focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

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Archive 2008 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #1 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

Hi all
I've experienced some focusing troubles trying to shoot kite surfing
tricks with the following stuff:
canon eos 40D
EF 70-200 f2.8 IS
canon extender 1.4x
manfrotto tripod with 322 head

Usually, I shoot with the following sets:
Av priority (usually set to f4.0)
AF mode: one shot
AF point: central

Kite surf shooting request me to follow the subject a little, both in
orizonthal (when he prepares the trick) and vertical (when he jumps)
so I leave my IS active in mode 1, and more could happen (depending
on wind direcion) that he approaches me while preparing the trick

what's the problem now?
a lot of shoots results out of focus, as the 2 following:

while many others are well focused (I think), as the following:

A mark III user suggested me to use AF Focus mode (I think AF Servo
is not available for mark III) and automatic focus point ... I think
mark III uses different algorithms or he is much more a good shooter
than me, because I've tried AF Servo and AF Focus, but the risk to
focus waves/see instead of the core subject is very high.
Moreover, I've tried with automatic focus point... but having similar
troubles...

more info about each shoot (if you are so glad to help me!!!) and
more photos are available on

eddy.zenfolio.com - first folder on the left between the "recently added"

THANKS GUYS !!!
Eddy

Sep 11, 2008 at 09:30 AM

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #2 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

sorry ... zenfolio is down and shoots are currently not available... should be up again in 2 hours it seems

Sep 11, 2008 at 10:08 AM

msalvetti
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p.1 #3 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

Well, even without the photos, one problem you may have is using One Shot. Usually if your subject is moving, you need to be using AI Servo. Activate with a half-press, and pan with your subject. The focus will constantly adjust as the distance to your subject changes, which One Shot won't do. Then fire a burst of shots. It's important to activate focus when panning so the camera has time to acquire and focus. Don't bother with AI Focus - not reliable.

Also, tell us what shutter speeds you're using.

Mark

Sep 11, 2008 at 10:48 AM

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #4 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

msalvetti wrote:
Well, even without the photos, one problem you may have is using One Shot. Usually if your subject is moving, you need to be using AI Servo. Activate with a half-press, and pan with your subject. The focus will constantly adjust as the distance to your subject changes, which One Shot won't do. Then fire a burst of shots. It's important to activate focus when panning so the camera has time to acquire and focus. Don't bother with AI Focus - not reliable.

Also, tell us what shutter speeds you're using.

Mark

thanks Mark
I've tried with AI Servo, but it seems the camera stops focusing my desired subject (the kiter) and sometimes start focusing the sea/vwaves behind...
Servo mode should "understand" which is your main subject and distinguish it from the rest... like for auto/moto shoots when they comes in your direction... isn't it?
So, could I experience this because I'm not panning in the right mode? because I move my hands too much? but it's strange I'm also using a tripod with a sport head (322 manfrotto)

shutter speeds are usually high... 1/1000 to 1/4000 depending on the light

and more: do you think I can keep using the central focus point, or it could be better the "auto" point chiìoice? or to use all the points togther ? I tried, in my opinion is better to use the central point and (if needed) change the compositiona fter I've focused

I hate zenfolio - I'm sure would be much easier with some examples to argue about

Sep 11, 2008 at 11:31 AM

astrolucida
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p.1 #5 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

eddy.fioretti wrote:
Usually, I shoot with the following sets:
AF mode: one shot

Kite surf shooting request me to follow the subject a little, both in
orizonthal (when he prepares the trick) and vertical (when he jumps)
so I leave my IS active in mode 1, and more could happen (depending
on wind direcion) that he approaches me while preparing the trick

Your two problems: you need to use AF Servo and no IS for moving targets. Either of them can ruin your photos.

Sep 11, 2008 at 11:34 AM

trenchmonkey
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p.1 #6 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

Yeah, get out of "one shot" and lose the filter if using one. AF really suffers for some reason with the 2.8 IS

Sep 11, 2008 at 11:59 AM

maverick666
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p.1 #7 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

f4 ?. You won't get anything...try f8.

Sep 11, 2008 at 12:44 PM

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #8 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

@ astrolucida and trenchmonkey

do you think there is no/low risk to focus behind the main subject with Servo ?
Sorry but I had very poor results in this way... i'm a little bit afraid even if I agree with you - it's expressely made for that use!

can't remove the filter - sea water is a nightmare ! and those shots are made with 20-30knots ... a lot of sand and water on the air

No IS you say ? nor the mode-2

so I wasted my money buying it

but makes sense... I'm shooting at 1/1000 to 1/4000 so IS is not strictly necessary

Sep 11, 2008 at 01:03 PM

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #9 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

maverick666 wrote:
f4 ?. You won't get anything...try f8.

mmhhh ... could be, but I like pictures with very low depth, ans someone has very good overall aspect (on my opinion)

Sep 11, 2008 at 01:13 PM

trenchmonkey
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p.1 #10 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

Eddy...I see, well it's gotta be a lot like shooting BIF. Servo, Av, center point, and * button for AF. Bump up ISO to keep
shutter speeds over 1/1000th. The 40D will do a great job for you, just takes a little tweaking and practice. The last
shot looks great and I'd think a keeper rate of 60% should be attainable with that combo and short bursts.

Edited on Sep 11, 2008 at 01:22 PM

Sep 11, 2008 at 01:21 PM

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #11 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

trenchmonkey wrote:
Eddy...I see, well it's gotta be a lot like shooting BIF. Servo, Av, center point, and * button for AF. Bump up ISO to keep
shutter speeds over 1/1000th. The 40D will do a great job for you, just takes a little tweaking and practice. The last
shot looks great and I'd think a keeper rate of 60% should be attainable with that combo and short bursts.

some more questions trenchmonkey....
- what is BIF ?
- practice - you refer to maintain the center point always on the subject?
- last shot - what you mean with "keeper rate of 60%" ?

sorry... I'm italian - my english still don't reach such a technical speaking

Sep 11, 2008 at 02:11 PM

trenchmonkey
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p.1 #12 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

Sorry, Eddy. You're doing fine. BIF is 'birds in flight' and they take a lot of practice as the kites must.
I'm saying with proper technique over 1/2 your shots should consistently be in focus with the 40D
and the 70-200 f2.8 IS. Hope this helps...Will

Sep 11, 2008 at 02:18 PM

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #13 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

trenchmonkey wrote:
Sorry, Eddy. You're doing fine. BIF is 'birds in flight' and they take a lot of practice as the kites must.
I'm saying with proper technique over 1/2 your shots should consistently be in focus with the 40D
and the 70-200 f2.8 IS. Hope this helps...Will

sound better now

and the %s you are mentioning encourages me - I'm already over it, even without the proper suggestions - happy about that

anyway, BIF is harder than kiters (I'm a kiter - I'cant prevent my friends' moves... but if you're not a bird ...)

Sep 11, 2008 at 02:26 PM

trenchmonkey
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p.1 #14 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

A tutto c'è rimedio, fuorchè alla morte.

Sep 11, 2008 at 02:27 PM

Seth Tower
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p.1 #15 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

IS will NOT ruin your shots at such a high shutter; where did you hear that? I use IS on my lens all the time, from 1/2 of a second to 1/8000, and I've NEVER had it "ruin" a shot. And I'm talking about tens of thousands of images.

You are right that it will have no effect on camera shake at those shutter speeds, however the steady image in the viewfinder makes it much easier to compose and shoot.

Sep 11, 2008 at 02:56 PM

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #16 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

your italian seems far better than my english

Sep 11, 2008 at 03:30 PM

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #17 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

Seth Tower wrote:
IS will NOT ruin your shots at such a high shutter; where did you hear that? I use IS on my lens all the time, from 1/2 of a second to 1/8000, and I've NEVER had it "ruin" a shot. And I'm talking about tens of thousands of images.

You are right that it will have no effect on camera shake at those shutter speeds, however the steady image in the viewfinder makes it much easier to compose and shoot.

it will not sort any effect even if mounted over a tripod? tha manuals (and almost everybody) says that IS should be turned off while shooting with a tripod... your thought please ?

Sep 11, 2008 at 03:46 PM

trenchmonkey
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p.1 #18 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

eddy.fioretti wrote:

your italian seems far better than my english

Thanks to Google, Eddy!

Sep 11, 2008 at 03:46 PM

TrojanHorse
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p.1 #19 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

I hate to do this but here goes... OK, "I've HEARD that you need to let the IS settle down when you're tracking a subject before pressing the shutter release" (I don't own any IS lenses)

So try it with the IS off, see how your results look.

I support the statements that you should use Servo mode as well - on the 40D the camera will use the center focus point until it achieves focus lock, then it uses all 9 to track a moving subject. If you are moving the camera off and on the subject, who knows how it will affect your focus but servo is definitely the way to go.

And on the subject of budget... since I also mostly shoot outdoor sports in bright light I got the 70-200 f4 with no IS. I also typically use f5.6 because the depth of field at the long end of a 200mm lens is really tiny.

And don't forget to sharpen the picture after you're done editing it! I actually like the in-camera sharpening on the 40D for sports, try different settings and see what you like.

Sep 11, 2008 at 04:19 PM

eddy.fioretti
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p.1 #20 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

TrojanHorse wrote:

And don't forget to sharpen the picture after you're done editing it! I actually like the in-camera sharpening on the 40D for sports, try different settings and see what you like.

could you please specify a little bit more please, Trojanhorse?
you are talking about the "portrait/landscape/blabla" setting thorugh the shortcut button present also under the monitor ?
thanks

Sep 11, 2008 at 07:03 PM

Esquire08
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p.1 #21 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

He is talking about "sharpening" in Photoshop or other programs used after you take the pictures. Your 40D has lots of settings in-camera that will make the images look different.

Do you shoot in RAW or JPEG? If RAW, these settings are useless.

Also, the f/2.8 IS and 40D are known for focusing problems. My 40D had to be sent back to Canon because the auto-focus assembly was messed up.

Sep 11, 2008 at 07:16 PM

John Ferguson
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p.1 #22 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

Use AI Servo, do not use AI Focus. AI Focus waits until your subject is completely out of the depth of field before switching to AI Servo and trying to refocus. Use the center focus point only for your situation, when using AI Servo with all focus points selected, the outer focus points can lock in on the subject with the most contrast which will probably be the white portion of the waves. Turn off IS, it does not help when your shutter speed is 1/1000 or faster and will constantly be moving the lens elements against the direction you are moving your lens which can lead to soft images.

You didn't waste your money on IS, but it does more harm than good when shooting at high shutter speeds IMHO.

Sep 11, 2008 at 07:47 PM

Seth Tower
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p.1 #23 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

eddy.fioretti wrote:
Seth Tower wrote:
IS will NOT ruin your shots at such a high shutter; where did you hear that? I use IS on my lens all the time, from 1/2 of a second to 1/8000, and I've NEVER had it "ruin" a shot. And I'm talking about tens of thousands of images.
You are right that it will have no effect on camera shake at those shutter speeds, however the steady image in the viewfinder makes it much easier to compose and shoot.

it will not sort any effect even if mounted over a tripod? tha manuals (and almost everybody) says that IS should be turned off while shooting with a tripod... your thought please ?

Wait a minute, I didn't mention anything about using a tripod. I would assume that if you're shooting action (like the shots posted in this thread), you're probably NOT using a tripod; monopod? Yes. Tripod? Doubtful. The older IS lenses (28-135 IS, etc) will not work on a tripod. Most of the newer lenses have a sensor that automatically turns off IS if it detects a tripod, including the 70-200 IS. Saying that, I'm not sure why you'd use IS on a tripod, much shoot action with a tripod!

Sep 11, 2008 at 08:50 PM

msalvetti
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p.1 #24 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

eddy,

I think you're on the right track. At this point, you might just need to keep practicing. I don't know if you've cropped the first photos you posted, but even if you haven't, the skiier is pretty small compared to the overall scene. So I can imagine that it is difficult to keep the center point on the subject, and therefore easy to grab focus on the ocean behind.

I still think the center point only is the way to go. If you were to use all the points, I don't think they are close enough together and you might still lose lock on your subject.

Mark

Sep 11, 2008 at 09:35 PM

Pete Klinger
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p.1 #25 · focusing troubles with 40D + 70-200 f2.8 IS

msalvetti wrote:
eddy,

I think you're on the right track. At this point, you might just need to keep practicing. I don't know if you've cropped the first photos you posted, but even if you haven't, the skiier is pretty small compared to the overall scene. So I can imagine that it is difficult to keep the center point on the subject, and therefore easy to grab focus on the ocean behind.

I still think the center point only is the way to go. If you were to use all the points, I don't think they are close enough together and you might still lose lock on your subject.

Mark

Shooting with all points can "confuse" the camera, it also takes longer to acquire a focus. The IS can take some time to settle, which means I shoot on a monopod with IS off, AIServo and sometimes use only the center bottom focus point. Sometimes only the center point, and if I'm leading a car, going left to right for example, the lower right point, to get the camera focusing ahead of a 180mph car!

I never calculated the shutter lag or focus lag when panning with something moving that fast. Just something I try when the nose of the car is going to be leading, where the lower focus point can read it.

Try the lower center focus point and see if that helps. A white board against the deep blue sea, works fine, and the subject is still centered. This will also bring the focus a little ahead of the subject, if you are having a problem with back focusing.

If you are panning, you can get some sharp images at 400 or 500th, and gain depth of field. Faster shutter speed, you start to give up DoF. Most I go with the 40D is iso 200, but I've seen people do fine at higher numbers.

Point is, every item you change to make one factor improve, will degrade something else. You don't need to shoot at 1000th to stop action, unless you want every water droplet frozen. Sometimes motion blur makes the image more alive.

TV - ISO 200, 500th, the aperture will be around f/8 depending on the brightness of the subject. Take it from there and fine tune for your desired results.

Oh yes, I throw away at least 1/3rd of my action photos because the first one in a burst, the camera is still focusing, the second it's usually on, the third is hit or miss, the 4th is in focus again? I often start shooting and let the subject move into the shot I want, then when I'm editing, I toss the first or first and second shots, which are not filling the frame enough.

Edited on Sep 12, 2008 at 06:48 AM

Sep 12, 2008 at 06:42 AM


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