M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

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Archive 2008 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

jaapv
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p.3 #1 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

ISO1600 wrote:
35/1.2 Voigtlander. That's all that needs to be said.
Not quite; I have that lens on my M8 and although it is an impressive, artistic lens which gives me great low light results, a poor man's Noctilux in fact, it cannot hold a candle to the 35 Summicron asph in the daylight. And it is a heavy lump, not very wel balanced. Still, highly recommended as "second" 35 mm lens together with the aforementioned Summicron 2.0 asph.

Jan 13, 2009 at 10:40 AM

jaapv
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p.3 #2 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

On the high-ISO, if one exposes carefully, the performance up to ISO 1250 of the M8 is close to the 5D. The bad rep of the camera comes from users exposing for the highlights in low light levels, and then the camera will indeed reward you with noisy shadows. If you expose for the shadows, however, the noise magically disappears. What about blown highlights, one might argue. Yes, some will be blown, but is that a bad thing in a night shot, and the quality of the lenses will keep the negative effects within reasonable limits.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/67045-learning-love-1250-a.html

Jan 13, 2009 at 10:46 AM

jaapv
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p.3 #3 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

brainiac wrote:
Pretty much any current Nikon or Canon will give better pictures, with far less hassle, for a fraction of the money.

Bollocks. The camera brand does not make the picture, the photographer does. And if he is unhappy with the camera in his hands, it may well break all records in specification, but the images will be crap.

Somewhere else you quote the Leica boards. Well, if you took the trouble to look at the foto sections, you would see numbers of great images, made with cameras you don´t relate to to. But just as you would not be able to take these images with those cameras and would need some Canikon Mkwhatever, they would not be able to take those images with your choice, simply because they do not relate to them.

In actual fact the quality differences between all more or less upmarket cameras for the last five years as far as sensors are concerned are marginal in daily practical use, and blown all out of proportion all over the internet.
It is down to the choice of the buyer regarding lens quality and body features again, just like in the film days.

Jan 13, 2009 at 11:00 AM

ulrikft
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p.3 #4 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

I think i have to disagree a bit with you on that jaapv. I can happily snap away at iso 4000 on my d700 and get reasonable results... well, on the m8? hardly so.

I have to admit that I have only used the m8 in stores, so my own experience doesen't count for much, but:

http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq/Page_1.html

I have read that article a few times, and it just resonates badly with me. I really want a fully manual, fullframe, high iso-capable digital rangefinder, and while I understand that for many, the m8 is great, it... is not so much for me. The combination of low iso-performance, high price and no-fullframe is a show-stopper.

Jan 13, 2009 at 11:49 AM

Andi Dietrich
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p.3 #5 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

jaapv wrote:
If you expose for the shadows, however, the noise magically disappears. l

together with the advantage of the high ISO!

Jan 13, 2009 at 12:24 PM

mawz
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p.3 #6 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

jaapv wrote:

In actual fact the quality differences between all more or less upmarket cameras for the last five years as far as sensors are concerned are marginal in daily practical use, and blown all out of proportion all over the internet.
It is down to the choice of the buyer regarding lens quality and body features again, just like in the film days.

Unfortunately this is simply incorrect, particularly with regards to the latest CMOS sensors like the Sony 12MP DX sensor or any of the current-generation FF sensors. The current lot of Nikon 12MP FX bodies (and the 5DmII) can get usable shots in light where the M8 isn't going to come back with anything, Noctilux or not. When the SLR is at ISO 12,800 and the M8 is at ISO 2500 a 1/2 stop difference in lens speed isn't going to make up for more than 2 stops of ISO advantage. Within its usable ISO range the M8 can compete on IQ, but that's a very reduced range compared to most cameras over the $1000 mark.

That said, at what it does well the M8 is outstanding. It's just not all the same set of things that were its film brethren's strong suit (Near-indestructibility and low-light shooting in particular)

Jan 13, 2009 at 01:50 PM

jaapv
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p.3 #7 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

Nobody is saying the M8 is a camera for ISO 12800.
But when I can put on a 35/1.2 lens and shoot handheld at speeds of 1/2 to 1/4 with confidence, I do not need much in the way of ISO in 99.9% of cases. And from (painful) experience the indestructiblity issue is solved for me - the M8 won....

Jan 13, 2009 at 01:53 PM

thrice
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p.3 #8 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

I have an M6 and a 5D mk II, I've owned a few Canon DSLR's and a slew of Pentax/nikon/minolta film slr's before them. I love the size of the M6 and the small summarit lenses. It is my street camera, lightweight and a joy to shoot with. I find the rangefinder shooting experience far more organic and connected, you're no longer looking through the little tunnel you're looking out the big window. I don't presume to tell people which piece of equipment is better, but the one you pick up and enjoy using for a given application is the best one in my opinion.

Leica M: Love using for street and snapshots when I'm relaxed.

Canon DSLR: Love using for landscape, serious portraits, gigs/events/work for the results but less so for the experience.

Jan 13, 2009 at 02:28 PM

robsteve
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p.3 #9 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

ulrikft wrote:
I think i have to disagree a bit with you on that jaapv. I can happily snap away at iso 4000 on my d700 and get reasonable results... well, on the m8? hardly so.

The M8 will have the advantage in some lower light situations where the M lenses perform much better wide open than the Nikon equivalents. In other words, a M8 shot at 1250iso (1600) at f1.4 would produce an image of similar quality to a Nikon D3 at f2.8 at 6400iso. I was at a photo workshop in SanJuan in the spring and two of the participants had Nikon D3. In low light and the Nikon 50mm f1.4, the comparable M8 and Noctilux images were sharper and better focused.

Here are a few examples from San Juan. These are without post processing and noise reduction. Noise Ninja or a similar program will deal with some of the noise, but at the cost of some fine details.

Noctilux at f1.2 or f1 and 640iso:

Noctilux at f1 and 1250iso:

Jan 13, 2009 at 02:36 PM

brainiac
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p.3 #10 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

Andi Dietrich wrote:
jaapv wrote:
If you expose for the shadows, however, the noise magically disappears. l

together with the advantage of the high ISO!

Haha! I spotted that too, Andi. M8 high ISO is tEH BeSTeST eVAR as long as you overexpose ;-)

Seriously, I can really understand that a lot of people want the camera to be great, and it is a very good camera in many ways, if you ignore the price, but in this age of Nikon D90's and Canon 450D's, the M8 just does not compute. It is hobbled in so many ways: price, crop, image quality, mandatory noise reduction, iso, moire, IR filters, usability, not to mention the legion shortcomings of the viewfinder system. I strongly advise anyone about to buy this camera to carefully compare its results against those from a 450D before haemorraging dead presidents.

Jan 13, 2009 at 02:38 PM

robsteve
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p.3 #11 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

brainiac wrote:
before haemorraging dead presidents.

Some of us have dead Prime Ministers on our notes

Jan 13, 2009 at 02:44 PM

brainiac
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p.3 #12 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

Rob, I would have to say that I would be disappointed with your low-light results if I had shot them with, say, a 450D and 24 f1.4. They show serious noise even at this web size, and the colours look funny.

Jan 13, 2009 at 02:53 PM

ulrikft
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p.3 #13 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

I have to counter your "you have to shoot at 2.8 if you shoot nikon" claim with a few shots of my own..

Iso 3200, f/1.2 1/50:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Iso 4000, f/1.2

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Iso 3200 f/1.2

This image is copyrighted by the owner

iso 6400, f/1.2

This image is copyrighted by the owner

I would like to see a m8 come close to that lowlight performance

I'm at 1.2 AND far higher iso...

The m-series look great for what it is made for, but competing on low-light? Not a chance. the "i can shoot at 1/5 of a sec" is great a slong as you are shooting stationary subjects i guess, but I do a lot of street and candids, and 1/5 will get movement blur on the subject-side, if not on the camera side.

Jan 13, 2009 at 02:57 PM

Lotusm50
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p.3 #14 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

brainiac wrote:
Seriously, I can really understand that a lot of people want the camera to be great, and it is a very good camera in many ways, if you ignore the price, but in this age of Nikon D90's and Canon 450D's, the M8 just does not compute. It is hobbled in so many ways: price, crop, image quality, mandatory noise reduction, iso, moire, IR filters, usability, not to mention the legion shortcomings of the viewfinder system. I strongly advise anyone about to buy this camera to carefully compare its results against those from a 450D before haemorraging dead presidents.

I agree with most of this. When it arrive in the market the M8 looked great, but as I feared, Leica would not keep up, would not be able to (or think it necessary) to introduce new models with improved sensors on a product cycle considerably shorter than they were used to in the film era. The market and competitors have moved on and Leica has not. $5500 is a tall order when the level of performance can be easily had for a fifth of that cost. Indeed, it just does not compute.

That said, I would really like to see a competitive Leica, or rangefinder digital. I don't think that the viewfinder system is that much of a shortcoming and is preferable in some ways. Not for all uses, but in appropriate uses it can be great. The form factor of the camera is also great, and is downright diminutive compared to all the bulky DSLR's. Personally I am waiting for a new Leica model, or rangefinder from another maker, that addresses the issues with the M8, is competitive in IQ with the market, and perhaps is more sensibly priced given the competitive lifespan of about 2-3 years. Hopefully Leica gets its product cycles right and I don't have to wait too long.

Jan 13, 2009 at 02:59 PM

robsteve
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p.3 #15 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

ulrikft wrote:
I have to counter your "you have to shoot at 2.8 if you shoot nikon" claim with a few shots of my own..

What were the shutter speeds on these? All but the girl in the hat look underexposed. A crop into the iris detail on a low light shot will show us how sharp the Nikon is.

All my shots were below 1/30th of a second.

Robert

Edited on Jan 13, 2009 at 03:20 PM · View previous versions

Jan 13, 2009 at 03:05 PM

ulrikft
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p.3 #16 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

A digital zeiss ikon with a fullframe sensor, very good build quality, good ergonomics and a great rangefinder/viewfinder..

Imagine that! shooting 1/15 with a 35 1.2 on iso 6400...

Life doesen't get much more fun than that for street/candids. But until that arrives, I think the d700 + 28 2.0, 58 1.2 and 105 2.5 is the fitting kit for me personally. I can't speak for everyone else though!

Jan 13, 2009 at 03:05 PM

ulrikft
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p.3 #17 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

A digital zeiss ikon with a fullframe sensor, very good build quality, good ergonomics and a great rangefinder/viewfinder..

Jan 13, 2009 at 03:05 PM

jaapv
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p.3 #18 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

Hmmm yes - it would be nice. Under 2500$ too I suppose?

Jan 13, 2009 at 03:19 PM

ulrikft
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p.3 #19 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

Well, the magnesium alloy, fully electronic, pro-af, super-metering... (etc :P ) d700 goes for less than $2500, so I don't see any rational reason, other than "we have our audience, we want the dentists, nooen else"-doctrine, to price it any higher than that, to be honest, without AF-electronics and a lot of other stuff, it should be possible to make a fully manual, fully weathersealed digital fullframe rangefinder for $1500-2500 somewhere.

Jan 13, 2009 at 03:27 PM

Mike Tuomey
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p.3 #20 · M8/Leica People I'm Thinking About Switching

ulrikft wrote:
... it should be possible to make a fully manual, fully weathersealed digital fullframe rangefinder for $1500-2500 somewhere.

agreed, and when that product arrives, if i'm still standing, i will be in line to buy it.

Jan 13, 2009 at 03:45 PM

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