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Marty Bingham Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #1 · Tell the Truth....... We are thinking of getting five or ten view stations next spring for baseball and softball tournament coverage. We will take onsite orders but no printing. We would like to hear from those with first hand experience with a smallish set up like this. Or maybe you know someone who tried it and succeeded or failed. Did it pay off or fall flat? Or maybe something in between......... For efficency's sake let's assume we get the location and marketing right Oh yeah, let's also assume that I have hit the search button. I know this has been discussed before but I am looking for some fresh input. Thanks in advance, Marty Nov 20, 2008 at 07:01 PM

Hammy Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #2 · Tell the Truth....... Onsite vs Online sales increase = 500+% to be able to sell onsite as opposed to online only. Onsite printing vs Not printing = 0% difference. Yes, I've done all the above - though rarely ever done online only sales. Others that do exactly as I do experience that loss though (1/5th the sales). I used to print onsite - wanted to be the all inclusive vendor - taking care of them for all their needs onsite - not later. Did that for two years - thinking that prints walking around was my marketing. Then, unexpectedly, I had to stop printing (my main printer went into the hospital for two events) What I noticed: less staff to pay, house, feed - less gear to bring, setup, maintain, pack - less consumables to take. No worry about setting it all back up in the office, or environmental printing conditions onsite or having customers wait at the end of a show with orders stacked up (we used to d0 3000-4000 prints at a show). More importantly, I saw NO difference in sales - not even a little bit. In the past 4 years, I think there have been 4-5 customers who did not place an order once they found out we weren't printing onsite. I even offer free shipping onsite as an incentive - for which shipping costs are always less than the cost of that extra staffing would have cost. Since then, I take more gear that sells more: viewstations and marketing, not prints. Yes, it's true, that I happen to do largish events with 10,000 competitors per day, but smallish works too. Location and marketing are certainly important - to know to come to you. Most importantly is having your workflow (availability and organization, finding and browsing, checkout and paying) capable of matching (or bettering) your customer flow . Can you handle the crowds with 5 stations when they show up - or do you need 10? or 100? Good luck, Hammy. Nov 20, 2008 at 07:47 PM

Marty Bingham Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #3 · Tell the Truth....... Thanks Hammy. There's an old saying about "If you want to know how to climb a mountain ask someone who's been to the top." You are certainly the guru of onsite sales. I have followed your posts for a couple years now and you have been unwaivering in your solid advice. Thanks for your detailed response. How about any small timers like myself. Go or No Go? Marty Nov 21, 2008 at 01:45 AM

Zander Alberts Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #4 · Tell the Truth....... I have run a few events with a similar setup, with an without printing but with onsite viewing... I personally like the onsite printing if you are busy because you can get it all out of the way at the time the order is placed. But if the images need any kind of post, I would not print on site. I tried taking orders, doing post on each and then printing - it was a nightmare... an absolute traffic jam of orders and took waaay too long. SO, I think it depends on the size of the event, the nature of the photos and how many other things you have going on. Nov 21, 2008 at 03:29 AM

P Alesse Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #5 · Tell the Truth....... I'd be more apt to research the logistics of the events you want to take on BEFORE researching the viewstations themselves. Yes, Hammy's model succeeds on all levels because the model itself is conducive to the setup he employs. IE... the planets all line up correctly and he markets effectively to that. Put OZ back in Kansas though and things could turn back to black and white. Softball and baseball as opposed to cheer and gymnastics is a different set of logistics. Many more escape points. Less down time. More opportunities for kids to play and go home. A little longer firewire. Bad hot dogs. You name it. On top of that, you have all the potential nightmares of running a setup in an outdoor environment. Bottom line is that I would't invest in viewstations automatically just because it's supposed to increase sales. It may increase sales, but at what cost? Ideally, you'd want 100% of your athletes and/or parents to sit down at your stations, find photos quickly, make purchases quickly and be on there merry way. At what % out of 100 does it become a wash? 50% coming to you? 25% coming to you? To up those percentages you have to look back to my first sentence of the post. To me that is paramount in the decision on whether to invest or not. For the record, we have onsite viewstations and choose to use them at select events. Gymnastics, swimming... it makes sense logistically. Large baseball, softball, soccer... doesn't make sense. We do use them at regionals for baseball and softball, that's for certain. But because and only because, the nature and importance of the event, plus the planned logistics work out perfectly. All players stay in a hotel and we are setup in one of the main ballrooms next to the indoor swimming pool, game room, and bar. Yes... bar. It's hub of activity and all during the end of the day from 4 PM till midight where the kids are done playing and every kid with their family is hanging out next to our setup. Nov 21, 2008 at 03:59 AM

Rocketball Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #6 · Tell the Truth....... Just a few of my thoughts since I do tournament photography and have a daughter that plays in them as well. Paul's idea of setting up at night in a hotel ballroom for sales is an interesting approach, but I can tell you as a parent, it would only work at select tournaments. Most tournaments that my daughter's fastpitch team enters in the Mid-Atlantic region are so large that the teams are spread out over numerous hotels. When we get back to our hotel after being in the heat and sun for 10-12 hours, the last thing we would want to do is shlep over to another hotel to look at pictures....... Just my opion. As a parent, I also do not look for on site sales or printing (this may be due to me being a photographer though). I have seen it done, but the logistics can be overwhelming. Many tournament sites don't have toilet facilities, so don't even expect electricity to run you viewing stations. Also looking at lcd monitors outside in daylight (even under a tent) is difficult at best. Nov 21, 2008 at 02:55 PM

Hammy Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #7 · Tell the Truth....... P Alesse wrote: I'd be more apt to research the logistics of the events you want to take on BEFORE researching the viewstations themselves. ... ... We do use them at regionals for baseball and softball, that's for certain. But because and only because, the nature and importance of the event, plus the planned logistics work out perfectly. Paul makes complete sense here. I have to scale my view down to the level that Marty is talking about - and when I do, Paul's issues hold very true. For me, events: - with no concentration of customer flow - aren't national prize winning titles - that have too few competitors (and therefore customers) - require too many photographers I don't do. It's a simple business decision. The same business decision any business would make. Walmart, McDonalds, ... any successful business model would not open a store in a market that won't make them money. Same for the photography level - if one is covering an event for the prestige, glory, fun at being there - then chalk it up to a hobby and know it will cost money. Otherwise, if one thinks there is money to be made, then efficiency, marketing and sales model are key. That's why I won't cover a massive soccer tournament over multiple complexes that requires many photographers and multiple booths to achieve sales - via my model. If it was pay-for-shoot or had massive web marketing and could be done with minimal paid staff (shooters) then it might turn a dime. But as Paul said - each case needs to be looked at. I know that my model works for what I do - but I achieve success mostly through numbers. It's rare that I do events with less than 1000 competitors - because it gets hard to hire great shooters, fly them in, feed them, house them and still try to recoup all the expenses from sales. But when I do 2000-3000 competitors per events - even with multiple events simultaneously - that's my sweet spot for maximizing revenue based on required staff. So take Paul's advice on the short stuff - he knows it well because he's been there (whereas my first event was 2000 competitors - so my thoughts are biased toward that thinking) I do think that if you can achieve the issues that Paul discusses: concentration of customers, enviromental conditions, workflow and a viable market, then onsite sales will be massively more successful - no matter the scale. But without getting close to ideal conditions - it will remain challenging to turn tax deductions into positive numbers on the schedule C. Hammy. Nov 21, 2008 at 07:31 PM

Marty Bingham Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #8 · Tell the Truth....... I appreciate everyone who has taken time to answer! We are looking at a half dozen or so tournaments of 25 to 30 teams during baseball/softball season and a couple marching band competitions with upwards of 1500 participants. Probably not worth the investment right now. I will give it some more thought. Thanks, Marty Nov 21, 2008 at 08:12 PM

Mike Mahoney Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #9 · Tell the Truth....... snaptie2002 wrote: I appreciate everyone who has taken time to answer! We are looking at a half dozen or so tournaments of 25 to 30 teams during baseball/softball season and a couple marching band competitions with upwards of 1500 participants. Probably not worth the investment right now. I will give it some more thought. Thanks, Marty The only investment in onsite infrastructure worth making for us were samples and order forms. We went down the onsite viewing & printing road and found it a lot of expense and work. We went down the online sales road and found it a waste of time. So we focus on making the sale during the tournament and fulfilling the orders later on, and we have lots of samples and make it easy for customers to order. We shoot nothing on spec, all orders are prepaid. Our sales desk is a thing of beauty .. full of mounted and framed prints, collages, and posters from previous years. To see them is to buy them FWIW the tournaments you describe (25-30 teams) would be very profitable for me. Just don't make it hard on yourself by trying to do too much onsite during the tournament .. for a start just stick to two things, shooting & selling. Bonne chance. Nov 21, 2008 at 09:04 PM

Marty Bingham Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #10 · Tell the Truth....... Thanks Mike. Sounds like good advice based on experience. Marty Nov 23, 2008 at 04:11 AM

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