fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
FM Forum Rules
Wedding Resource List
  

FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

       2       3              5       6       end
  

Archive 2009 · On Internet Critique

  
 
Evan Baines
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · On Internet Critique


Cross posted from my blog

************

Its safe to say that measured by volume, internet forums and image posting sites account for a sizable majority of the photographic criticism taking place in the world today. While in-person critiques in schools and photo clubs are still important, a large percentage of photographers young and old are now far more influenced by websites like Flickr.com and FredMiranda.com. These sites and others like them have contributed to a major acceleration of the dissemination of ideas and the progression rates of new photographers: their existence is a blessing to the art-form in many ways. However, the benefits created by such sites should not cause us to turn a blind-eye to their limitations. What follows is an examination of some common shortcomings of internet criticism. This is not intended to discount this mode of learning! Rather, it is my intention to encourage individuals partaking in this process to think critically as they assess the value of the feedback provided.


The Woman in the Red Dress:
All of us are familiar with this concept: the bombshell vixen in an eye-catching wardrobe who attracts the attention of everyone in the room. There may have been a number of attractive women in more demure costume with better conversational skills, more varied interests, and greater achievements... But alas they are overshadowed by this showy creature who may lack their substance. An internet forum is not unlike a singles bar: every photographer showing his or her stuff and trying to attract the attention of the crowd. I'm deeply suspicious of anyone who does not admit that in posting their images, they hope for a large number of positive responses. It is undeniable that the more showy flavors of photography tend to attract the attention of the crowd. Attractive subjects and extreme stylization achieve the best response, and thus this response conditions photographers to create and post ever more stylized images of only the most attractive subjects. Power overshadows grace, contrast overshadows tonality, vibrancy exceeds subtlety, and only the sexy folks get posted. This ultimately can affect the sort of images we seek to create: we may begin to shoot to impress the crowd rather than to create meaningful images for our clients!


The Strawberry Jam Experiment
Its no secret that internet forums are frequented by anyone from accomplished artists and professionals to neophytes and hacks, many posting more-or-less anonymously. Stop me if you've heard this one:

Photographer 1 posts a handful of images
Photographer 2 slams the images on a variety of technical failings
Photographer 3 jumps to photographer 1's defense and questions the authority of photographer 2 to pass judgement.
Photographer 4 pontificates that one doesn't have to be a good photographer to offer valid critique.

Along the way, photographers 1-4 all pick up adherents to their particular points of view and acrimony ensues until the thread is locked.

So who is right? Does one have to be an expert to provide valid critique of a photograph? The answer is yes-and-no.

In Malcolm Gladwell's fascinating book Blink, he details an experiment in which both experts and laypeople evaluated various brands of strawberry jam. Consumer Reports had taken all 44 of the major varieties of strawberry jam and given them to expert food tasters for evaluation and ranking. The experiment involved taking the first, eleventh, twenty-fourth, thirty-second, and fourty-fourth ranking jams and giving them to two separate groups of college students. The first group was simply told to rank the jams from best to worst, while the second group was asked for written explanations of their rankings.

Here's the interesting part: the group that was called upon simply for rankings produced results that showed an extremely high correlation to the expert's opinons. In general, the experts and the general public liked the same jams in the same order. However, the group that was being called upon to explain their ratings produced markedly different results from both their peers and the experts. It is the author's hypothesis (supported by other case studies discussed in the book) that while most of us possess a remarkable ability to intuitively evaluate a wide variety of subjects, only training and experience can enable one to quantify and explain his or her "gut feeling." Asking a layperson to evaluate a subject in technical terms frequently causes them to alter their preferences as they over-think their response. The second group of college students did not only disagree with the experts: statistically speaking they almost certainly got their own preferences wrong!

One of the fundamental differences between a traditional critique and an internet forum is that a traditional critique is usually at least moderated by individuals with established ability and stature. Internet forums provide far more democratic feedback. The experiment above suggests that one should value the snap-judgements of the average Joe, but when seeking detailed critical feedback one should be leery of the value of statements provided by those without the training and experience to quantify their gut feelings appropriately. They may in fact be distorting their own natural view of an image in an effort to apply a critical evaluation that they lack the capacity to provide.


Photography Idol
In a 1996 paper entitled "A Disconfirmation Bias in the Evaluation of Arguments," Kari Edwards and Edward Smith explore the extent of and manner in which individuals tend to be more receptive to facts and arguments that favor their preexisting beliefs, while seeking to undermine those that run contrary to their opinions. One relevant passage:

"When one is presented an argument to evaluate, there will be some automatic activation in memory of material relevant to the argument. Some of the accessed material will include one's prior beliefs about the issue."

In photography, no one evaluates an image in a vacuum. One of the most important preconditioning factors is the source of the image. When one is confronted by a Man Ray image in a museum, the validation conferred by his name and its presence in a gallery of stature causes us to seek out reasons why the work has merit. In fact, when the stature of the artist or of the third-party validation is great enough, one is tempted to find reasons to distrust one's own judgment if it is not in accordance. Alternately, when one is presented work from a relative unknown, or perhaps someone who is an acknowledged "newbie," one is far more likely to ascribe deviance from expected norms to faulty technique than to artistic choice.

This issue is exacerbated in photography forums, where one's status and acceptance into the group is dictated by both one's own ability and by the "correctness" of one's pronouncements on the work of others. Anyone who has spent time on these forums will recognize that new participants' work will commonly pass without comment until an established member of the community will set a baseline evaluation. Only a forum participant with a secure stature on the forum is willing to risk being "wrong" in their evaluation of the work.

This same effect causes many posters to become excessively nit-picky for fear of being branded ignorant for missing a "defect" such as missed focus or "incorrect" portrait light patterns. Technical minutia tend to become emphasized out of proportion to their true importance when images are subjected to internet critique.

For established members with a reputation for excellence, forum members will be both more likely to be looking for things to like about the posted images and be more likely to be willing to risk posting these positive opinions as the previous acceptance of the artist's work makes it more likely that this praise will be viewed as "the right response." Thus, forums have a tendency to create "rock stars" whose work is evaluated far differently from less established members. At the opposite end of the spectrum, this tends to explain the "dog-pile" effect when large masses of forum members descend on a thread to denounce the many failings of a piece of work.


I Am Wondering... Why Are You Here? (in Yoda Voice)
Why do so many of us devote so much time to internet forums? There are a multitude of reasons to be sure. Some enjoy finding a larger aggregation of like-minded individuals with identical interests than would be possible in our geographic vicinity. Some feel liberated by the greater anonymity offered by the internet, or feel more comfortable dealing with others by proxy: through text on a screen rather than face-to-face. Many might seek to create a mutually supportive learning environment. However, most photographers on an internet forum have at least an element of one of the following motivations at work:

1. Seeking validation of one's work and abilities.
2. Marketing one's business by establishing a professional reputation
3. Feeling like an authority on photography and hopefully making others respect you as such, by assigning value to other people's work, and contributing to the education of others.

Ultimately, ego and self interest are at least factors in the participation of most forum members. This is not mutually exclusive with elements of altruism or a desire to foster a mutually beneficial environment, but it needs to be understood as a factor as to why so many individuals give so much of their time to criticizing the work of others. There is a power dynamic at work. In a more traditional critique environment, typically the social heirarchy is more rigid (IE established student and teacher roles), thus there is less incentive for power plays in the evaluation of others' work.

I would hazard to say that a significant portion of the critique offered on internet sites is given with less earnest desire to foster the development of the artist than from the enjoyment of feeling like an authority, and the desire to be seen as one by the larger group. This is particularly true when the feedback amounts to little more than denouncement of an image or set of images without any constructive elements to build on.


Conclusion
This is not to say that internet feedback does not have value. However, a series of questions may assist one in filtering and evaluating the feedback one receives on such a forum:

1. Why am I posting my images? Am I looking for validation or growth? Is this an effort to learn or an effort to market myself?

2. Where do I fall in the existing social hierarchy of this forum? Am I a rock-star? A journeyman? A newbie? How does this status condition people to respond to my work?

3. What is the balance of style and substance in my work? Is my work the sort that reaches out and grabs the attention of the crowd, or are its merits more subtle and substantive? Does my work feature attention-getting subjects and locations?

4. What sort of person is evaluating my images? Do they have a body of work or qualification from which I can ascertain their relative knowledge-level and artistic preferences? Is this person providing expert critique or a layperson's impression?

5. What is the motivation of the person offering the feedback? Are they more interested in helping me or in looking cool to everyone else?


By asking these questions, one can increase the value of internet feedback. I'd further encourage anyone participating in such a forum to seek out more traditional critique and mentorship environments where one might temper internet feedback with that from a trusted authority or colleague. By combining the benefits of this modern vehicle for growth with the best of traditional methods, one can ensure the best opportunity for real education in photography.


Edited on Dec 16, 2009 at 10:17 AM · View previous versions



Mar 15, 2009 at 02:07 PM
CarminaF
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · On Internet Critique


Wow. Spot on.

I'm no rock star here - though I am the first to post. lol. Baseline bitches! No one in this group gives 2 poops about what I have to say, but I seem to say it anyways.



Edited on Mar 15, 2009 at 02:27 PM · View previous versions



Mar 15, 2009 at 02:23 PM
jcolman
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · On Internet Critique








The internet......serious business is serious.

Edited on Mar 15, 2009 at 02:36 PM · View previous versions



Mar 15, 2009 at 02:23 PM
RedWhiteandRed
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #4 · On Internet Critique


Now that - is an awful lot of typing.


Mar 15, 2009 at 02:26 PM
Marcel VanEerd
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · On Internet Critique


I agree with a lot of Evan's points when it comes to evaluating work from regular posters and those that are considered cutting edge/great. One tends to see positive reinforcement for a lot of aforementioned work as being top-notch. The example of finding reasons as to why Man Ray's work is great, is absolutely true. I have seen much work posted here that received great critiques and made me doubt my judgment.

Although I see your point ("Power overshadows grace, contrast overshadows tonality, vibrancy exceeds subtlety") this does not necessarily mean that power, contrast and vibrancy are not desired features in an image; there are many examples of work both extremely rich in tonality, contrast, composition and work that is quite the opposite that may be hard to judge as to which is the best. I've seen many times here that "content is king". That may be true, but that statement also does not give any absolute parameters to judge an image by.

I am always struggling with the dilemma of shooting for myself vs. shooting for my clients. I suppose as long as clients are happy, and I am happy with what I produced, it's a win-win situation, regardless of whether or not I followed a current trend. I'd like to think I am so talented and original as to come up with radically new imagery - and although I consider myself creative - I know I am not.

My work is, and always will be, inspired by what I see around me. If the "sexy posters" produce work I feel is worth trying to emulate, I am not ashamed to do so. The feedback/critique for me only serves as a guide as to what is currently "hot" and what people are willing to pay for. Still - if I don't like what I see, I won't go the same direction.

Thanks for posting excellent food for thought Evan! I am afraid though that those who should be reading it and taking it to heart are skipping your thread, and move on to threads with large, vibrant, contrasty images.



Mar 15, 2009 at 02:49 PM
ngoduyviet
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · On Internet Critique


Interesting read, thanks for sharing.


Mar 15, 2009 at 03:08 PM
rweav72
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · On Internet Critique


As a occasional poster and one who has never posted any of my own work, my main purpose here has been 1.) learning from both posted images and description and critique given by the members here. 2. equipment comparison and evaluation and 3.) encouragement and fellowship. Several that I have learned from their work and posts would include yourself, Sam Hassas, Tony Hoffer, Unblinkable (Melanie), Chuck Gardner and really the whole wedding FM'ers. In the people section, Steadyhand is one who always shares to encourage and is the first photographer that took time to interact through PM's and encouraged me to get involved. I'm an IT teacher and a part-time minister and I've recorded around 15,000 images in sports photography in the last two years. I want to branch into Senior portraits and Wedding photography and have found these forums to be both instructional and inspirational. I have noticed a much greater fellowship and helpful nature on the Wedding forum as a whole.
Evan, you have a real gift of organizing information in the most helpful way. Your insights have always been appreciated. For those who frequent these forums for some of the wrong reasons, perhaps your post will encourage people to realize that a helpful spirit not only improves the overall quality of photography evaluation but it improves your outlook on life as well.



Mar 15, 2009 at 03:17 PM
flashfemme
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · On Internet Critique


Great Work Evan. Very well put and lots of things to really ponder about.
Thanks for posting.



Mar 15, 2009 at 03:30 PM
unblinkable
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · On Internet Critique


Love it!

You write so loftily.



Mar 15, 2009 at 03:41 PM
Sam Hassas
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · On Internet Critique


I get this in person on Wednesday. Evan, I respect you in heeps man. You make me a better photographer.

~Sam



Mar 15, 2009 at 04:10 PM
BKphotography
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · On Internet Critique


Man, I would love to give you a long worded retort but the fact is I can't.
Grammer have never been my strong point and never will be.
You make a lot of sense here E.
I took from it what I felt was right for me.
Others should do the same.

...waiting on the first book...



Mar 15, 2009 at 04:50 PM
radioblurs
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · On Internet Critique


B, great read

what's funny is: you couldn't say half of this stuff if people didn't respect you and your body of work-if a newer or more brash personality posted some of this (albeit, likely less eloquently), it would be picked apart and a 3 page brawl would ensue

fortunately, that is not the case-ironic, though, isn't it?

it's all about respect and balance (between content and technique & encouragement and criticism), IMHO-we can certainly push our own work farther and help encourage/teach one another by utilizing some of the frameworks you've suggested-just my two, FWIW

daniel



Mar 15, 2009 at 05:47 PM
Lucky_Dog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · On Internet Critique


Man, you must not sleep very much with all that running around in your brain... great analysis, though.

I'll tell you what's tough... someone like me trying to learn and getting absolutely zero feedback when I post something. I would much rather be told that my work sucks, and have some reasons explained, than to be left swinging in the breeze.

I guess in the end the only thing that matters is that my clients are happy with my work.



Mar 15, 2009 at 05:58 PM
Volktronic
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · On Internet Critique


I Am Wondering... Why Are You Here? (in Yoda Voice)

I think you mean, "Wondering I am...why you are here?"






Mar 15, 2009 at 06:16 PM
CarminaF
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · On Internet Critique


Lucky_Dog wrote:
Man, you must not sleep very much with all that running around in your brain... great analysis, though.

I'll tell you what's tough... someone like me trying to learn and getting absolutely zero feedback when I post something. I would much rather be told that my work sucks, and have some reasons explained, than to be left swinging in the breeze.

I guess in the end the only thing that matters is that my clients are happy with my work.


Lucky Dog, in my experience, a negative reply is almost always viewed with reproach from the poster. A rockstar will chime in and sugercoat things, and negative feedback is swept aside. The OP places more stock on the sugarcoated version, and with cheer makers chiming in, the dissenting minority are bullied away. No one wants to get ganged up on for stating their opinion.

Also, no one wants to hurt someones feelings. If you want brutal, honest feedback, ask for it, and I'll give it.




Mar 15, 2009 at 06:18 PM
Lucky_Dog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · On Internet Critique


CarminaF wrote:
Lucky Dog, in my experience, a negative reply is almost always viewed with reproach from the poster. A rockstar will chime in and sugercoat things, and negative feedback is swept aside. The OP places more stock on the sugarcoated version, and with cheer makers chiming in, the dissenting minority are bullied away. No one wants to get ganged up on for stating their opinion.

Also, no one wants to hurt someones feelings. If you want brutal, honest feedback, ask for it, and I'll give it.



Actually, I believe that is a nuance of Evan's point.

Constructive criticism can be given without "hurting" someone's feelings. If someone is doing that, then they are merely knocking down someone else to move themselves up the totem pole... so to speak. That happens all too often on Internet boards, imo.



Mar 15, 2009 at 06:27 PM
CarminaF
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #17 · On Internet Critique


Lucky_Dog wrote:
Actually, I believe that is a nuance of Evan's point.

Constructive criticism can be given without "hurting" someone's feelings. If someone is doing that, then they are merely knocking down someone else to move themselves up the totem pole... so to speak. That happens all too often on Internet boards, imo.


I never said that negative crits have to be hurtful. I will generally post one or 2 liners for a couple reasons.

1) I don't have time to write a novella. A short reply may come across as terse, but its better than no reply. If the OP has skin so thin that they can't handle a shorthand assessment, maybe they should not be posting.

2) People don't read long posts. With the exception of Evan here, apparently haha.


Yes, some people are dickheads on the internet. I see it all the time, packs of people who are just mean and roll together - like we were back in highschool or something. I don't see that here though.



Mar 15, 2009 at 06:36 PM
RedWhiteandRed
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #18 · On Internet Critique


Lucky_Dog wrote:
Constructive criticism can be given without "hurting" someone's feelings. If someone is doing that, then they are merely knocking down someone else to move themselves up the totem pole... so to speak. That happens all too often on Internet boards, imo.



No need to bother. Drive the truck in the middle of the road. A simple declarative sentence removes most ambiguity. If something is poor - say it is poor. If it stinks - say it stinks.



Mar 15, 2009 at 06:40 PM
Lucky_Dog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · On Internet Critique


CarminaF wrote:
I never said that negative crits have to be hurtful. I will generally post one or 2 liners for a couple reasons.

1) I don't have time to write a novella. A short reply may come across as terse, but its better than no reply. If the OP has skin so thin that they can't handle a shorthand assessment, maybe they should not be posting.

2) People don't read long posts. With the exception of Evan here, apparently haha.

Yes, some people are dickheads on the internet. I see it all the time, packs of people who are just mean and
...Show more

You must have a guilty conscience. I was pretty careful not to indict you; frankly I have no opinion about your behavior around here… sorry if you thought I was speaking about you.



Mar 15, 2009 at 06:42 PM
Lucky_Dog
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · On Internet Critique


RedWhiteandRed wrote:
No need to bother. Drive the truck in the middle of the road. A simple declarative sentence removes most ambiguity. If something is poor - say it is poor. If it stinks - say it stinks.


No offense, but ambiguity is you... quite purposely, I'm sure.



Mar 15, 2009 at 06:49 PM
       2       3              5       6       end




FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

       2       3              5       6       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account