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Archive 2009 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem
  
 
Alf Beharie
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p.12 #1 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


m-a-x wrote:
Alf, sounds like a nice aperture thingy you made.


Heres a couple of pics of it:






Nov 07, 2009 at 09:37 PM
ronchappel
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p.12 #2 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Thats a shame about your missing lens elements.I hope it's not long before you can find some and finish it off


Nov 09, 2009 at 11:18 PM
m-a-x
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p.12 #3 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


The question about IQ difference between the 85 L and the 85 SSC is asked from time to time.
So far, I could see only one direct comparison, made by FM member Dim.ka and linked somwhere in this thread.

Here is one more, since I could not resist on an ebay deal.
I have them both converted and took them out today for some side-by-side shots on a shaved 5D mark 1.
It has been a sunny and nice day, just not for the main subject of the shots (I ate it afterwards).

The following pictures are crops from camera-jpegs and resized, but not sharpened or otherwise processed. The focus is spot on the sticker on the pear.
I tried to show the center sharpness, color, and some background blur.
I made a huge number of pictures by bracketing the exposure and also the focus.
Here are close to equal shots, at least in my belief.

First, the lenses:






85L @ f/2






85SSC @ f/2






85L @ f/4






85SSC @ f/4






I also took the Tamron SP 90mm f/2.5 Macro with me, which is a very good competitor at f/4:







And finally, for those who are interested, the two Canon lenses wide open:
85L @ f/1.2






85SSC @ f/1.2







In terms of image quality, I can not see a big difference in these shots.
( I don't claim that this test is representative. )
What I know: it is lovely to work with these lenses!



Nov 28, 2009 at 08:07 PM
Alf Beharie
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p.12 #4 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


With my eyes the 85L at f2 has a tiny bit better bokeh than the S.S.C at f2 but they are indeed very close.


Nov 29, 2009 at 05:44 PM
ronchappel
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p.12 #5 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Hi MAX ,thanks for the examples!
Are these 100% pixel crops?



Dec 02, 2009 at 11:48 PM
pengland
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p.12 #6 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


In my eye....in these tests... the 85L has the edge all the way through in terms of contrast and sharpness against both competitors.


Dec 03, 2009 at 02:39 AM
m-a-x
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p.12 #7 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


ronchappel wrote:
Hi MAX ,thanks for the examples!
Are these 100% pixel crops?


Hello Ron,
I did not use a scale but simply selected some fore-and background.
The crop should be 50%, or so.

Edit: If you wish 100% or 200% crops I could post them during the weekend.


Edited on Dec 03, 2009 at 08:17 AM · View previous versions



Dec 03, 2009 at 07:53 AM
m-a-x
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p.12 #8 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Nick,
that's an interesting observation.

I made some tests with my girlfriend and myself with pictures with disguised filenames, where even I could not discern the lenses.
In three from four picture sets, we liked the SSC more.

Still, I think they are so close it does not really matter which one I should sell. Since my assessment differs from yours, your opinion is at least substantiating this belief.

In fact, I start considering less significant things like the excellent aperture operation of the SSC versus the red ring of the L (which would look good in the cupboard next the FD50L, which is on the workbench now) ...

Edited on Dec 03, 2009 at 10:23 AM · View previous versions



Dec 03, 2009 at 08:14 AM
Alf Beharie
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p.12 #9 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Does that mean your selling your FD 85mm L max?...If so I'd be interested.


Dec 03, 2009 at 09:08 AM
m-a-x
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p.12 #10 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Alf,
as I said by PM I may sell it with the 5D. I will make a post on the B&S board.



Dec 03, 2009 at 10:22 AM
 

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pengland
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p.12 #11 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


m-a-x wrote:
Nick,
that's an interesting observation.

I made some tests with my girlfriend and myself with pictures with disguised filenames, where even I could not discern the lenses.
In three from four picture sets, we liked the SSC more.

Still, I think they are so close it does not really matter which one I should sell. Since my assessment differs from yours, your opinion is at least substantiating this belief.

In fact, I start considering less significant things like the excellent aperture operation of the SSC versus the red ring of the L (which would look good in the cupboard next
...Show more

Max,

Once again it comes down to what pleases the eye of the beholder.

I can only base my preference on the web jpegs viewed on my computer screen. The originals viewed on another screen might yield different results.

I don't understand your comment on the aperture control on the SSC vs the L. What is it in your opinion that makes the SSC superior in this regard?

Why are you selling your 5D with an unfinished FD50L conversion pending? My FD50L is my favourite lens on my 5D. Are you switching to a crop body?



Dec 03, 2009 at 12:06 PM
m-a-x
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p.12 #12 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Hello Nick, you're right with what you say about personal opinion.

The design of the rear of the lenses is a bit is different from the outside.

The aperture control ring of the 85L is plastic and does not *precisely* stop at the extreme aperture values but can be moved a little further. I reduced this little weakness during conversion, but could not fully eliminate it.
I found this inherent lack of precision (which is also to be found on the FD50L) quite surprising, considering they are "L" lenses.

The 85SSC has a metal aperture ring, the klicks are a little bit more distinct, and it stops very precisely at the extreme apertures. Plus, the aperture control ring is situated further away from the camera body, thus more accessible and a little bit more comfortable to operate.

I want to sell the 5D together with one of the 85ers to have funds for a 5D mkII



Dec 03, 2009 at 01:05 PM
cogitech
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p.12 #13 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


m-a-x wrote:
Hello Nick, you're right with what you say about personal opinion.

The design of the rear of the lenses is a bit is different from the outside.

The aperture control ring of the 85L is plastic and does not *precisely* stop at the extreme aperture values but can be moved a little further. I reduced this little weakness during conversion, but could not fully eliminate it.
I found this inherent lack of precision (which is also to be found on the FD50L) quite surprising, considering they are "L" lenses.

The 85SSC has a metal aperture ring, the klicks are a
...Show more

I can confirm what m-a-x is saying about the SSC. That extra aperture blade is a plus too, IMO.



Dec 03, 2009 at 01:15 PM
Alf Beharie
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p.12 #14 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


cogitech wrote:
The design of the rear of the lenses is a bit is different from the outside.

The aperture control ring of the 85L is plastic and does not *precisely* stop at the extreme aperture values but can be moved a little further. I reduced this little weakness during conversion, but could not fully eliminate it.


I managed it on my 85L...The extreme stops are spot on.

cogitech wrote:
I found this inherent lack of precision (which is also to be found on the FD50L) quite surprising, considering they are "L" lenses.


Perhaps it was a lack of precision during conversion that was the problem, not the lens?

cogitech wrote:
The 85SSC has a metal aperture ring, the klicks are a little bit more distinct, and it stops very precisely at the extreme apertures.


It was extremely easy to ensure the extreme stops were spot on. The left side of the fork bracket controls the f1.2 position and the cutout on the opposite side of the focus dial controls the f16 position...By snipping tiny amounts off the fork bracket and filing the cutout back in small increments I was able to get it spot on at both ends.




Dec 03, 2009 at 02:58 PM
m-a-x
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p.12 #15 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Alf Beharie wrote:
Perhaps it was a lack of precision during conversion that was the problem, not the lens?


Dear Alf, this is not the case.

Since the aperture ring of your lens in its original FD condition certainly behaved similar to my FD 85 L and my FD 50 L, I can find no sense in your little joke on my account.

Within the limits of the tools that I use, I would consider myself as a perfectionist. At least with respect to my latest couple of lens conversions.

The idea of using a Helios rear element as a substitute is more likely to leave an appearance of inaccuracy.



Dec 03, 2009 at 03:22 PM
Alf Beharie
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p.12 #16 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


I meant no offence, just stating that I found it easy to ensure the extreme stops were spot on, so I find it strange how anyone can blame the aperture dial design for a lack of precision.


Dec 03, 2009 at 03:29 PM
m-a-x
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p.12 #17 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Maybe I blame the aperture dial design because one has to modify the lens to make the ring stopping exactly at the extreme stops?

EDIT: ... and because this particular mod is simply not required in case of the older SSC lens.



Dec 03, 2009 at 03:30 PM
cogitech
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p.12 #18 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Alf Beharie wrote:
I managed it on my 85L...The extreme stops are spot on.



Perhaps it was a lack of precision during conversion that was the problem, not the lens?



It was extremely easy to ensure the extreme stops were spot on. The left side of the fork bracket controls the f1.2 position and the cutout on the opposite side of the focus dial controls the f16 position...By snipping tiny amounts off the fork bracket and filing the cutout back in small increments I was able to get it spot on at both ends.



I actually didn't write any of that. Why are you misquoting me?



Dec 03, 2009 at 03:55 PM
Alf Beharie
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p.12 #19 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


Actually I was'nt sure who I was quoting, I was just responding to the comments.


Dec 03, 2009 at 05:56 PM
pengland
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p.12 #20 · FD 85L f/1.2: a real gem


m-a-x wrote:
Hello Nick, you're right with what you say about personal opinion.

The design of the rear of the lenses is a bit is different from the outside.

The aperture control ring of the 85L is plastic and does not *precisely* stop at the extreme aperture values but can be moved a little further. I reduced this little weakness during conversion, but could not fully eliminate it.
I found this inherent lack of precision (which is also to be found on the FD50L) quite surprising, considering they are "L" lenses.

The 85SSC has a metal aperture ring, the klicks are a
...Show more

I agree that the aperture ring mechanism is more robust on the SSC series but I have never found there was a problem with a lack of positive stops or the presence of "slop" between stops on nFD lenses. In order to achieve defined stops on nFD lenses it is important that:

1) the aperture stop "roller" is seated properly and in good condition (not worn oval). It must also float smoothly in the square hole in the aperture ring.
2) the corresponding roller tension spring is in place and is correctly loaded. The clearance between the aperture ring and spacer above is critical not only to prevent the entrance of light and dirt etc....but also to determine spring tension. Lack of clearance will introduce friction and resistance to ring rotation. Excess clearance will reduce the load on the roller spring and make your stops sloppy. In worse cases it will also cause the aperture ring to "catch" when moving from the fully open position to the first or second stop down positions. This is caused when the aperture ring hits instead of slides under the back/adapter screw hole boss closest to the roller.
3) the stationary plastic detente strip (this is what I call it anyway) must be held solidly in place and must not have excessive wear between the "notches".
4) in the conversion of the aperture control mechanism you must NOT have introduced any kind of "lost motion". This could be caused by excessive play between the fabricated finger or tangs, weak attachments or lack of rigidity in the new mechanism at one or more points.

Are you going to give your 5D MkII a mirror shave to continue to use all your alts?



Dec 03, 2009 at 06:49 PM
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