5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

FM Forum Rules
Canon SLRs, primes, and zooms lenses reviews

FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell	Search Used
1 2 3 … 5 6 end

Archive 2008 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Zeder
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #1 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

LotsToLearn wrote:
A Canon statement is supposedly coming...

Link

Has anyone noticed how OOF the picture of Chuck Westfall is?

Dec 11, 2008 at 07:59 PM

Hey.Underpants
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #2 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Its a flattering soft focus.

Seriously though, does a "real" photo that has this problem exist?

Dec 11, 2008 at 08:05 PM

Matt B.
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #3 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Hey.Underpants wrote:
Its a flattering soft focus.

Seriously though, does a "real" photo that has this problem exist?

Indeed several of us are curious about this. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if Canon did this as a move to aggresively fight ESO Syndrome in it's users. If the pictures are bad they are purposely made unuseable.

For those that don't know, ESO = Equipment Superior to Operator.

Dec 11, 2008 at 08:41 PM

Curator
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #4 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

CMOS wrote:
Actually, I am seeing the problem in photos that I'd consider printing. There's an amusement park not far from where I live. It's got lots of neon accent pieces. I was out there a few days ago with the wide angle getting some fun shots of the signage. Plenty of those shots have black dots bordering the neon lights.

Those weren't test shots, I was actually trying to compose something interesting. They might not be masterpieces, but they were legitimate shots.

Can you post a link to these shots?

Dec 11, 2008 at 08:54 PM

monochrome
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #5 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Mattbtn wrote:
CMOS wrote:

I just can't believe that Canon has screwed up yet another major product release.

Like someone else asked, do you happen to have a picture worth printing that shows the problem?

I'm just trying to figure out how big of an issue this really is. If it only comes up in shots that less than 1% of all users take, I'd hardly call that a screw up.

Wow, your statement is pretty similar to how many were reacting to the posts 1D3 and AF problems.

Doesn't have to be worth printing to see that there is a problem here, so much that Canon has acknowledge it, with comments coming soon.

Dec 11, 2008 at 09:10 PM

kevin2i
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #6 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Curator wrote:
kevin2i wrote:
Not good for christmas lights. Canon forgot the "Christmas tree mode" on the the 5dII.
the iso50 is not bad (just a few dots) but the iso200 is very noticeable. 100% crop. 85L/1.2

Do you have any normal shots, something that you would actually want to print, that shows this problem?

I'm done with spot hunting for now, but . . . .

The same day I received the camera - I found out about the spot issue. My first decision is whether or not to keep the camera - so I tired to 'provoke' the dots, and see what reduces the impact. ISO 50 & HTP<off> seem to minimize the issue with my camera. At this point I'm probably going to keep the camera - since I have a good idea of when the dots occur, and how they affect image quality.

The grid picture - shows lots of dots at the center/bottom. The dots are at grid highlights - right side of each reflection. These are not noticeable at 24x36 print size - and most (sane) people do not inspect large prints under magnification. However, those dots are annoying when post-processing, and will litter any night shot of city lights.

But if you are cropping a high ISO shot - the dots could become an issue.

Here is a complaint on the job - the dots can get ugly.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=30308463

I don't have a shoot scheduled until next Tuesday - but I know in fashion shots the dots will rarely even appear - but that does not get Canon off the hook.

Dec 12, 2008 at 02:19 AM

Rojhan
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #7 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

My "black dot" experience.

- I had to fight to get them to appear
- HTP on, ALO on, NR off
- ISO 3200
- Evaluative metering
- Shooting RAW + .jpg/large/fine
- 35mm/1.4L and 200/2.8L primes
- Lightroom 2.1 on Vista Home Premium, 64-bit Intel

I first tried some outdoor Christmas lights at night (handheld), then a test arrangement of lights spanning a matte black and a white background indoors with lights off at night (tripod), both with the 35mm at 1.4, and finally another night shot with the 200mm at 2.8 on a tripod. I shot -1, 0, and +1 EC. I didn't test with HTP or ALO off although I haven't used either one other than for testing.

- Nothing obvious with the handheld shots.
- A handful of dots with the 200mm.
- Almost all of the dots were on green lights
- More obvious at longer exposures (max exposure was 1/2 second)
- I didn't see any on white lights.
- Dots were 1 or 2 pixels
- Cranking up exposure/curves, and they appear to not actually be black, just dark
- I had to look at 300% to find them, then I could see them back at 100%.

I actually had a more noticeable (but still minor) issue with lens/UV filter reflection. CA and fringing were much more noticeable than black dots.

While I'd still like a "perfect" camera/sensor, I'm not going to break down Canon's door for a refund or replacement.

Dec 12, 2008 at 04:06 AM

kevin2i
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #8 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Dots Bad?
Maybe we should look at the dots as a mark of distinction. I can hear an art director . . .
"What? No black dots? Go reshoot this with a mkII and get back to me"

At the Gallery: "and here we have a lovely city skyline taken by a wonderful photographer. His attention to detail is amazing - he actually signs every light in microdot form, which really transcends his work to a unique plateau above other local artists . . . ."

Wonder how long Nikon will take to rush a BD model to market?

Dec 12, 2008 at 04:55 AM

Dawei Ye
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #9 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Sorry if this was posted but I cracked up when reading this:

Black Pixel Edges

Tweakers managed to break a 5D Mark II and get some blacker pixels on the edges of blown-out highlights.

I can't get mine to do it.

..."managed to break"

From Ken Rockwell. His review is actually quite good despite his notoriety: http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/5d-mk-ii.htm#perf

Dec 12, 2008 at 10:48 AM

itsskin
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #10 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Here we go: black HOLES in video mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFaZXYhHrUI

Dec 12, 2008 at 12:54 PM

akclimber
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #11 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

itsskin wrote:
Here we go: black HOLES in video mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFaZXYhHrUI

Wow. Thanks.

Dec 12, 2008 at 01:44 PM

DaveEP
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #12 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

itsskin wrote:
Here we go: black HOLES in video mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFaZXYhHrUI

Interesting that they come and go, suggesting it could be specific places (signal lines and/or amps) on the sensor that are the cause.

Dec 12, 2008 at 03:47 PM

CMOS
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #13 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Anyone know if Canon is still shipping the cameras out to dealers? If they stopped, that would be a possble indication that Canon is thinking of a recall for a hardware problem. If Canon is still shipping out, maybe they think it's a firmware problem.

I guess it's also possible that Canon will keep shipping and then just have to recall more cameras...

Dec 12, 2008 at 04:29 PM

George.ML
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #14 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

DaveEP wrote:
itsskin wrote:
Here we go: black HOLES in video mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFaZXYhHrUI

Interesting that they come and go, suggesting it could be specific places (signal lines and/or amps) on the sensor that are the cause.

Or, the light intensity is changing as the cars move.

Btw, this could have been posted here already but here it is anyway:
http://www.appliedcolorscience.com/black_sun.htm

Dec 12, 2008 at 05:23 PM

CMOS
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #15 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

George.ML wrote:
Btw, this could have been posted here already but here it is anyway:
http://www.appliedcolorscience.com/black_sun.htm

Great find! This has got to be it. Samsung recently got a patent for a "Column analog-to-digital converter of a CMOS image sensor for preventing a sun black effect "

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=7218260.PN.&OS=PN/7218260&RS=PN/7218260

and Kodak has a patent application as well for "METHOD FOR CORRECTING ECLIPSE OR DARKLE"
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220070091193%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20070091193&RS=DN/20070091193

Bad news is that both of these solutions look like hardware. You guys have identified a real structural problem with CMOS sensor. I can't wait to see how Canon is going to fix this one.

Edited on Dec 12, 2008 at 07:20 PM · View previous versions

Dec 12, 2008 at 07:05 PM

ayip
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #16 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

I found the dots in one of my "real" images. Not a masterpiece, but something that I might print if I had composed it better. I shared it on the other black dots thread, but I'll post it here too:
http://www.andrewyip.com/blog/2008/12/09/black-dots-in-5d-mark-ii-images

Dec 12, 2008 at 07:06 PM

CarlG
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #17 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Rob Galbraith has been conspicuously quiet through all of this....I guess when Canon dropped him from their "favorite sons" list, he no longer chimes in about Canon issues?

Dec 12, 2008 at 10:17 PM

matsuib
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #18 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

CarlG wrote:
Rob Galbraith has been conspicuously quiet through all of this....I guess when Canon dropped him from their "favorite sons" list, he no longer chimes in about Canon issues?

I thought one of the reasons he focused on the 1D III issue is because he extensively used it for sports -- whereas I don't know if there's any indication he similarly uses a 5D II at all or at least in a manner that would generate black dots.

Dec 13, 2008 at 12:38 AM

genoph
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #19 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

It's a reproducible Firmware Problem. High iso with Highlight tone priority on.

This proves that Canon Cares more about building the camera than pixel peeping the photo's from it.

Also, funny that none of the explorers of Light Caught this. You'd think a real pro would find....

Oh right, they actually use the camera properly...

Dec 13, 2008 at 12:52 AM

Wickedfn4u
Online
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #20 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

Zeder wrote:
LotsToLearn wrote:
A Canon statement is supposedly coming...

Link

Has anyone noticed how OOF the picture of Chuck Westfall is?

It was taken with a 1DM3 pre blue dot.

Dec 13, 2008 at 01:09 AM

CMOS
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #21 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

genoph wrote:
It's a reproducible Firmware Problem. High iso with Highlight tone priority on.

For the record, it has been shown to occur with highlight tone priority off.

Dec 13, 2008 at 02:48 AM

CMOS
Offline
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #22 · 5Dmk2: Black Dot Phenomenon

CarlG wrote:
Rob Galbraith has been conspicuously quiet through all of this....I guess when Canon dropped him from their "favorite sons" list, he no longer chimes in about Canon issues?

Mel Gross over in the main 5D2 forum noted that Rob just posted about an interview with Chuck on this very subject:

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-9319-9812

There you have it! "good news" may be on the way,

Dec 13, 2008 at 02:53 AM


FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 … 5 6 end