Register · Search · Software · Join Upload & Sell · Hosting

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username   Password

FM Forum Rules
FM Forums | Pro Digital Corner | Join Upload & Sell   
Search Used
1
2 end
  

Archive 2008 · Show me the $$$
  
 
Dustin Jensen
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · Show me the $$$


1)What type of photography pays the best?

2)What type has the best ROI. (not just money, but time, dealing with bridzillas, ect.)

What do you guys think?

Nov 29, 2008 at 07:05 AM
Matt B.
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #2 · Show me the $$$


Very difficult questions to ask. Are you asking from the perspective of someone who has never shot professionally? Or someone looking to change direction? There aren't many constants between professional photographers, so what's best for one person may not be best for another.

Every type of photography has the opportunity to pay the best for you, it's all a matter of what you can deliver to a prospective client. Some might say wedding photography pays the best, but others might be able to stick solely with commercial or other types of photography and come out further ahead. It all depends on your experience and ability to maximize on your strengths.

ROI is equally tricky. Some wedding photographers may be terribly inefficient, and thus have to spend several more hours preparing and/or doing post processing work, while other experienced photogs can run through the same amount of work much more quickly. Both might charge the same price, but one has a much better ROI than the other.

I'll be interested to see how other people answer.

Nov 29, 2008 at 01:52 PM
martines34
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · Show me the $$$


Dustin:

I don't mean to be offensive.

Your question represents many of similar questions I have seen on the internet where individuals query the internet to get their answers to complex questions so that they (the individual) don't have to do any work.

You somehow see that photography could/should garner you some money.

Do you really have a passion for photography? Have you ever been in business for yourself? Have you done any work in the photographic side of advertising or working for a professional in photography?

How much sacrifice are you willing to make to start a successful business? Have you ever worked with a private photographer? Have you shot any paying weddings? Have you worked for a studio photographer??

If you intend to have others do your homework then what is left for you to do? What happens when their suggestions don't work out?? Who do you blame??

These are the questions that come to my mind when I read similar questions as yours on various boards.



Nov 29, 2008 at 02:21 PM
Nathan Whitchu
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · Show me the $$$


Porn

Nov 29, 2008 at 05:11 PM
eosuser2020
Offline
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #5 · Show me the $$$


If you are the best in your field...any type of photography pays!

Nov 29, 2008 at 05:17 PM
Chefdaniel
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · Show me the $$$


Porn, you are right!

Nov 29, 2008 at 05:25 PM
Dustin Jensen
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · Show me the $$$


Mattbtn wrote:
Very difficult questions to ask. Are you asking from the perspective of someone who has never shot professionally? Or someone looking to change direction? There aren't many constants between professional photographers, so what's best for one person may not be best for another.

Every type of photography has the opportunity to pay the best for you, it's all a matter of what you can deliver to a prospective client. Some might say wedding photography pays the best, but others might be able to stick solely with commercial or other types of photography and come out further ahead. It all depends on your experience and ability to maximize on your strengths.

ROI is equally tricky. Some wedding photographers may be terribly inefficient, and thus have to spend several more hours preparing and/or doing post processing work, while other experienced photogs can run through the same amount of work much more quickly. Both might charge the same price, but one has a much better ROI than the other.

I'll be interested to see how other people answer.



Thanks for your answer. This probably is pretty hard difficult to pin down. I'd be interested if anyone has any experince or insight into this. Not that I want to drop everything and move into the field. I guess it's just curiosity.

Nov 29, 2008 at 05:56 PM
shatterkiss
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · Show me the $$$


Nathan Whitchu wrote:
Porn


Much less lucrative than you would think and involves relatively high up-front spending with no guarantee of return (unless you're contract shooting for an established outlet), much like shooting high-end stock. It's all about volume, so you will have spent quite a lot of money to create original content before you're able to attract even a small volume of subscribers.

I suspect it's easier to earn a living on the video side.

This is a bit of a silly thread, as the entire question is all about context. The most lucrative type of photography? High-end commercial advertising, assuming you're one of the 20 most successful photographers in the world: you might be pulling $100,000 day rates plus additional usage licensing for extending campaigns to other markets or mediums. Or high-end editorial portraiture, assuming you're Annie or Testino or Seliger or Lachapelle or Demarchelier.

If you aren't one of the most successful photographers in the world, then it's whatever type of photography and business you're best at, since you're going to struggle at any of the types that you're working against your own aptitudes with. We can't all shoot everything equally - your eye and voice and business sensibilities will be better-geared towards some things than others. Figure out what you're capable of and excel at that, find a way to make money from it.

Nov 29, 2008 at 06:01 PM
Dustin Jensen
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · Show me the $$$


martines34 wrote:
Dustin:

I don't mean to be offensive.

Your question represents many of similar questions I have seen on the internet where individuals query the internet to get their answers to complex questions so that they (the individual) don't have to do any work.

You somehow see that photography could/should garner you some money.

Do you really have a passion for photography? Have you ever been in business for yourself? Have you done any work in the photographic side of advertising or working for a professional in photography?

How much sacrifice are you willing to make to start a successful business? Have you ever worked with a private photographer? Have you shot any paying weddings? Have you worked for a studio photographer??

If you intend to have others do your homework then what is left for you to do? What happens when their suggestions don't work out?? Who do you blame??

These are the questions that come to my mind when I read similar questions as yours on various boards.




Thanks for sharing the questions that come your to mind. -- and of course, you would be to blame. -- Duh.

Edited on Nov 29, 2008 at 06:11 PM · View previous versions


Nov 29, 2008 at 06:01 PM
Dustin Jensen
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · Show me the $$$


shatterkiss wrote:
Nathan Whitchu wrote:
Porn


Much less lucrative than you would think and involves relatively high up-front spending with no guarantee of return (unless you're contract shooting for an established outlet), much like shooting high-end stock. It's all about volume, so you will have spent quite a lot of money to create original content before you're able to attract even a small volume of subscribers.

I suspect it's easier to earn a living on the video side.

This is a bit of a silly thread, as the entire question is all about context. The most lucrative type of photography? High-end commercial advertising, assuming you're one of the 20 most successful photographers in the world: you might be pulling $100,000 day rates plus additional usage licensing for extending campaigns to other markets or mediums. Or high-end editorial portraiture, assuming you're Annie or Testino or Seliger or Lachapelle or Demarchelier.

If you aren't one of the most successful photographers in the world, then it's whatever type of photography and business you're best at, since you're going to struggle at any of the types that you're working against your own aptitudes with. We can't all shoot everything equally - your eye and voice and business sensibilities will be better-geared towards some things than others. Figure out what you're capable of and excel at that, find a way to make money from it.



In your experince do commercial photogs make more money than consumer? Logically, it would seem that a photographer who gets several gigs from one contact would come out on top because she would spend less marketing and selling.

I'm really asking for me. Photography has never been about really been about money, but just doing what I have fun doing. I was just wondering about this stuff and though I'd make a post.

Nov 29, 2008 at 06:10 PM
shatterkiss
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · Show me the $$$


Dustin Jensen wrote:
In your experince do commercial photogs make more money than consumer?


Oh lord yes. Commercial photographers can make more on one gig than consumer photographers might make all year. Obviously there are exceptions to any rule, and it's going to depend on what you mean by "consumer".

How many prints is your average small-market private portrait photographer going to have to sell, at $40-50 each, to compare to the commercial shooter to charges a $50,000 licensing fee on top of their creative fee and retouching fees?

Logically, it would seem that a photographer who gets several gigs from one contact would come out on top because she would spend less marketing and selling.

Commercial photographers are the best example of someone who gets multiple gigs from one contact. Do right by an art director, photo editor, art buyer or agency and they're going to hire you over and over again. How many times does one person hire a wedding photographer? How many times does your family hire a photographer for a formal portrait sitting? Commercial entities will always be greater consumers of photographic services than private citizens, even if only by virtue of being greater consumers across the board.

Your average ad agency is going to have any number of campaigns being worked on at any given time, your average fashion brand needs to put out a new look book or catalogue for every season, your average retail brand needs new in-store signage on a constant basis, your average mass-market national magazine probably hires 5-20 photographers per issue. Do right by a commercial client and I guarantee they'll hire you more than once.

Also keep in mind that many (most?) successful commercial shooters work with reps or agencies - they're not doing the majority of their own marketing or even responding to enquiries, and frequently the reps will even generate initial budgets (or the photographers will work with shoot producers who do so).

Nov 29, 2008 at 07:01 PM
Dustin Jensen
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #12 · Show me the $$$


Thanks fro your sincere response Shatterkiss.

I've dabbled in both types (but haven't quit my full time desk job yet). I did some work for a magazine and it felt like it was so much more fulfilling than taking baby pictures or whatnot. But I only got paid 100 bucks for the magazine shot. It's probably pretty difficult to break into the really well paid magazine photography.

I whipped up this distribution based on census data for photographers in my area (my current job is marketing research btw)



This image is copyrighted by the owner




I'd be interested to find this same kind of data for photogs based on the photography they do.

Nov 29, 2008 at 08:32 PM
Edgar Maguyon
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · Show me the $$$


creative/post/license fees aside, doesnt most of the budget from a client or agency go into pre-production/production of a high-end editorial or commercial photoshoot? And only a small percentage of the money goes into the photogs pocket?

(ie: say a 50-100K budget including fees, maybe 10% of that will go into the photographers pocket with maybe some extra overhead/mark-up leftover money from the shoot if lucky; while the other 90%(or most of it anyways) go to pre-prod, crew, talent, artist collabs, rentals, permits, etc, etc.)

As far as marketing and reps/agencies doing most of that repping for you; wouldnt I/you(the photog) still have to spend a considerable amount of time and $$ to promote oneself towards these reps/agencies?



Nov 29, 2008 at 10:10 PM
 



Dustin Jensen
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · Show me the $$$


Edgar:

I was just reading about this. It seems that this is the typical scheme, but some clients are moving to to an all-in fee;
the all-in fee, which is designed to cover absolutely all costs, and leaves the photographer in charge as to how it is spent. This kind of deal is usually suggested when the shoot is to take place in small section, over a period of months, with a day here and half a day there. From a picture editor's perspective, "It's almost like getting a discount", Preddy explains. "You're giving the whole job to one photographer, rather then to three or four, so it's a really good opportunity for the photographer to maximize their time and get the most out of the shoot and the fee. It can work really well if the photographer is clever about how they allocate the money."

Nov 30, 2008 at 02:13 AM
thebmrust
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · Show me the $$$


Weddings
Sports T&I

Nov 30, 2008 at 03:06 AM
SkyStills
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · Show me the $$$


This isn't a bad photography job... only about a minute of work for decent pay.



This image is copyrighted by the owner




There are a few catches though.

Dave

Nov 30, 2008 at 04:19 AM
dan727
Offline
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #17 · Show me the $$$


Nathan Whitchu wrote:
Porn



hmmm I figured there would be tons of people out there clamoring to shoot that stuff for free.

Nov 30, 2008 at 05:48 AM
shatterkiss
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #18 · Show me the $$$


Edgar Maguyon wrote:
creative/post/license fees aside, doesnt most of the budget from a client or agency go into pre-production/production of a high-end editorial or commercial photoshoot? And only a small percentage of the money goes into the photogs pocket?

(ie: say a 50-100K budget including fees, maybe 10% of that will go into the photographers pocket with maybe some extra overhead/mark-up leftover money from the shoot if lucky; while the other 90%(or most of it anyways) go to pre-prod, crew, talent, artist collabs, rentals, permits, etc, etc.)


A photographer's net revenue isn't a percentage of the production budget or the "margin" created by marking up expense items on a major commercial shoot...generally it'll be a line item. You'll have your creative fee, your usage fees, then all of the production and logistics line items. Chances are you won't even have the opportunity to mark up those other line items, especially as more and more clients are employing cost consultants to keep those items under control. But your personal rate and the other budget line items aren't necessarily relative to each other.

Say you're hired to shoot a J.Crew catalogue. Maybe the rate is $4,500/day to you for a 5-day shoot, with an expectation of getting 15 shots per day for use in both print and web catalogues, but the contract specifies no additional usage fees beyond your rate unless the images are placed additionally. You might additionally submit a line-itemed budget that includes a shoot producer, location scout, 3 assistants, lighting and camera package rentals. The client supplies their own wardrobe stylists, hair and makeup, retouching and hires the models themselves. Then you've got the line items for T&E, air freight for gear, location transportation, RV for hair/makeup and changing, crafts services. They also have shipping and gear rental accounts, so that stuff gets billed directly to them. But all of those budget items are negotiated and set independently of your rate.

You may have the opportunity to charge for things that provide additional net revenue to you, like gear you already own or retouching services that can be provided by the staff of your own studio, but clients are frequently wise to it and may have contract terms that prevent it. On the other hand, I've heard of photographers getting hired to shoots like the above that also have a $500/day camera rental line item, then using both that and their own rate to fund the purchase of an H3D in order to avoid future rentals. Honestly, most of the big commercial shooters that I know of don't own much gear, even cameras, outside of stocking their own (often small) studios - why own when the clients are paying for rentals? I assisted one fashion and lifestyle shooter who owned maybe three Profoto heads and two old Pentax 67 bodies, a light meter, that was it. Everything for jobs was rented. He'd show up with the light meter, but usually his assistants used their own.

As far as marketing and reps/agencies doing most of that repping for you; wouldnt I/you(the photog) still have to spend a considerable amount of time and $$ to promote oneself towards these reps/agencies?

Not really. You spend several years of your career establishing yourself and your client base until you're earning a regular income, at which point you may become attractive to reps or agencies. If they take you on, it's to grow and supplement your business, not establish it. But it's unlikely that you're going to market yourself heavily to them - if you're working at that level you'll have the attention of the right people. They aren't going to work with you because of a persistent marketing campaign, they're going to work with you because of your reputation and balance sheets.

Nov 30, 2008 at 03:58 PM
Nathan Whitchu
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #19 · Show me the $$$


shatterkiss wrote:
Nathan Whitchu wrote:
Porn


Much less lucrative than you would think and involves relatively high up-front spending with no guarantee of return (unless you're contract shooting for an established outlet), much like shooting high-end stock. It's all about volume, so you will have spent quite a lot of money to create original content before you're able to attract even a small volume of subscribers.

.


stop ruining my dream damnit!

Nov 30, 2008 at 05:36 PM
Edgar Maguyon
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #20 · Show me the $$$


Much thanks for the insight simon.

But, if your "spending the first few years of your career establishing yourself", how will reps/agencies/editorial-art-directors even notice you? In other words, what would be the first baby steps for a "new photog" to get the foot in the door to these reps/agencies (once your web presence and portfolio are adequate)?

So your saying to get your foot in the door it comes from mostly from reputation and word of mouth from years of work.. versus direct promotion/calls/email blasts/hard promos, etc. to reps/agents/editors that have never heard of the photog?

Nov 30, 2008 at 09:48 PM
Brent Ward
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #21 · Show me the $$$


My understanding is that a good rep wants you to already have billing in the $200-
$300K a year range.

They want an immediate flow of cash to the them while they generate new business.



Nov 30, 2008 at 11:09 PM
shatterkiss
Offline
Dedicated FM
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #22 · Show me the $$$


Brent's got it totally right from everything I've heard and been told as well, including by reps. It's not their job to start your career, it's their job to take it to the next level: they want you to already be so busy that doing marketing/self-promo/sending out quotes is getting in the way of you actually doing the jobs. Then they'll come in and take over much of that responsibility so that you can double your billing or more (and they can take their percentage). Some reps will take over your entire client base, some might leave you with your existing clients and only focus on new clients.

Edgar Maguyon wrote:
But, if your "spending the first few years of your career establishing yourself", how will reps/agencies/editorial-art-directors even notice you?


If you're doing $300k/year in gross revenue in any given market then your name is bound to come up. You're also going to have noteworthy tearsheets.

If you landed a national campaign for Quicksilver, for instance, people are going to wonder who you are. They're going to call in your book, see what else you've done. If a rep sees that you aren't repped but you've done a number of big jobs recently, they may want to meet with you.

I've had art directors tell me that, while they look at every self-promo piece that photographers send them, they wait a year or more to call in a book - they want to see the photographer's growth over time and the consistency of their work. And then they wait another six months or year to call in the book again, just to see what's happened in the interim. Photographers that come to them as recommendations or referrals aren't in the same boat. Obviously doing the work is the best way to get more work.

In other words, what would be the first baby steps for a "new photog" to get the foot in the door to these reps/agencies (once your web presence and portfolio are adequate)?

By doing the work and landing the clients, then making them happy. All the web presence and portfolio in the world probably counts less than one art director dropping your name to another, mentioning that they hired you and you did a fantastic job.

So your saying to get your foot in the door it comes from mostly from reputation and word of mouth from years of work.. versus direct promotion/calls/email blasts/hard promos, etc. to reps/agents/editors that have never heard of the photog?

Traditional self-promo and marketing efforts may get art directors and potential clients to call in your book, which may in turn lead to work. But it won't lead to a rep. Landing those jobs consistently and executing them well may lead to a rep, though probably not right away.

Nov 30, 2008 at 11:54 PM
prof_fate
Offline
Dedicated FM
Account Locked
p.1 #23 · Show me the $$$


Well, if you can shoot commercial and own no gear, turn over the images to the company for PP/editing I suppose that certainly has the best ROI of any possible type of photography.
I'd also expect it's harder to get into as a primary, and as an employee of a photog you'll never get rich.

ROI for wedding and T&I photogs will be better than those with a studio as they need less gear/overhead to cover. I know what my studio is costiing me to outfit with lights, backgrounds, props, etc.

From some investigation into buying running, established studios there's no money in it. Those that I checked into (in 4 diferent states) all did seniors and other studio stuff (family, baby) and couple did a few weddings. All were generalist portrait studios. All had annual revenue in the 150-225 range and claimed no debt. All gear was included - props, lights, camera, computers - all of it. All had a space for sale as part of it or in addition (four of five had a house and property with teh studio in a seperate building). All claimed a full time photog, spouse and some part time seasonal help. all claimed an income of $40-60,000. But none had a mortgage. If you were buying the place yo'd have to pay the mortgage on the property as well as the purchase price of the business. NONE would allow you any income after the debt. Not a friggin dime.

The 'big name' speakers out there on PPA tours that are growing a business and preaching their way, some are local to me, all (independiently over a 2 year period) told me the same thing- expect to spend 10-15% of sales on marketing. That is to stay big, or get big and keep growing. If you are not growing you are dying. New photogs are entering the market all the time so you need to keep in front of people all the time. Especially in the case of some of these studios that are doing sales in the $2 million dollar range and have 10 empoyees.
But if your business grows to that point are you a photographer anymore? Or a manager or do you even bother to work?

Dec 01, 2008 at 06:37 AM
c.d.embrey
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #24 · Show me the $$$


ROI isn't every thing

Do you like what you do? I do! And the reason I do is that I don't shoot weddings, seniors, kids, pets or team sports. For me photography is making images, not being a salesman. So my interests are advertising and editorial. YMMV

As Dennis Bishop told me years ago "If you worked this hard on a real job, you'd be a millionaire!"

If you don't love your job, money means nothing.

Dec 01, 2008 at 07:25 PM
thebmrust
Offline
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #25 · Show me the $$$


Desire alone doesn't put food on the table.

Dec 01, 2008 at 10:00 PM




FM Forums | Pro Digital Corner | Join Upload & Sell
1
2 end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

  Username   Password  
Lost your password?