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Archive 2008 · Amateur Etiquette

  
 
manyquestions
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Amateur Etiquette


So, what's the etiquette for amatuers at a wedding? Other than the obvious "don't get in the way of the pro"?

Someone posted here recently and included the line " idiots with Rebels and D-60s" - can't imagine this is a reference to the hardware, because a wanker with a 1Ds is still a wanker.

Reason for asking: Have a wedding coming up in a couple of weeks and don't want to irritate anyone. Leave the white lenses at home?



Oct 21, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Inga
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Amateur Etiquette


Welcome to the forums!

Definitely been a lot of discussion on this topic over the years, so you might want to look at the search options for additional information.

That said, your first "don't get in the way of the pro" is the biggest and most obvious piece of advice you're likely to get.

Secondly, and this seems to be a pet peev of many photogs on here is shooting the pros setups or over their shoulder. A big no-no. Aside from treading on their creative toes (which is valid), there is a risk that B&G or guests look at your camera instead of the pros, resulting in eyes pointing all over the place...been there, shot that...not nice and results in lots of PP and cutting and pasting if no other shots can be used.

Some pros and other photogs get easily intimidated when a guest turns up sporting pro gear, but that's pretty petty IMO. But you should ask yourself, do I really need to take that lens? Perhaps limit yourself to a general walk around lens or something and stay "out of the way".

Fair call about a wanker being a wanker...you aren't Aussie are you?! Such an Aussie term that! Anyhow, it does seem that nowadays every Tom, Dick and Harry (or Uncle Bob) has a DSLR and often an entry level one with a kit lens...these are often the people who get in the way and have no common sense manners.

Have fun and make sure you post some pics on here for comments.

PS: You should really update/fill-in your profile and location information as it will help others to tailor their comments.



Oct 21, 2008 at 11:06 PM
manyquestions
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Amateur Etiquette


Ha, good pick-up on the location. Profile updated ;-)

The eye-direction issue hadn't really occurred to me; that's a really good point, since people will often look to a more familiar face when uncomfortable.

With "JB Hifi" selling $500 DSLR kits, it's not surprising everyone has one. They're getting cheaper than some P&S cameras, and unlike P&S cameras, when some arse takes them to the pub to shoot 5,000 pictures of people trying to relax (and get lagered) they didn't fit neatly into a pint glass.

Thanks for the pointers. Will probably stay out of the firing line and shoot with a long lens. And apply tape to any red rings to avoid stirring anyone.



Oct 21, 2008 at 11:30 PM
Inga
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Amateur Etiquette


, nice!

It's funny, I did some more reading after replying to your questions and found the thread that referred to "idots with Rebels and D60's"...and funnily enough the remainder of his comments on that topic were similiar to what I was getting at.

Anyhow, enjoy the wedding, get some nice snaps, get lagered, have some fun. Great to have another Aussie on the forum.



Oct 21, 2008 at 11:37 PM
Tomagado
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Amateur Etiquette


manyquestions wrote:
Reason for asking: Have a wedding coming up in a couple of weeks and don't want to irritate anyone. Leave the white lenses at home?


Just a quick question : Do you mean you were invited as a guest, or the B&G invited you to take pictures?

Cheers,
Thomas



Oct 21, 2008 at 11:48 PM
manyquestions
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Amateur Etiquette


Tomagado wrote:
Just a quick question : Do you mean you were invited as a guest, or the B&G invited you to take pictures?


Guest. Hence trying to be really unobtrustive.

I guess another good rule might "no flash if the pro is in the same room"?



Oct 22, 2008 at 01:04 AM
manyquestions
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Amateur Etiquette


Actually, after looking through "Uncle Bob Gallery - Not for mature people", I might just leave everything at home, or at least save it for candids well away from the action. It was https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ufiles/57/259957.jpg that clinched it ...



Oct 22, 2008 at 01:50 AM
phil hawkins
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Amateur Etiquette


I'm the guy who coined the "Idiots with Rebels and D60s". What this is referring to is people who literally walk right behind the pro and shoot over his shoulder. At the very least it's distracting to hear someone else's camera going off in your ear when you're trying to concentrate, and it's also rude to think you can go right up behind someone and shoot what they are being paid to shoot. They are the ones there making a living by arranging everyone, balancing the group, requesting cooperation, balancing the background, and people come up and shoot away.

here's the deal; Wedding photographers make money by charging the B&G to show up and shoot the wedding. Various price levels can contain package amenities such as an album, maybe an 11x14 portrait, mother-in-law album, etc. Above the agreed-to items, they must pay for additional prints. If an amateur brings a Rebel or D60, which takes very good pictures, and then decides to start giving them away, he's taken money away from the pro. He's "stolen" his or her setup, then gives away the results. Try bringing an ice chest into the multi-plex movie theater next time you go and see what happens. They are there to make money. I am considering putting a clause in my contract that attendees may not bring cameras to the wedding.

Shooting a wedding is

a) Hard work; it takes intense concentration, a constant awareness of what's coming next, how it needs to be shot, and when. In a big wedding you will run all over the place, an average of two miles, changing CF cards, lenses, retrieving cords, etc.

b) An awesome responsibility; You only get one opportunity to get a shot of a one-time only event. For better or worse, the actions of these two people and the associated hangers-on will never happen again. Ever. So you HAVE to be good at what you do so you can make sure you get the shot. There will always be another football game, or sunset, or children playing in the yard, but this wedding and it's parts is literally, a once-in-a-lifetime-event. Here's a list of the BASICS that a two-shooter photography team must try to capture:


Pre-ceremony

* Bride's gown before she slips it on
* Bride having her hair styled and makeup applied
* Candid shots of the bride and her 'maids getting ready
* Bridal party reacting to the bride in her gown
* Bride heading to the ceremony site
* Bride and her father just before walking down the aisle
* Groom with his father
* Candid shots of the groom and groomsmen getting ready
* Groom heading to the ceremony site
* Dramatic on-site landscapes (such as stormy skies, lush woods, fields of flowers)

Ceremony site

* Exterior and interior of the ceremony site before guests arrive
* Guests arriving
* Bridal party arriving
* Musicians performing
* Family members being seated
* Processional and recessional
* Bride and her father (or escort) walking down the aisle
* Groom reacting to bride walking down the aisle
* Father giving the bride away
* Wide shot of the altar/chuppah
* Bride and groom reciting their vows
* Bride and groom exchanging rings
* The couple's first kiss
* Bride and groom being introduced to their guests as a married couple
* Bride and groom exiting their ceremony site
* Receiving line
* Bride and groom in their getaway car

Reception site

* Exterior and interior shots of the reception site before guests arrive
* Table settings
* Menu, escort, and table cards
* Guests signing the book
* Escort-card table
* Food stations and bar setup during cocktail hour
* Bridal-party table
* Bride and groom cutting the cake
* Wedding-party entrances
* Guests seated at their tables
* Bride and groom's first dance
* Toasts and blessing (if applicable)
* Father-daughter dance
* Mother-son dance
* Band or DJ
* Guests dancing
* Bouquet and garter toss, anniversary dance
* Candid shots throughout the night
* Bride and groom send-off

Formal portraits

* Bride and groom, each alone
* Bride and groom posed together
* Bride and groom with wedding party
* Bride with her family
* Groom with his family
* Bride and groom with bride's family
* Bride and groom with groom's family
* Both families together
* Bride with her mother
* Groom with his father
* Flower girl and ring bearers with bride and groom

Close-ups

* Bridal bouquet
* Boutonniere
* Shoes
* Details on the bride's gown
* Details on the groom's attire such as cuff links
* Jewelry
* Ceremony programs
* Centerpieces
* Hors d'oeuvres
* Specialty drinks
* Wedding cake
* Favors

(from bride.com)

c) Very, very hard on equipment. Banging around, the heat, and back east and in the midwest you have humidity and the threat of sudden rain. If you shoot a wedding on the beach the sand and salt will eat your equipment like acid. Setting up and using strobes wears on your flash heads, bulbs, etc. Wind can and does knock over softboxes, little kids running around tripping on power cords, Great Aunt Martha unplugging your strobe so she can use the AC plug... and not to mention shooting 1,500 shots the toll on your shutter...

d) Very demanding work even after the wedding with post, delivery of proofs, etc.

A wedding photographer earns every cent he or she receives.

DO NOT, that means DO NOT shoot over the pros shoulder on formals... or anything else you see him shooting. I shot the cutting of the cake and it was like shooting jubee shots after a football game. I am the pro and could not get a position without pushing amateurs out of the way.

I had to WAIT to get my shots done while a guy with a Rebel took his own setups of the B&G and parents on their way to my location for the same thing. Pissed me off!

Seriously, I am thinking about banning all other cameras at my weddings. They want pictures? I am the official wedding photographer and you can buy them from me. Otherwise, you do without.

I will give you Kudos for having the courtesy to ask the question. Please spread the word.

Edited on Oct 22, 2008 at 02:26 AM · View previous versions



Oct 22, 2008 at 02:07 AM
Tomagado
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Amateur Etiquette


manyquestions wrote:
Guest. Hence trying to be really unobtrustive.

I guess another good rule might "no flash if the pro is in the same room"?


I would just go as a guest. You were invited as one, so go, enjoy your family and friends. You weren't asked to take pictures, so why would you? If they've spent lots of time and money finding someone that they want to photograph their day, let their photographer shoot the pictures.

Don't take this as a chance to learn about weddings.

Be a good guest

Cheers,
Thomas



Oct 22, 2008 at 02:22 AM
Patrick Elliott
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Amateur Etiquette


Phil Hawkins,

Well said.

Patrick



Oct 22, 2008 at 09:05 AM
asimsoofi
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Amateur Etiquette


manyquestions wrote:
...because a wanker with a 1Ds is still a wanker.


Well put.

/asim



Oct 22, 2008 at 10:22 AM
phil hawkins
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Amateur Etiquette


Patrick Elliott wrote:
Phil Hawkins,

Well said.

Patrick


Thanks, Patrick... I wish all amateurs would read this.



Oct 22, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Rob001
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Amateur Etiquette


a clause in the contract banning all other cameras? Good luck with that one!

Here's the sad reality, folks. Digital cameras have become cheap. Everybody thinks that with the program settings they can be a pro. They're everywhere. Maybe such a clause is the way around it - it may be the ONLY way around it. The solution I've found to most situations is to be professional and curteous. Most people taking pictures think of it in the same terms as the old instamatics and don't recognize how they're hurting the pro.

You know, the more I think about it - the ONLY way you're ever going to deal with this completely is to ban all other cameras. Better have a good rep to pull that one off.



Oct 22, 2008 at 11:45 AM
phil hawkins
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Amateur Etiquette


Rob001 wrote:
a clause in the contract banning all other cameras? Good luck with that one!

Here's the sad reality, folks. Digital cameras have become cheap. Everybody thinks that with the program settings they can be a pro. They're everywhere. Maybe such a clause is the way around it - it may be the ONLY way around it. The solution I've found to most situations is to be professional and curteous. Most people taking pictures think of it in the same terms as the old instamatics and don't recognize how they're hurting the pro.

You know, the more I think about it - the
...Show more

Most people do not realize the conflict with pros... but some people show up with big, expensive cameras to impress people, and do not understand the problem. If you discuss it with the B&G upfront, and ask them to ask their guests to observe restrictions, you can lessen the problem. But I agree, it might be a difficult sell to require that ALL cameras be banned. I'm only considering it at this point... But many photographers already have a clause that specifically stipulates that other people may not shoot formal setups by the paid pro. Taking it a step further is not that much of a leap. It can be explained by saying you would not go to Denny's with a sack lunch from McDonald's and order water and then sit and eat. You cannot bring food into a movie theater. You cannot bring food into an arena for a concert or sports event... This is a well-accepted concept, and in this day of digital it's time to extend it to weddings... The time has come!!



Oct 22, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Amateur Etiquette


phil hawkins wrote:
[Most people do not realize the conflict with pros... but some people show up with big, expensive cameras to impress people, and do not understand the problem. If you discuss it with the B&G upfront, and ask them to ask their guests to observe restrictions, you can lessen the problem. But I agree, it might be a difficult sell to require that ALL cameras be banned. I'm only considering it at this point... But many photographers already have a clause that specifically stipulates that other people may not shoot formal setups by the paid pro. Taking it a step
...Show more

While I agree in theory, there's no way to bring this up to clients without sounding like a (insert word here)... not to mention that I can't think any bride would hire someone that requires them to ban all their guests from bringing cameras.

I think courtesy wins here. If someone shows up with a 5D and a 70-200, just go up, ask how they are doing, what they're into with photography, ect... then politely ask them to avoid being in the way. Hasn't failed yet.



Oct 22, 2008 at 12:54 PM
phil hawkins
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Amateur Etiquette


Tony Hoffer wrote:
While I agree in theory, there's no way to bring this up to clients without sounding like a (insert word here)... not to mention that I can't think any bride would hire someone that requires them to ban all their guests from bringing cameras.

I think courtesy wins here. If someone shows up with a 5D and a 70-200, just go up, ask how they are doing, what they're into with photography, ect... then politely ask them to avoid being in the way. Hasn't failed yet.


Getting in the way is not the issue; it's someone taking shots and then giving them away thus cutting in to your income potential. I agree it would be a hard sell, but I think we as an industry need to start thinking in these terms.



Oct 22, 2008 at 01:00 PM
Polar Star
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Amateur Etiquette


Tony Hoffer wrote:
While I agree in theory, there's no way to bring this up to clients without sounding like a (insert word here)... not to mention that I can't think any bride would hire someone that requires them to ban all their guests from bringing cameras.

I think courtesy wins here. If someone shows up with a 5D and a 70-200, just go up, ask how they are doing, what they're into with photography, ect... then politely ask them to avoid being in the way. Hasn't failed yet.


I guess that would work. And since you are obviously a pro, you would know. That said, it's nice to get the benefit of the doubt from time to time. I took my dslr (yes...a rebel) along to some friends' wedding last week, simply because I wanted to have my own record of the event. I made sure to stay well out of the pro's way, mostly because he was obviously somewhat harried. Not everyone is intent on trying to duplicate the pro's work, nor is everyone unaware of the need to let a pro do his work.

However, I have to agree that any pro who decides to require that guests do not bring a camera will, I suspect, soon be looking for a new line of work.

The wedding took place in a very grand, ornate Catholic church. It was videotaped as well, and because of this it was very well lit. That enabled someone like me to get some nice shots with my much more modest set up, so I was pleased. The service itself was constantly lit by the flashes of P&S cameras recording the back of the row in front's heads. I was shooting without a flash, at higher ISO, but then I contributed mirror and shutter noise. That said, I think I was less disruptive than the P&S flashes, so maybe they should be more of a target than the Rebel/D60 users.....

Oddly, what I learned from the experience was to either (a) not bring my camera at all, or (b) bring it for a couple of shots of my wife and I and maybe a couple later in the evening. Using it at other times was distracting and prevented me from fully enjoying my friends' big day. And what use is that, when the results will not be nearly as good as the pro's? Next time, I'll likely just leave it and ask for copies from the B&G.



Oct 22, 2008 at 01:26 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Amateur Etiquette


Polar Star wrote:
Oddly, what I learned from the experience was to either (a) not bring my camera at all, or (b) bring it for a couple of shots of my wife and I and maybe a couple later in the evening. Using it at other times was distracting and prevented me from fully enjoying my friends' big day. And what use is that, when the results will not be nearly as good as the pro's? Next time, I'll likely just leave it and ask for copies from the B&G.


This is exactly how I feel. I can't blame people for wanting to take some shots of them and their friends on the dance floor. I'd do the same thing. But, I also don't understand the point of shooting the ceremony from the pews, especially with a P&S. It's not so much that the pictures will undoubtedly be bad, I just don't understand what those people are doing with those pictures. Surely, they don't make prints of them, right??



Oct 22, 2008 at 01:35 PM
rdutto01
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Amateur Etiquette


Hey Phil,
As usual, I'm going to open my mouth and insert my foot. I'm still an amateur trying to break into the Wedding Photography business, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I’ve shot 8 weddings in the last 6 months, so I’m pretty sure I’m of no threat to the professionals on this forum, but I can’t wait for the flaming to begin.

I’ve read many of your posts and you are one of the most insightful and helpful photographers on this forum, but I think you may need to rethink your position on the not allowing cameras to the wedding proceedings.

1) I agree that all of the non-paid image takers should stay out of the way of the professional, but it is the professional’s job to make sure the non-professionals know what they can and cannot do. Yes, this makes your job twice as hard, but I think that it is part of being a wedding photographer. If you have to muscle your way into position to get the shot, that is what you are being paid to do. I’m pretty sure that showing the B&G a couple of images of the back of Uncle Bob’s head, should quickly put a stop to his behavior.

2) The professional is providing a service that the B&G are paying for. I don’t think that means you have a complete monopoly on all the images made during the wedding day events. If you can right a contract that bans all cameras and enforce it, by all means do it, but are you really doing what is best for the B&G? This is their day and if they would like other people to share in the proceedings, why should you try to stop them? In addition, are you able to capture every possible event? There are other significant participants that will want to have memories of the wedding that the B&G could care less about. Why should the professional stop this from occurring?

3) As the professional photographer, I would think that your images should be considerably better than any of the images of the non-professionals, that the B&G will want to pay you for your product. If they are no better than the images from Uncle Bob shooting over your shoulder, maybe you shouldn’t get additional money for them. I think the analogy was made of taking food from one restaurant into another restaurant. The problem with this analogy is that the professional photographer does not own the restaurant, the B&G does! If the B&G wants other people to take images of their special day, that is what should be done.

I can’t help but think that many of the professional photographers on this forum remind me of the U.S. automakers 40 years ago when the flood of high-quality, low cost vehicles started eating into their profits. They started insisting on import duties, etc. instead of improving their product to compete with the foreign market. With the low cost, fully automated digital cameras available, many people can now take decent images. Either you elevate your game to provide a superior product, lower your price so that you are still competitive or find a new business.

Of course, I'm just an amateur that knows nothing about the Wedding Photography business!!!!!



Oct 22, 2008 at 03:24 PM
phil hawkins
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Amateur Etiquette


rdutto01 wrote:
Hey Phil,
As usual, I'm going to open my mouth and insert my foot. I'm still an amateur trying to break into the Wedding Photography business, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I’ve shot 8 weddings in the last 6 months, so I’m pretty sure I’m of no threat to the professionals on this forum, but I can’t wait for the flaming to begin.

I’ve read many of your posts and you are one of the most insightful and helpful photographers on this forum, but I think you may need to rethink your position on the not allowing
...Show more

Your points are well taken, and I fully realize that banning all cameras from a wedding is probably not realistic, but I say it to make a point. If a pro brings two shooters there is no reason not to get all the action. Yes, great Uncle Bob might well want to take pictures of his family that hasn't been together in one group for many years, I understand all that. I know it's an uphill battle, but I am definitely going to add a paragraph in my contract that informs the B&G that I will be enforcing the "No shooting pro setups" rule. I will also enforce a time limit, as most of my weddings have had late starts, some as long as 45 minutes, for no reason other than bride laziness.

I have reached a point that I am no longer willing to tolerate B&G laziness or disrespect... and that I need to beef up my contract to protect my profits and profit potential.

All of you should do the same. The temptation to be a nice guy, and to be liked for your generosity is huge, but respect is better and longer lasting. You will get zero respect for doing things for nothing of next to nothing.



Oct 22, 2008 at 03:35 PM
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