How far apart should the front face of the fixed rear element be from the back face of the rearmost moving element when the lens is set to infinity?

Oct 25, 2009 at 10:02 AM

ronchappel
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p.9 #15 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Hi Alf
Is yours an FD85/1.2L version? If so then yes, the concave side needs to face backwards.
It must protrude 7.4mm* further back than the mount surface of the lens.
At infinity the two rear elements are about 0.5-1mm from touching .sorry-cant rem the exact amount

If its less than 7.4mm you won't be able to achieve infinity and the elements will touch while trying.

If it's more than that it's not such a problem -just don't let the mirror hit it unnecessarily

*This info i got elsewhere.Mine was closer to 7.5mm
My experiments in moving the rear element showed that having this exactly right is not critical for image quality

Oct 25, 2009 at 11:20 AM

kf_tam
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p.9 #16 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Hi Ron,

Mine protrudes only about 6.9mm, and the two rear elements separates only less than 0.1mm at infinity (but more than 0.05mm). I placed a 3M tape (0.05mm) and a 3M Post-it sticky paper (0.1mm) alternatively between the elements to test the minimum separation when I was setting the infinity limit.

Best Regards,
Edward Tam

ronchappel wrote:
Hi Alf
Is yours an FD85/1.2L version? If so then yes, the concave side needs to face backwards.
It must protrude 7.4mm* further back than the mount surface of the lens.
At infinity the two rear elements are about 0.5-1mm from touching .sorry-cant rem the exact amount

If its less than 7.4mm you won't be able to achieve infinity and the elements will touch while trying.

If it's more than that it's not such a problem -just don't let the mirror hit it unnecessarily

*This info i got elsewhere.Mine was closer to 7.5mm
My experiments in moving the rear element showed that having this exactly right is not critical for image quality

Oct 25, 2009 at 12:14 PM

m-a-x
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p.9 #17 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Hello Alf,
I cannot add more information on the rear lens element than Ron already provided.
But regarding the aperture: I removed the whole ring where the big black lever is attached to. I think its purpose is only camera-lens communication within in a FD-body-lens-union.

In case you dismantled the lens body (unscrew the rear from the helix) you would exactly see how the silver lever works: it is attached to a ring wich is thin on one side and becomes continuously thicker. Let's call that shape a "ramp".
Depending on the position of the silver lever, the thicker or thinner part of the ramp is pushing another lever (yes, one more) directly at the aperture chamber. In other words: the ramp-shape which is attached to the silver lever is directly determining the opening and closing characteristic of the iris.
By the way, this last little lever directly at the aperture chamber is spring-loaded, and always pushing towards the ramp, closing the iris.
Now be careful: if you turn the silver lever too far (further than the f/1.2 position) the peak of the ramp is reached and will end abruptly. The spring loaded lever will be suddenly off the ramp in a position where it will not be possible to return onto the ramp, unless you can help with your hands.
That means in that case you had to open the lens body and to unscrew the helix.
Sorry that I cannot send a picture from that, since I don't want to disassemble it that far any more.

Oct 25, 2009 at 06:29 PM

Alf Beharie
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p.9 #18 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

m-a-x wrote:
Hello Alf,
I cannot add more information on the rear lens element than Ron already provided.
But regarding the aperture: I removed the whole ring where the big black lever is attached to. I think its purpose is only camera-lens communication within in a FD-body-lens-union.

Then you must have removed the ring with all the tiny ball bearings on it?

Oct 25, 2009 at 06:44 PM

m-a-x
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p.9 #19 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

Yes, there were many bearings. I removed them all.
However, I don't know if there is also a way to convert the lens by just leave the other ring, like you mentioned before...

Oct 25, 2009 at 07:23 PM

ronchappel
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p.9 #20 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem

kf_tam wrote:
For my 1Ds II, I get the following measurement:
EOS flange to metal top (in front of focus screen): 6.8mm
EOS flange to mirror front (when mirror is up): 7.3mm

...................Next I use a 3M scotch tape stick on the front of rear element.........

............................................. But unfortunately since I only tape the rear element and not the 2nd element, with all this head to head collision (and sometimes I turned the M42 adapter when it was topping the 2nd element) I caused a slightly smearing of the coating on the elements

. But this is a small price to pay for getting infinity.

If i understand this right you did always have at least one layer of tape between the last 2 elements?If so then the smearing is almost certainly gum from the tape-it should easily come off

I finally found my notes from when i measured the 5d mirror clearance:

EOS flange to mirror front (when mirror is up): 7.2mm
I also measured the mirror when it was partly down ,at a slight angle.At this point it has LESS clearance because the mirror is thick and so one edge naturally comes closer to the mount at that point.here it only gives 6.8mm ! (please note i cant remember what method i used to measure these.allow 0.1mm inaccuracy to be safe)
These numbers tally up well with actual testing.If i have my rear element set much more than 6.5mm back from the EOS mount surface,the mirror starts brushing it

Your claim that you've achieved infinity focus with a 1 series body got me thinking about all this recently.I wondered how accurate my rear element setting was and could i perhaps position it any closer to the 2nd last element.(some may remember i claimed to have them within 'less than' 0.5mm of each other without them touching)
After abit of thought and experimentation i managed to find a way of more accurately testing the gap between them!

First i must explain that my rear element holder has a slight forward extension which contacts the outer edge of the 2nd last element,stopping the glass parts of the two elements from touching.The point is-is this extension too long?

To test it i did the following:
I stuck a tiny piece of tape in the middle of the 2nd last element.When i tried to push the rear element assy against the 2nd last element nothing happened.

But when i tried two layers of this tape i could (*just*)rock the rear assy side to side.It was contacting the tape in the middle before the edges could seat properly.Also if i did try to press harder i could see the tape darken slightly as it was compressed.
Not believing it could be that clear i did this several times but it was the same every time.
After measuring the tape thickness i knew the gap had to be between 0.12mm and 0.24mm .
And due to the easily noticeable rocking motion i mentioned in the testing above ,it's most likely closer to the lower number.
So.. less than 1/4 of a mm gap! Pretty cool huh?

Since then i've had a little time to experiment with how far i can move the rear element forward and still achieve genuine infinity focus.
Sadly it seems to be no less than exactly 7mm -which is likely just a little too much for use on a 5D

When the brother visits with his 5D body this weekend i'll try it again but from past experimentation i'm guessing it wont work

Oct 27, 2009 at 02:05 PM

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