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Marcus Watts
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p.1 #1 · The film look


Is it something that we love only because it is part of our past? I mean had we never experienced film and then seen it's look compared to digital would we really think that film had a nicer look to it?

How will that effect the future. I know film will never get back to what it was but there is still a market but will that market shrink as newer photographers emerge who have no emotional connection to film until eventually it dies out altogether and never missed or will there always be a calling for it from those with more discerning taste?

Oct 08, 2008 at 07:16 PM
colinm
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p.1 #2 · The film look


You'd be surprised; there are a not-insignificant number of people who got into photography through digital and have converted to film.

If anything dies out in the near future, it'll be darkroom color printing rather than film. There's been a large resurgence in film photography, particularly in medium- and large-format.

Color printing, on the other hand, has always been the bane of the color photographer—the chemistry's horribly toxic, there are very limited paper choices, and there's no real control over saturation, contrast, or local color. Throw some film in a scanner and all of those are addressed.

Oct 08, 2008 at 10:12 PM
jerryrock
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p.1 #3 · The film look


colinm wrote:
If anything dies out in the near future, it'll be darkroom color printing rather than film. There's been a large resurgence in film photography, particularly in medium- and large-format.

Color printing, on the other hand, has always been the bane of the color photographer—the chemistry's horribly toxic, there are very limited paper choices, and there's no real control over saturation, contrast, or local color. Throw some film in a scanner and all of those are addressed.


These statements are incorrect. I started out over 20 years ago with a full color darkroom. There were plenty of paper choices and color control was accomplished through the enlarger filters. Cibachrome process allowed for very saturated prints with excellent contrast from positive film.

Color and black & white chemistry are both toxic. Film is dying because of our new "green" technology that now surpasses the image quality of film. There is no practical reason to keep film alive. Many renown schools that teach photography are phasing out film because of this.




Oct 08, 2008 at 10:24 PM
Chris Langer
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p.1 #4 · The film look


My college (RIT) has phased out 150ish darkrooms in our building and changing them into digital labs. The incoming freshman are now required to shoot completely in digital and no more darkroom basics are taught. My class was the last class to learn black and white and color printing. There are electives that teach fine art printing and use film but mostly everything is slowly switching to digital. I am excited to see what happens when i graduate and where things are. But I feel film is nice for black and white but I really really enjoy my digital for color. I have shot 4x5 chrome/negative color film and find it nice but digital is so much nicer.

People will always use film but things are changing. After this year of using 4x5 exclusively, I will make a totally digital move and never use film again unless my assignment calls for it. I see no need for it anymore since our digital cameras are becoming so technically advanced.

Chris

Oct 09, 2008 at 01:02 AM
srudy
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p.1 #5 · The film look


I consider the "film look" to be one of many graphic choices that I am afforded as a digital photographer. No doubt some of it is nostalgia. I enjoy using SilverFX to emulate the black and white film I used to shoot. Similarly, film is now just another choice you have to create a photographic image with the impact you hope to effect. I imagine younger photographers look at post-processing much differently than I do. Everything I do in Photoshop starts with adjusting the image as I would have in a darkroom, and then building upon that. Without that darkroom experience I would think the approach is different, even if the results are reasonably similar.

Oct 09, 2008 at 01:32 AM
Wilfredo
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p.1 #6 · The film look


I still shoot a roll of film now and then and recently purchased a Leica M2. I love using it. It's nice to know I still have the film option if I want that true film look.

Wilfredo

Oct 09, 2008 at 02:50 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #7 · The film look


"Is it something that we love only because it is part of our past?"

No, it's something we love because of the organic feel of the image. Sure, digital is great and it's often the right tool for the job, especially for the tight deadlines and diminishing budgets of commercial photography, but film is far from dead. We like it for the same reason we like vacuum tube amplifiers for sound and photomultipliers for our scanner sensors. There is a smoothness in how film rolls off into specular highlights that digital renders very harshly. Adding "digtital" film grain to simulate film can help but does not accomplish the same thing. Take a 35mm Kodachrome, Velvia or T-Max100, drum scan it at 8000 ppi and make a 40 X 60 compared to a 1DsMKIII image of the same scene. Yeah, you'll have some grain and the digital may be slightly sharper, but you'll almost always prefer the look of the film especially when you start looking at the artifacts. I'm the first one to admit that it's rarely possible to shoot film on commercial work today, but for those who say film is dead or that there is no use for it are completely off base. If you want the best black and white images you can get, you really do need to shoot film and if you've never seen what a really good drum scan can pull from a great piece of film, well, you really should.

"Color printing, on the other hand, has always been the bane of the color photographer—the chemistry's horribly toxic, there are very limited paper choices, and there's no real control over saturation, contrast, or local color."

Perhaps you never used Pan Masking film, which of course, you could expose with color filters to affect the contrast and look of the mask. Perhaps you never burned or dodged with color printing filters - localized color and density corrections. Sure, the controls aren't as fine as we have now for digital, but there were some great controls available if you wanted to take the time to learn them.

That being said, for all but the largest color prints and situations where you need high quantities of actual photographic prints, there's very little reason for doing chemical prints. For the most part, inkjets have effectively, and I mean that in the best sense of the word, replaced chemical prints, exposed analog or digitally.

Black and white is still a very viable especially when treated as a hybrid process - shooting black and white film, drum scanning it and either outputting a new LVT piece of film for darkroom printing or printing inkjet.



Oct 09, 2008 at 06:45 AM
Gary Petersen
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p.1 #8 · The film look


It will go the same way as the 78rpm record, 8 track tapes and Ramblers.

Oct 09, 2008 at 07:10 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #9 · The film look


Strangely enough, there were quite a few folks buying 12 inch LP's, yes, LP's at Jackson Browne's L.A. Orpheum Theatre show Sunday night. Film will be around as a niche for quite some time, and for the fine art market, especially large format, it's still quite strong.

Oct 09, 2008 at 08:20 AM
Todd Warnke
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p.1 #10 · The film look


Yeah, but did any of those Jackson Browne fans rush home in their Rambler and record their LP to an 8-track?



Peace,

Todd

Oct 09, 2008 at 01:43 PM
butchM
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p.1 #11 · The film look


While LPs, 8 tracks and yes, even vintage Ramblers will remain marketable in some corners for the foreseeable future, the diminished market share for film will continue to dwindle. This will result in fewer improvements and advancements in both film and film cameras. Manufacturers will be less likely invest far less in R&D for these items as the ROI also diminishes. But there is always glass plates and tin-type if you really want an organic appeal.

There is nothing wrong with film or the desire to work with it. Like all technologies, while it may be desired by a few, it will ultimately give way to the future.

Oct 09, 2008 at 06:54 PM
mrladewig
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p.1 #12 · The film look


Over the last few years

Kodak has just released a new color negative film (my local shop has it on order) and updated their B&W films.

Fuji has released a new Velvia and then re-released the classic Velvia 50.

On the other hand, my local pro-lab just shut down the E-6 line.

As one who shoots with both film and digital I think each has their own strengths. As I learn more and more about hybrid processes, I've come back to film and am truly enjoying it now more than ever.

Oct 09, 2008 at 07:28 PM
HerbChong
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p.1 #13 · The film look


film has been declining in volume (rolls) for something just over 30% yr for several years now. there is no indication that is going to slow down for the next couple of years. your film choices are going to become more limited quickly and QC will get even worse than it is now, especially for professional use. several of my diehard 4x5 film users are shooting medium format digital now because they no longer get reliable developing of their E-6 film to their standards, even in the NYC area. a few years ago, professional E-6 development was almost interchangeable and you could go on price.

Herb....

Oct 09, 2008 at 07:48 PM
mrladewig
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p.1 #14 · The film look


As one who uses both digital and film, I don't have any ethical problem with either. I know that despite the fervent pitch of folks like Jerry and Herb, its not going anywhere. QC is fine with the emulsions. Kodak's emulsions are as good as they have ever been. Fuij is putting out some good quality stuff. A resurgence in ULF cameras has resulted in companies offering new films sizes like 20"X24" and 7"X17". But there are some down sides too. Kodak has stopped producing readyload packets. Reportedly they were produced by Polaroid using film provided by Kodak, so when Polaroid stopped production, Kodak lost its manufacturing line. E-6 labs are closing.

I'll also say that if I were shooting for commercial purposes, unless a client SPECIFICALLY wanted film, it would make more sense to shoot digitally. Color calibration is much easier and although the processing is pushed onto us photographers, it does aloow faster turn around.

However, for personal work and art work I still think there are alot of good reasons to shoot film, especially in a hybrid film/digital workflow. First off, traditional prints are still favored by collectors. Its changing, but that is the preference. However, there are also new technologies that have resulted from merged digital and analog workflow. There are new opportunities to use inkjet printers to create advanced masks for B&W enlargement printing. Scanning and printing color film can give you the best of both worlds with the look of a particular film with the control and adjustment capability of digital. On top of that, RA4 printers like the lightjet and chromira combine digital and traditional components into a best of both worlds solution. Another thing that I like about film/digital hybrid processing is that rarely does the film give the sharp blowout on color channels or white and black that digital cameras produce. Even if a slide is blown out, you can reduce exposure in the scan or at least take some texture off the base. It appears much less harsh than digital capture to my eyes. On the flip side, yes film grain and scanning noise and dust can all be irritations.

There are still very high quality labs available. Consolidation will mean that the best survive, and probably do more business as a result. The local lab that I mentioned before, I only used them for convenience, but there were QA issues. The new lab I'm using has a sterling reputation. And there are new labs with new techniques too. Check out dr5 lab in Denver who specialize in B&W reversal.

Oct 10, 2008 at 04:58 PM
Deezie
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p.1 #15 · The film look


Gary wrote: It will go the same way as the 78rpm record, 8 track tapes and Ramblers.

Wow, haven't heard anyone mention a Rambler is ages. My first car was a '62 Rambler Classic. The front seat slid down all the way across, practically making it into a bed with the back seat. Was great for making out with the girls at the local drive-in.

Back to topic. In the commercial world, I don't have a single client who prefers a film format. Not to say they wouldn't accept it, but it's getting to the point where many clients have never worked with film and probably wouldn't know what to do with it.

Oct 10, 2008 at 05:12 PM
Nathan67
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p.1 #16 · The film look


Fuji seem very committed to film, they have even jointly with Cosina/Voigtlander developed a new medium format folding FILM camera.. due out spring 09.....

http://www.voigtlaender.de/cms/voigtlaender/voigtlaender_cms.nsf/id/pa_fdih7jzkae.html



Oct 10, 2008 at 06:50 PM
HerbChong
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p.1 #17 · The film look


nobody said anything about emulsion QC. it's the professional lab's processing QC that is getting worse. as for the 30%/yr drop, that has stayed nearly constant for over 2 years, as reported by Fuji and Kodak themselves and as forecast by them for the next two years.

Herb...

mrladewig wrote:
As one who uses both digital and film, I don't have any ethical problem with either. I know that despite the fervent pitch of folks like Jerry and Herb, its not going anywhere. QC is fine with the emulsions.



Oct 10, 2008 at 07:22 PM
picnic
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p.1 #18 · The film look


For those who know Mark Tucker's work--his blog about his return to some film/Hassy for his own personal work might be interesting.
http://marktucker.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/some/

Diane

Oct 10, 2008 at 07:59 PM

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