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Archive 2008 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

The Grays
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p.3 #1 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

lindabrowne wrote:
adimage wrote:
On a CF card there is no way to recover information from areas that have been overwritten.

Thankfully that is a myth. It is often possible to recover the files even if the cf card has been completely overwritten.

I have recovered 2 shoots on cards that had been overwritten twice. Very true!

-Zach

Dec 18, 2008 at 04:05 AM

cordellwillis
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p.3 #2 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

manyquestions wrote:
cordellwillis wrote:
Are you sure about that

I'm not sure where that is stated, but it's still recoverable. TO remove the information all it takes is low level formatting. This is a rare understanding to most. Low Level formatting absolutely removes everything.

Not on any storage device manufactured in the last ten years (probably longer). Older drives (ST506, ESDI) were dumb, didn't have servo information on the platters and a low-level format really wrote new track locations on - modern drives just write fill in a similar manner to a normal write on a low-level format. The data can still be recovered by a good outfit (eg, Ontrack).

This is why when we destroy drives containing sensible information, we smash 'em with a hammer, cut 'em into bits and then burn 'em. Or pull 'em apart and dremel the platters.

You're mostly correct. However, there are still ways to access low level writes. It's not in the BIOS like it once was though (thank goodness). Although it actually is now "Zero Fill" which is not the same process, but the same results. It's still around for (E)IDE drives if ever needed; don't know many who do need it considering I would do the same as you and smash the disk and apply heat.

I haven't seen anything after SATA was introduced years ago, and I stop keeping up with it.

Dec 18, 2008 at 04:17 AM

adimage
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p.3 #3 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

Hmm, about data that was overwritten and then recovered, I thought that it is virtually impossible to get back. I once used Rescue Pro (I wrote here some time ago about that experience) and have got only files from the last shoot (CF cards were full). I may be wrong though.

Just out of curiosity, how is it possible to have a card formatted, then filled up completely with different images and then recover what was initially on it? (I mean I would like to know how this works)...

Dec 18, 2008 at 07:05 AM

figmented
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p.3 #4 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

So you guys are saying, i can take a 16gb card, and fill it up with photos, then delete them all, then fill it up again with photos to the max, and I should beable to recover 16gb of 'extra' files? you guys are insane, or drink too much mad dog 20/20.

Otherwise they would sell them as 32gb cards and have 2 layers to write files too (like dvd/blueray), but unfortunately the only data you can recover is what you havnt already written over. So while yes you can fill it up 16gb, delete them all, and shoot 14gb more of pics and recover from the 2gb you didnt write over, there is no way you can fill up a card, delete them, fill it up again, and be able to get files from the first fill up.

I've had client data recovered before, it was about 200gb worth spread across a RAID5 hdd setup using IBM deskstars (deathstars in the IT world) that got fried from a bad power supply, and to the tune of 10,000$ - luckily insurance covered it.

I've also recovered files from CF cards, but not after filling them up again.

Dec 18, 2008 at 07:30 AM

marko1953
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p.3 #5 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

I don't know how this stuff works either but once I used Rescue pro and found some old photos from about a year ago, the card had been "overwritten" many times. It was really weird to see some old photos from an old dance shoot I did. I have no idea how this happens.

Dec 18, 2008 at 10:36 AM

dmacmillan
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p.3 #6 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

First, I'd like to wish the OP well on his recovery attempts.

This thread is filled with some good advice along with some misunderstanding of how information is written to storage devices and what is and isn't possible in recovery. I'll spare you the technical details.

I was a little surprised on how many self inflicted data loss stories were shared here. I heartily recommend anyone who photographs weddings for money to examine their entire workflow from the time the image is captured on the card until the photographs are delivered to the client. I'm a former pro who left the profession before digital. I now shoot just for fun, yet all my images reside on four different hard drives on two different machines plus 2 archive quality DVD's. I guess I'm anal. I've survived two different crashes and have yet to lose a single image.

I just checked the price of CF cards. There's no reason why anyone who does this for a living can't file away an entire wedding's cards and not put them back into circulation until the wedding is delivered to the client. If it is a big expensive wedding, why not permanently retire the cards? When I shot weddings on film, I'd have a couple of hundred dollars tied up in each just in film and proofing costs. Just factor it into your price structure.

Doug

Dec 18, 2008 at 02:11 PM

rocksy
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p.3 #7 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

The Grays wrote:
lindabrowne wrote:
adimage wrote:
On a CF card there is no way to recover information from areas that have been overwritten.

Thankfully that is a myth. It is often possible to recover the files even if the cf card has been completely overwritten.

I have recovered 2 shoots on cards that had been overwritten twice. Very true!

-Zach

In fact, it's not a myth. It's the truth. I work in IT field and i have some experience with these things.You can recover data only from the space that has not beed overwritten.
So those 2 shoots must have been on the space that has not been overwritten.

1.
Let's say that you have a 4GB card. You fill it on a shoot.
Download on computer, than format it
The next event, you fill only 3GB on the card.
When you try to recover the pics with any software available, you get the 3 GB from the last session, and the last 1GB from the "before" session.

2.

Let's say that you have a 4GB card. You fill it on a shoot.
Download on computer, than format it.
The next event, you fill the card again until there is no space for a single shot.
When you try to recover the pics with any software available, you get the 4 GB from the last session, and nothing from the "before" session. Maybe NASA can help you...

Dec 18, 2008 at 02:22 PM

Mike Mahoney
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p.3 #8 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

rocksy wrote:
Maybe NASA can help you...

Or extra terrestrials .. either way their seems to be an idea developing here that overwritten and deleted data is simply a mouseclick away from complete recovery.

Which is totally & absolutely untrue.

Dec 18, 2008 at 02:43 PM

Kelliebrew
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p.3 #9 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

I had a corrupt card and www.drivesavers.com retrieved all of my images.

Dec 18, 2008 at 02:53 PM

Realmstalker
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p.3 #10 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

dmacmillan wrote:
I just checked the price of CF cards. There's no reason why anyone who does this for a living can't file away an entire wedding's cards and not put them back into circulation until the wedding is delivered to the client. If it is a big expensive wedding, why not permanently retire the cards? When I shot weddings on film, I'd have a couple of hundred dollars tied up in each just in film and proofing costs. Just factor it into your price structure.

Doug

I think that's a great idea. CF Cards dont really deteriorate like DVDs have the capability of doing. I'd still back up to a DVD anyways and to an external HD and online storage like I do now, keeping the original CF full of the RAWs couldn't hurt. I could see it being an expendible thing like film for big weddings.

Dec 18, 2008 at 02:59 PM

Matt Khoury
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p.3 #11 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

adimage wrote:
Hmm, about data that was overwritten and then recovered, I thought that it is virtually impossible to get back. I once used Rescue Pro (I wrote here some time ago about that experience) and have got only files from the last shoot (CF cards were full). I may be wrong though.

Just out of curiosity, how is it possible to have a card formatted, then filled up completely with different images and then recover what was initially on it? (I mean I would like to know how this works)...

you need to understand how drives work (not speaking about CF's). NOTHING is ever really deleted, ok, maybe if you write 0's to the drive 40 times over. I'm a fairly technical guy but even I don't understand how it's possibly to recover the information - but it is. I did it. as the saying goes, nothing is really ever deleted. so don't ever sell your harddrives or sell your computers with the original harddrive in tact. because information on it can be retrieved. easily i might.

Dec 18, 2008 at 04:07 PM

gfrasur
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p.3 #12 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

Brian Mullins wrote:
gfrasur wrote:
I'm curious how business insurance or a specific type of contract would help here. What could the OP be sued for, particularly if he gives the client a full refund?

Greg

Well, besides being sued for the money paid, you can be sued for emotional damages arising from having no photos from the wedding day. He was paid to do a job and (sorry man), but he didn't deliver what he was hired for.

But he/she couldn't be sued for money they returned already, right? Also, I asked a lawyer friend of mine about emotional damages and such, and his answer was that it would be unlikely for a court to view wedding photos as having any intangible emotional value. That your wedding photos are kind of like your pets: you love them and they are irreplaceable to you, but the law does not recognize them as having emotional/sentimental monetary value. Also, wouldn't it be difficult to prove negligence, since digital data is not a guaranteed, foolproof medium?

I'm not saying that my lawyer friend is automatically right, just because he's a lawyer, but I've yet to see anyone give an example for the emotional value of pictures. I googled it myself and couldn't find any examples in the news either. So I'm curious if anyone here has even been sued for "emotional damages."

Greg

Dec 18, 2008 at 04:37 PM

melvinho
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p.3 #13 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

Latest update.

Managed to recover the files but most of them was corrupted. The JPGs recovered cannot be viewed nor show their properties when right-clicked.
I tried JPED Recovery Pro and PixRecovery but no joy. Total files missing, 191.

Dec 18, 2008 at 05:07 PM

polarbare
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p.3 #14 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

FWIW, there's a reason the DoD and DSS have a standard for wiping & degaussing drives. A simple format/overwrite is not usually destructive to the previously written data.

Dec 18, 2008 at 05:08 PM

Craig Gillette
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p.3 #15 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

"Emotional damages" are bandied about but aren't easily established. That doesn't mean that other "real" damages can't be established. A wedding is a chain of events, building on certain expectations. If one of those fails, how is the party restored to where they would have been? While one can't re-do the event in the sense that there is only one "kiss the bride," poses, settings can be re-staged, etc. That might require travel expenses, re-rental of formal wear, re-renting the venue, etc.

Unfortunately, as helpful in a technical sense the forum discussion is, it's also public discussion of the steps the OP took, or didn't, in performing to the contract. "I did a, b & d, instead of A, B & C, which I usually do." Yikes.

If you have insurance, I would think that they should already have been notified (it might be a policy requirement). Certainly you should discuss things with your lawyer or your attorney before entering into discussions/negotiations with the clients (and perhaps before any more public discussions). The insurance company may have access to drive recovery services as well.

Dec 18, 2008 at 06:20 PM

Cathy Yount
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p.3 #16 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

I'm curious how business insurance or a specific type of contract would help here. What could the OP be sued for, particularly if he gives the client a full refund?

Well, besides being sued for the money paid, you can be sued for emotional damages arising from having no photos from the wedding day.

I sent my contract to my lawyer, who is brilliant (past bride...exchanged some services), and she wrote a clause in my contract that covers this (I'm pretty sure). It's not wedding related, just general contract language. She took my original PPA contract and added language to the Acts of God clause and added another Limitation of Liability clause.

PM sent!

Dec 18, 2008 at 06:47 PM

dmacmillan
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p.3 #17 · Lost 40% of the photos. What should I do?

polarbare wrote:
FWIW, there's a reason the DoD and DSS have a standard for wiping & degaussing drives. A simple format/overwrite is not usually destructive to the previously written data.
The funny thing is that when you follow the guidelines and fill out all the paperwork, you've got way more invested in worker hours than the drive costs. Don't ask me how I know. I've been advocating just yanking the drives and feeding them to a metal shredder.

Doug

Dec 18, 2008 at 09:10 PM

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