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Gordon walker Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #1 · Help with sharper/better photos Okay, first time poster here. I shoot mostly soccer (kids play) and am continually frustrated by the quality of most of my photos. I'm considering buying a 300 f4 or the Sigma 120-300 2.8 (used). Is it me, or the lens I'm using that needs upgrading? Gear: Canon 40D, 70-200 2.8 L IS, with and without a 1.4X extender (extended range is just bad). Normal settings: 5.6-6.3, 800-1250, 100 or 250 iso. I shoot everything RAW and with AWB or sunlight setting Nothing is really sharp outside 10-15 yards away, probably is the 70-100 range. Cropping - forget about it I'm getting the feeling this is a great short range lens and I need something else. Here are the best of my latest attempts (top 50 of 500+) and I am providing links as opposed to wasting upload space. These were all shot at iso 250 without the extender, which improves things. http://picasaweb.google.com/walkergetx/SCFC94WhiteVSBJays# http://picasaweb.google.com/walkergetx/SCFC94WhiteVGCFury# Any and all comments/suggestions are welcome on anything. If you just like looking at soccer pics and want to critique content, that would be appreciated too. I've put 5-6000 actuations on my D40 this fall and I seem to have hit a quality peak. Nov 19, 2008 at 03:18 PM

Russ Isabella Online Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #2 · Help with sharper/better photos Gordon: Welcome. You're in the right place for learning to become a better sports photographer. I looked at just a few of your shots. Definitely enough there to suggest you're on the right track. In some cases, nothing's in focus. It other cases, something in the background (car bumper, for example) has grabbed focus. And some of your photos look to be spot-on. So that tells you your equipment is capable of very good shots. 1. Shoot in AI Servo mode. 2. Use center point for focus. 3. Be sure to lock onto and track your subject prior to taking the shot. This gives the camera's AF system time to do what it has to do to give you a sharp shot. 4. Many sports shooters move focus control to the back * button. You might want to give this a try, as for many, separating focus from shutter release leads to improvement (doesn't work for everyone, but it's worth a try). 5. I recommend that you set your aperture at its widest, f/2.8. Either you nail the shot or you don't, but at least when you do the buildings in the background won't be in focus as much as your target subject. Isolation of subject from background is key to a great shot, so that's what you should be aiming for. 6. Keep in mind that good post-processing often is as important as starting with a good shot. 7. For outdoor shooting, I recommend AV mode, where you set your aperture (f/2.8) and your ISO and let the camera decide on shutter speed. In this case you'll want to set your ISO high enough so that even if there are clouds, you'll still have a fast enough shutter speed to stop the action (shooting at f/2.8 will help you to keep your ISO lower than it otherwise would have to be). 8. Watch your horizons. Many of them are not straight and often, that's a distraction to those viewing the photo. 9. Watch your backgrounds. Whenever possible, situate yourself to minimize the distractions of awful backgrounds. Shooting at f/2.8 will help with this as it will throw more distant background clutter out of focus. Keep shooting. And you might consider posting with a few of what you consider your best photos directly embedded in the post. Along with that, provide more information about how you're shooting (settings, for example, in addition to equipment). That will allow folks to give you more specific and perhaps more relevant feedback....good luck! Nov 19, 2008 at 03:43 PM

wfournier Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #3 · Help with sharper/better photos You don't say what AF mode you are using, for sports and moving action Servo should keep things in focus. I haven't used one as I am using Nikon gear, but the 70-200 L is a very good lens, and I find it hard to blame these results on the lens unless you have a lemon. Opening up the lens to f2.8 or 3.2 should clean up the backgrounds a lot and also let you increase the SS. I would look into you technique before going for a new lens, if you can't find anything there have the lens checked out. Have you used the 70-200 in other situations with static subjects? Maybe try putting it on a tripod and shooting something that doesn't move and see if you get sharp pictures. Nov 19, 2008 at 03:50 PM

pixNW Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #4 · Help with sharper/better photos I shot youth football this past season, and primarily used a 70-200 2.L IS. I'm still learning, and really enjoying it, but in my opinion that lens is very capable of delivering high quality images. I think you did a great job of catching some action and emotion in your shots. Russ was right about many shots having focus locked onto something other than the intended subject. That's just a matter of perfecting your technique. You obviously have a good eye for subject matter. I really like shooting youth sports in AV mode. There are times where I want a little more in focus, such as when there are several players with good expressions that you want to see. It's pretty easy to change the Ap from 2.8 to 5.6 fairly quickly if one of those situations is developing. Having potentially distracting backgrounds out of focus really makes for a better shot, in my opinion. Unlike games played in big venues where you have stands full of spectators that can look cool somewhat in focus, it seems like with youth sports you're more likely to have a car or parking lot, lawn chair, etc. Have your small athlete get out in the yard or a park with you and move at game speeds. Put your camera on AI servo and practice tracking and shooting. You'll pick it up pretty quickly with some practice. Next year you'll end up with some wall hangers, guaranteed. Nov 19, 2008 at 04:14 PM

trenchmonkey Online Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #5 · Help with sharper/better photos Shoot wide open or f3.2 turn off IS and take off the filter (if using one) I shot dog agility competitions with that combo and the keepers exceeded 90% Practice, practice, and more practice will git 'er done 9x out of 10. Don't try to focus and recompose. GL! Nov 19, 2008 at 04:21 PM

Mark Peters Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #6 · Help with sharper/better photos In addition to everything mentioned above - if you have not done so already - turn off the IS so that that "brain" doesn't interpret your intentional movement of the lens as camera shake and attempt to compensate. Your shutter speed is high enough to counter any camera shake. You have also discovered, as many have, the extenders work alot better on primes than they do on zooms. I will slightly disagree with Russ on one point. Until you get your technique down, I would not open up completely to 2.8. Wide open on virtually any lens is where it is softest. Stopping down to 3.2 - 3.5 or even 4.0, will give you a margin of error on the DOF, without completely ruining your backgrounds - especially if you wait for the action to be close enough to fill the frame. Shooting across the field, whether at 2.8 or 5.6, your DOF will be huge. Nov 19, 2008 at 04:24 PM

John Korduner Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #7 · Help with sharper/better photos It's just a matter of practice. I started in the middle of baseball season last year, but chose a rebel and a 300 f/4 over the 40d 70-200. Virtually my entire baseball season mirrored your soccer pics. This fall I upgraded to the 40D and a 70-200, and it's far more forgiving. the 300 is a great lens...but only on sunny days. You have to keep moving about with the 70-200, but you begin to get a feel for the camera and lens' capability. But after a while you'll continue to see dramatic improvement. I took this one last night, and the lighting was the worst I've yet to experience. Manual, 200mm, ISO1600, f/2.8, f/500. I think a bball court's 92 ft long, so this is at least 25yds away, proving the lens is capable of taking sharp pictures at 200mm with good light. Nov 19, 2008 at 04:33 PM

Beau Arnold Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #8 · Help with sharper/better photos Russ Isabella wrote: Gordon: Welcome. You're in the right place for learning to become a better sports photographer. I looked at just a few of your shots. Definitely enough there to suggest you're on the right track. In some cases, nothing's in focus. It other cases, something in the background (car bumper, for example) has grabbed focus. And some of your photos look to be spot-on. So that tells you your equipment is capable of very good shots. 1. Shoot in AI Servo mode. 2. Use center point for focus. 3. Be sure to lock onto and track your subject prior to taking the shot. This gives the camera's AF system time to do what it has to do to give you a sharp shot. 4. Many sports shooters move focus control to the back * button. You might want to give this a try, as for many, separating focus from shutter release leads to improvement (doesn't work for everyone, but it's worth a try). 5. I recommend that you set your aperture at its widest, f/2.8. Either you nail the shot or you don't, but at least when you do the buildings in the background won't be in focus as much as your target subject. Isolation of subject from background is key to a great shot, so that's what you should be aiming for. 6. Keep in mind that good post-processing often is as important as starting with a good shot. 7. For outdoor shooting, I recommend AV mode, where you set your aperture (f/2.8) and your ISO and let the camera decide on shutter speed. In this case you'll want to set your ISO high enough so that even if there are clouds, you'll still have a fast enough shutter speed to stop the action (shooting at f/2.8 will help you to keep your ISO lower than it otherwise would have to be). 8. Watch your horizons. Many of them are not straight and often, that's a distraction to those viewing the photo. 9. Watch your backgrounds. Whenever possible, situate yourself to minimize the distractions of awful backgrounds. Shooting at f/2.8 will help with this as it will throw more distant background clutter out of focus. Keep shooting. And you might consider posting with a few of what you consider your best photos directly embedded in the post. Along with that, provide more information about how you're shooting (settings, for example, in addition to equipment). That will allow folks to give you more specific and perhaps more relevant feedback....good luck! Russ this about sums it up for a sports shooter. Thanks Nov 19, 2008 at 06:37 PM

Il Medico Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #9 · Help with sharper/better photos I have the same combo, minus the IS on the lens. After several seasons of U6 and U8 soccer and some swimming I've found that the AI Servo performance of the 40D is kind of mediocre. It can be very good or it can be so-so or on a few occasions it can just plain suck for no apparent reason. I think your results (based on the few I looked at) are what you can expect out of that gear. I get a fair amount keepers, shots that I rate at 2 or 3, shots that I could likely get away with making an 8x10 out of. That's the majority of my shots. The next most in terms of numbers are the throw aways or shots that I rate at 1, that I keep and are suitable for looking at on the monitor in small sizes. I get only a small percentage of shots that I rate at 4 or 5. Shots that when viewed at 100% are as sharp as I know the lens is capable of. These are fairly rare in occurance. So your results are normal IMO. Some additional PPing can make them look better. I adjust(light, color, contrast, saturation), crop, straighten, sharpen and run NR on all the shots I intend to keep. As for the Sigma 120-300. I have one and it's going into repair for the third time in 3 months. It won't even track a person walking straight towards it. Keep practicing and shooting. Gene Nov 19, 2008 at 07:22 PM

DannWunderlich Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #10 · Help with sharper/better photos there is nothing that i can say that russ didnt cover except that the 120-300 is 100% capable of getting good SHARP shots she does have her days but i use and love her very much search 120-300 and you will find a few threads in here -Dann Nov 19, 2008 at 08:16 PM

Gordon walker Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #11 · Help with sharper/better photos Wow. Great responses. Thanks, especially to Russ. That's more thorough than I had hoped for. I do use the "*" to focus and yes, it's far better than the shutter button, IMO. I do use the center point focus. I was using AI Focus and will try AI servo. Now if I push and hold the "*", it locks on? I'm usually wearing wearing out my thumb trying to keep up. Try AV? I guess I was trying to be the manual pro. I will try it. I was using 2.8 for everything, but shutter speeds were far faster than I felt I needed, and I thought that was part of the problem. Things seemed to have improved since going to 5.6-6.3. Hmmmm. Thanks on the content suggestions too. I couldn't put my finger on it, but the horizon issue is it, spot on. Also, and as everyone one guessed, no PP. I certainly know the value of shooting RAW and play a lot with WB, color and sharpness, but posting that didn't seem to jive with the question I posed. Lots to try. Thanks again. Edited on Nov 19, 2008 at 09:11 PM · View previous versions Nov 19, 2008 at 09:08 PM

mikekel Offline Upload & Sell: On p.1 #12 · Help with sharper/better photos Other thoughts - walk the field while shooting or pick a zone where you want to get shots if you are using the 70-200. You just can't cover the field with that lens without moving with the game and soccer is tough. I usually focus on shooting certain positions and walking the field during the game. You said you shoot raw but your files on the link are JPG. Do the jpegs look worse than the raw files? I've hit issues with compression before without realizing it. Converting RAW to jpeg, then putting the jpeg's into a slideshow program sometimes has more compression, and then posting them to the web did it again. I'm not a huge fan of Picassa, you might try posting on another site and see if there is any difference. You might enjoy the Sigma 80-400 lens if you are shooting outdoor sports. It's not 2.8 but don't think that will be an issue, especially if you bump the ISO. Nov 19, 2008 at 09:09 PM

Justin Huffman Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: On p.1 #13 · Help with sharper/better photos what is your meter set to, matrix spot etc etc. All the images look about a stop underexposed. Might be my laptop but it is calibrated so.... Nov 19, 2008 at 09:15 PM

John Patrick Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #14 · Help with sharper/better photos Gordon walker wrote: I was using AI Focus and will try AI servo. Bingo. Here's the culprit. AI Focus just plain sucks. I don't know why Canon has it on there cameras. Forget it exists. AI Servo for sports, period. Now if I push and hold the "*", it locks on? I'm usually wearing wearing out my thumb trying to keep up. You know you're a sports shooter when you have a large callous on your right thumb from smashing the * button. I was using 2.8 for everything, but shutter speeds were far faster than I felt I needed, and I thought that was part of the problem. Things seemed to have improved since going to 5.6-6.3. Hmmmm. I puzzle about how fast shutter speeds would make things worse? What happened since going to f/5.6-6.3 is that your DOF got a lot LOT bigger, and then when you mis-focused, your subject was still in that range. Thanks on the content suggestions too. I couldn't put my finger on it, but the horizon issue is it, spot on. You can try to shoot perfect horizons in camera, or just do what the rest of us do 95% of the time: fix it in post! Also, and as everyone one guessed, no PP. I certainly know the value of shooting RAW and play a lot with WB, color and sharpness, but posting that didn't seem to jive with the question I posed. Lots to try. Thanks again. No reason to shoot sports RAW (at least, I don't). If you want to, fine, but that's another layer of PP that I'd rather not mess with. Get exposure and WB right in camera, and you'll never need to use RAW. John Nov 19, 2008 at 10:12 PM

Gordon walker Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #15 · Help with sharper/better photos Justin, I cheat to the underexposed side because it seems to clean up better than a tad overexposed. Obviously, the goal is to be spot on. John, I don't set the white balance specifically every time I shoot. I use the sun setting and I get much better final results being able to adjust the WB just a tad in PP. AI Servo, it is. Nov 19, 2008 at 10:42 PM

gtjohnson Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #16 · Help with sharper/better photos Gordon, Quick question - are these shots straight out of the camera or did you zoom/crop them before posting? The reason I ask is that if you are not filling your frame with the subject, the image will appear softer when you zoom in and crop. It's simple math - the larger the subject in your image, the more pixels are used to display it (and the sharper the image). Your issue may be a combination of many, any, or none of the possibilities mentioned before me or it could simply be that you're not filling the frame with the subject. Shoot tight. It's more challenging, but the rewards are great. Here are two pics that demonstrate what I'm talking about. 1) talk about your level horizons ... yikes! This is a typical shot I would take before the wonderful people of this forum showed me the light. Nicely focused ... other than some substantial straightening - it is a shot I would have been proud of - until I cropped it and saw how soft it appeared. 2) here is the logo on her uniform cropped to size ... 3) More nice level work <sigh> ... well focused again, but this time the subject fills much more of the frame. 4) Here is the logo off her uniform ... As you can see, this alone can make a substantial difference in the final quality of your image. I'm guessing that with that lens, you're not filling the viewfinder with your subject in many cases. I have the same camera, lens, extender combination and only use it for night games (for the lens speed). I switched to a 100-400L for day games and it has given me the ability to shoot much tighter and has resulted in far more keepers than ever before. As a hobby shooter who isn't deserving to carry the lens caps of many of the posters who have already given you advice, I just wanted to add one more potential fix that I learned here which did me a world of good. Keep shooting and keep posting. These guys'll get you up to speed. Our 40d's do limit us in some respects (compared to the gear the big boys use), but it can produce a really nice image with the right methods. Hope this helps. Gary Nov 19, 2008 at 11:32 PM

ericgu Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #17 · Help with sharper/better photos Everybody covered the major things. A few other ideas: 1) You don't mention how many exposures you're shooting. Remember that Canons are release-priority on the first shot, so the camera takes the shot when you push whether it thinks it's in focus or not. Subsequent ones are focus-priority, so the first shot may not be in focus. 2) I'm assuming you're shooting at high-speed mode. 3) You don't mention how much sharpening you're adding in post. That can make a difference in how the overall picture feels. 4) What are you using to do your raw conversion? That can make a difference. 5) I'd swear that I'm seeing image noise in some of these. Photo 47/49 in the 94 white v. gc fury. set looks like it has color noise in the shorts. 6) It would help to know the full settings for each picture. If you're willing to pay for smugmug, it lets you do that (and can store a high-resolution original). 7) It's possible you have a problem with your lens or your camera. 8) It's possible your lens is front or back focusing, but looking at the images I don't think that's the case. Nov 21, 2008 at 01:12 AM

skibum5 Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #18 · Help with sharper/better photos Gordon walker wrote: Try AV? I guess I was trying to be the manual pro. I will try it. I was using 2.8 for everything, but shutter speeds were far faster than I felt I needed, and I thought that was part of the problem. Things seemed to have improved since going to 5.6-6.3. Hmmmm. use M or Av depending which works better, often M (sometimes need to roll shutter up or down a 1/3 step or 2 on the fly) but sometimes Av (oftne with EC needed) yeah use f/2.8 or close to that not sure how a fast shutter speed could possibly ever make things less sharp: 1. less motion blur as players move less distance across the frame during the time the shot gets taken 2. less tracking and handshake blur as you move the camera around to follow action if you get 1/8000th, heck al the better and as pointed out f/2,8 helps isolate the player better if the wider DOF helped that means tht focusing was not working well, the TC on the 70-200 won't help, some could be technique and some might be a backfocusing lens, and some is that no camera is perfect and some is that the non1 series canons are definitely not gonna perfectly nail the focus everytime. Nov 21, 2008 at 07:08 AM

Gordon walker Offline Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #19 · Help with sharper/better photos ericgu, 1) Varies. Sometimes one and sometimes I shoot bursts, depending on the action. I find that if the first one is on, so are the rest. But not vice versa. 2) Yes, unless me card is getting short then just regular multi-shot setting. 3) all photos had no PP except crop 4) I upload Raw direct to Picasa. It must be their converter, but I see the shots in the Canon software. There is a difference, but sharp is still sharp and soft is still soft 5) Color noise? How do I get rid of that or is it just a PP thing? 6) I will look into smugmug. But, almost all are iso 250 6.3 and 1/800 or 1/1000 7) & 8) - I expect it's operator error, especially from some of the other posts. It has taken some good shots. Thanks for the feedback. I'm debating the Sigma 120-300 2.8 or a Canon 300 f4. I am leaning toward the canon. Nov 21, 2008 at 09:32 PM

skibum5 Offline Dedicated FM Upload & Sell: Off p.1 #20 · Help with sharper/better photos Gordon walker wrote: ericgu, 1) Varies. Sometimes one and sometimes I shoot bursts, depending on the action. I find that if the first one is on, so are the rest. But not vice versa. 2) Yes, unless me card is getting short then just regular multi-shot setting. 3) all photos had no PP except crop 4) I upload Raw direct to Picasa. It must be their converter, but I see the shots in the Canon software. There is a difference, but sharp is still sharp and soft is still soft 5) Color noise? How do I get rid of that or is it just a PP thing? 6) I will look into smugmug. But, almost all are iso 250 6.3 and 1/800 or 1/1000 7) & 8) - I expect it's operator error, especially from some of the other posts. It has taken some good shots. Thanks for the feedback. I'm debating the Sigma 120-300 2.8 or a Canon 300 f4. I am leaning toward the canon. while good enough 1/800-1/1000th is actually all that fast for soccer, 1/800th is actually as low as I ever like to go if I can help it (aside from special type shots) Nov 21, 2008 at 09:56 PM

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