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Archive 2008 · best file type and settings for print?

  
 
jeff lehmkuhl
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p.1 #1 · best file type and settings for print?


Hey all-

I tried searching for an answer to this but had a really hard time trying to nail anything down.

So...I was wondering what you all think is the best file type to save images in for large prints, as in 20" x 20" or so? JPEG or TIFF? what bit rate, if it matters? Any other setting that I should be aware of to get the most out of my prints?

Thank you all and the info is much appreciated.
Jeff



Nov 23, 2008 at 02:05 AM
Bifurcator
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p.1 #2 · best file type and settings for print?


DNG or RAW. Not JPeg for suretho JPeg 2000 16bit lossless would be OK.

Bit rate? There is no "bit rate" ... is there?

If you mean bit depth then 12-bit RAW, 14-bit RAW (whichever your camera produces) or 16-bit DNG with embedded RAW.






Nov 23, 2008 at 04:17 AM
mrladewig
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p.1 #3 · best file type and settings for print?


If you have the source pixels, then printing a 20X30 from jpeg is no problem. If you have to use bicubic resampling to upsize to the print size, then jpeg risks losing useful details.

If you choose jepg, you will be limited to an 8-bit file.

A better option if you have your own printer and it is a newer model is to save in 16 bit. At that point .tif, .psd, jpeg2000, .dng and a few others are available.

I would recommend .psd or .tif. The .psd format is a lossless compressed 16bit format that supports layers. Tif also has a lossless compression option available but I don't know what it is.

Finally the colorspace of the file matters. ProPhoto RGB is a very wide space, Adobe is the middle space and sRGB is the most narrow space (of the common color spaces used by photographers). ProPhoto RGB will contain colors that your monitor and printer cannot reproduce, but you are unlikely to clip a color in this space. Adobe RGB can usually be covered by most printers and it seems to be a good working space.



Nov 23, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Eyeball
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p.1 #4 · best file type and settings for print?


How are you going to make these prints?

I ask because, as the other posters have alluded to, you really need to start there in determining what limitations and options the chosen printing process will give you.

There are labs that will only accept Jpegs in the sRGB colorspace, for example. If that is the case, worrying about 16-bit, TIFFs, and the rest is just going to be a waste of time.

Keep in mind also that how you intend the large print to be viewed will also guide you in terms of how meticulous you need to be with color, resolution, and quality in general. If it is a detailed landscape, for example, and the viewers will be able to view the print from a distance and then get close to the print to see every detail, then it is probably worth spending the time and money to get the highest quality possible.

If the print is going to have less detail, possibly a portrait for example, or if the viewer is going to be physically restricted from viewing the print up close, then you may be able to get by with less time and investment.



Nov 23, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Mr Mouse
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p.1 #5 · best file type and settings for print?


jeff lehmkuhl wrote:
Hey all-

I tried searching for an answer to this but had a really hard time trying to nail anything down.

Your having a hard time for there is not a single correct answer.

So...I was wondering what you all think is the best file type to save images in for large prints, as in 20" x 20" or so? JPEG or TIFF? what bit rate, if it matters? Any other setting that I should be aware of to get the most out of my prints?

What adds to you problem is you lack of basic digital image processing knowledge. Your bit rate reference shows this lack of knowledge you were most thinking about image resolution and used a wrong term. Bit rate is more or less meaningless with still images. Bit Rate is a flow type thing bandwidth. When you need to worry about flow many things need to be considered many trade-offs need to be made with video and audio because of available bandwidth and process power required and real-time constraints. Still Image processing is much easier.

Thank you all and the info is much appreciated.
Jeff


Jeff

First thing is if you value the image you want to archive your Digital Negative. This is whatever came out of you camera. The only allowable updating to these files IMO is adding additional metadata information. If you shoot RAW programs like Adobe Bridge will rewrite RAW files with Update Meta Data. Data like Image Title, Caption, Notes, Copyright notice etc . You want to save this because Image Processing software of the future will be better then what we have today.

Today you need decide on how you will be using your images. Most likely you will be using them in several way. Printing, E-mail, Web publishing, Electronic display Computers, Digital Frame, TV via DVD or memory device. Because of this you will need to produce image files for the intended use. There are many questions the need to be ask and answered for each use. For printing who will be doing the printing if not yourself you need to know what the printer want and supports. No single answer. If you want a single answer all commercial printers will be able to print Jpeg Images with sRGB color profiles. They will also mess with you image. They will crop them to the aspect ratio of the image ordered may adjust colors. Many Lab let you write special printing instruction like don't crop. You full image will be printed to fit on the paper prints will have uneven white space if you images do not have the same aspect ratio as the prints ordered. You can even download custom printer profiles for Csotco printers and convert the color to their color space and include instruction not to color correct.. You need to produce file the will satisfy the intended use device requirement.

When in doubt Produce a Jpeg sRGB with the maximun number of Pixels your camera is capable of for printing. For all other uses the same image resampled down in size for the intended use.



Nov 23, 2008 at 12:33 PM
jeff lehmkuhl
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p.1 #6 · best file type and settings for print?


So, bit rate was wrong and bit depth was what I intended...obviously I have a fair bit to learn here, otherwise I would not be asking these questions.

I will be using an espon stylus for printing. Not sure which model as it's not mine. It's a friends printer and I will be using it when I get to the point of printing. I am asking these questions because I want to start printing photos to put up places around town and sell them if possible. So, the reason why I am so concerned with not losing any file info from saving as JPEG and then reworking and saving again, etc is because I recently saw a large print of a landscape here in town that was going for $1500 unframed, and I could see the pixelation in the shot. It was probably the worst quality print I have ever seen and refuse to ever try and push off such crap on people myself. Even if I was printing wallet sized prints, I would want them to look as nice as possible. Call it pride, call it whatever, but I think that people doing what that photographer I saw here did is just wrong and it makes everyone looking to call themselves a photographer bad.



Nov 23, 2008 at 06:09 PM
Tomagado
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p.1 #7 · best file type and settings for print?


My process, if helpful to you (excluding backups):

Shoot RAW.
Convert to 16bit Tiff in aRGB with ACR or C1PRO (ACR is fast and easy, C1PRO for the best)
Edit.
Leave one master file with all layers in 16bit Tiff _ unsharpened _
Create flattened file and sharpen for intended print size, save as highest quality jpeg and send to WHCC.
WHCC accepts aRGB files now, and creates stunning images from the jpegs.

Just don't open that last jpeg and edit anything or re-save, you'll only be slowly deteriorating image quality.

I haven't spent enough time looking at the ProPhoto colorspace, but will have to take a good look at it soon.

Cheers,
Thomas



Nov 23, 2008 at 06:18 PM
jeff lehmkuhl
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p.1 #8 · best file type and settings for print?


Thanks Thomas...that's exactly the type of info I am looking for!


Nov 23, 2008 at 07:06 PM
Mr Mouse
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p.1 #9 · best file type and settings for print?


jeff lehmkuhl wrote:
So, bit rate was wrong and bit depth was what I intended...obviously I have a fair bit to learn here, otherwise I would not be asking these questions.

When you create the print file bit depth 8 is all you currently need for device divers and printers these days only support 8 bit. This may change in the future. It only makes sense to edit in 16 bit mode if you shoot RAW. Jpeg only supports 8 bit mode if you shoot Jpeg the Camera has convert the RAW 12 or 14 Bit mosaic image into a 8 bit RGB image. While you can convert from 8 bit to 16 bit you do not regain the colors the was lost when the camera convert the RAW data into an 8 Bit RGB image. Below you talk about pixelation as I stated in my previous append you most likely thinking about Resolution how many pixels you ave and what print DPI should you print at. The other thing you should learn about if you shoot RAW is Color Space since you will be printing the images yourself you need to learn what model Epson your friend has so you can find out it color capabilities. If it has a wide gamut wider the sRGB when you convert your RAW file into an RGB Image you should consider using 16 bit mode and either Adobe RGB color space or ProPhoto RGB Color space. You also need to learn about Printing. You need to know what paper you will be using you will also need a ICC color profile for that Printer/Ink/Paper combination. And you need to learn how to set the correct print settings. Have Photoshop Manage the color Turn off the Print Driver Color management as set the correct Paper in the Print Driver and Photoshop and Printer Profile in Photoshop Print Dialog. If you want to make further edits in the future start with your digital negative or also save a 16 bit Layer PSD file before creating the print file.

I will be using an espon stylus for printing. Not sure which model as it's not mine. It's a friends printer and I will be using it when I get to the point of printing. I am asking these questions because I want to start printing photos to put up places around town and sell them if possible. So, the reason why I am so concerned with not losing any file info from saving as JPEG and then reworking and saving again, etc is because I recently saw a large print of a landscape here in town that was going for
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Nov 23, 2008 at 11:39 PM
floris
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p.1 #10 · best file type and settings for print?


There is one key step that is often overlooked IMO, that is to add grain before printing... before we get there a few other tips:

A few notes: always process in 16-bit and prophoto for maximal image quality, there are many posts on this with lots of good info. aRGB is good for most purposes, but there's no reason not to use prophoto. Epson drivers now support 16-bit, so if you're printing to a friends epson, just give him a 16-bit file. Though I doubt you'd notice a difference if you converted to 8-bit.

Regarding sharpening: I do most of my sharpening viewing my original image at 100%, then I upsize to my output. For judging your output for an inkjet print, view it at 50% (this simulates the inkjet process well for some reason). I'll often do a little touch up sharpening after upsizing. I find this is more efficient and just as good in terms of IQ as sharpening after upsizing (disclaimer: I've only printed up to 20x30in off of 8-12MP files).

Regarding size: first, note the difference between dpi and ppi. ppi is the number of pixels per inch in your file. dpi is the number of dots per inch the printer puts out. Always use 2880 dpi or higher (as high as your paper/printer allows) for maximum quality. Regarding ppi, for epson inkjets anything over 180 is fine, again, discussed at length in other posts. So upsize your image to the right dimensions with at least 180 ppi. (suppose you're at 140 dpi, it's best to exactly double when possible, so go to 280 dpi in one step in the bicubic sharpener in PS). Now, I do this a little differently.. because the next step is IMO the most overlooked and very important for nice natural images, and works better if you always use the same ppi..... so I upsize to exactly 360 ppi for my epson output (this is epson's recommended ppi, and I like the way the prints come out).

Adding Grain - the magic step: any upsized digital image (big enlargements mostly) will have artifacts, if you used noise reduction it will look plasticky, else there will be pixely noise, sharpening edges, etc. It won't look pretty close up. You can't do much about that (except buy a more expensive camera or print smaller), but you can hide it.. create a new layer in overlay mode with 50% gray fill, add 400% gaussian monochromatic noise, then apply a 0.7px gaussian blur (numbers approx, these work for me). Now set the opacity to taste. For smooth skies etc. try 8%, for highly textured scenes like forests try 15-30%. Of course, layer masks are quite useful here. Now, since I want to know what the effect this noise will have on the output I always print at the same ppi as noted above, that way I control the grain size and it's the same every time. The effect of the grain is very subtle from a distance, but close up it makes the image look less digital and more film/natural. It creates the illusion of added detail.. and who wouldn't want that?! Always apply grain last, after upsizing to final printing size, after sharpening, etc. it's the very last step.






Nov 24, 2008 at 03:06 AM
mrladewig
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p.1 #11 · best file type and settings for print?


jeff lehmkuhl wrote:
I recently saw a large print of a landscape here in town that was going for $1500 unframed, and I could see the pixelation in the shot. It was probably the worst quality print I have ever seen and refuse to ever try and push off such crap on people myself.


First of all, asking $1500 for a lousy print does not mean that you'll get $1500 for such a print. Landscape photography is an incredibly competitive field. That applies to ALL photographic fields.

At the same time, alot of buyers might not care that the image has technical flaws if the image speaks to them and will look nice above the couch. That is a large sum of money, but there are many landscape photographers who sell at a much higher price point.

Honestly, if your intent is to make truly giant prints with honest detail, then you'll need to learn to capture much larger than a 35mm (digital or not) can provide. If you look into the galleries of larger format photographers like Tom Till, Peter Lik and Michael Fatali (cringe), they are capturing their images on large format or larger medium format film (6X6, 6X7, 6X9). With the larger capture format they can provide enlargements with good detail in truly large sizes like 40"X50". Medium format digital will also get you there on quality, but the cost of entry is quite high. Stitched 35mm digital might also work sometimes, but there will often be situations where it can't work.

The thing about this is that all of these formats have a steeper learning curve than just picking up a digital slr and choosing a good lens.

Your second post expanded this into a MUCH larger topic than your original question.

Since you've provided some additional detail regarding the actual printer you'll be using.

You'll be best off working in 16bit if you can.

I disagree regarding the suitability for ProphotoRGB workspace for ALL images. Since your monitor cannot display all colors in ProphotoRGB (it can't even display all of Adobe RGB) and your printer cannot print all colors in ProphotoRGB, I think there are some situations where it is a risky working space. AdobeRGB has worked well for me in actual prints.

I also disagree about arbitrary addition of digital "grain" to enlargements. It may help deceive the eye so that you'll believe there is detail and you'll believe there are no posterization artifacts and no re-sampling artifacts. But it is not a good solution when you want the smooth continuous tones that digital capture can provide and I don't think that it is a positive addition in skies. It falls into the "it depends" category and its a gimmick to trick the eye. If you can truly capture the detail the results will standout.

Ultimately to make large prints from any format, you're going to have to face a steep learning curve and you'll need some experience making your own prints. You'll need to have your own desktop printer so that you can check samples of your prints along the way. I copy a section (8X10) of the file to print on a letter sheet at 100% to see how the file will look printed from the larger printer. I would recommend that you look at buying a 13" printer of your own to gain some experience with printing before you try going to a large size.

As for myself, I've sold some prints at 16X20 and 20X30. I've sold alot at 11X14, 10X15 or 12X18. I've made some of these prints from my 8MP and some from my 4X5 camera. I've put alot of time into learning to print and learning to scan film and learning how to work effectively in photoshop.



Nov 24, 2008 at 02:05 PM





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