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Lord Fluff
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p.4 #1 · Taser?


I'm not sure why you are talking about falls from horses and guns in the same argument. Guns are designed to kill people - that's what they're for.



Aug 31, 2008 at 03:00 PM
peterradtke
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p.4 #2 · Taser?


gun accidents aren't designed to kill people. I agree some people use guns to kill people (those are the "Bad people" I referred to). Some may say guns are used to protect people, "Good people". Do you refuse to eat meat that was killed with a gun?

The horse is a parody to make the point accidents happen, sorry if that was confusing.

Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 03:10 PM


Aug 31, 2008 at 03:07 PM
Lord Fluff
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p.4 #3 · Taser?


It's not confusing it's just a bit misleading.



Aug 31, 2008 at 03:13 PM
paulhodson
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p.4 #4 · Taser?


But the main use of a gun is to kill people - I don't think the main use of a horse is quite the same.

Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 03:13 PM


Aug 31, 2008 at 03:13 PM
Scott Mosher
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p.4 #5 · Taser?


I have a small army of these guys following me around. They're pretty inexpensive (the pay is nuts!) and nobody will notice them.

As soon as someone comes up to give me trouble (On occasion I have sent them on an Uncle Bob), they get in ready position, I give warning, and if the warning isn't heeded they open fire.

Edit: (Photo isn't mine, but I love it anyway!)


This image is copyrighted by the owner




Edited by Scott Mosher on Aug 31, 2008 at 06:46 PM GMT

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 02:46 AM


Aug 31, 2008 at 03:17 PM
Lord Fluff
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p.4 #6 · Taser?


A few tidbits gleaned from the internet

"Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. Everything else being equal, a reduction in the percentage of households owning firearms should occasion a drop in the homicide rate".

Evidence to the Cullen Inquiry 1996: Thomas Gabor, Professor of Criminology - University of Ottawa

Massacres and Legally-Held Firearms
Worldwide, the majority of recent shooting massacres have been committed with legally-held weapons.



Aug 31, 2008 at 03:18 PM
peterradtke
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p.4 #7 · Taser?


GUN ACCIDENT is what I was referring to. I'm sorry if you don't like my analogy. Were all knives made to kill people? Were all bows and arrows made to kill People? Does everyone who owns a gun intend on killing someone? Some people like target shooting, some people hunt, some people want to protect themselves.


All I'm saying is look at how many people die in car accidents and fight the use of cars.

Aug 31, 2008 at 03:22 PM
peterradtke
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p.4 #8 · Taser?


Ok I respect your tidbit, but You don't get what I'm saying. Homicide=Bad PEOPLE You can't stop Bad PEOPLE with a gun law.

Here's a tidbit about how crime went up 40% when guns were banned in the UK

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/011916.php

thanks

Aug 31, 2008 at 03:28 PM
panos.v
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p.4 #9 · Taser?


I've been to lots of situations where I thought "I could really use my car right now" or "if only I had some proper knives to cook this meal". On the other hand, I never encounter a situation where I though "I could really do with a shotgun right now".


Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 03:36 PM


Aug 31, 2008 at 03:36 PM
Lord Fluff
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p.4 #10 · Taser?


peterradtke wrote:
Ok I respect your tidbit, but You don't get what I'm saying. Homicide=Bad PEOPLE You can't stop Bad PEOPLE with a gun law.

Here's a tidbit about how crime went up 40% when guns were banned in the UK

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/011916.php

thanks


That really is spurious, sorry. Handguns were only available to members of shooting clubs and could only be held at home in certain circumstances. Members of the general public could not buy or hold a handgun anyway, even prior to that law being passed.

Aug 31, 2008 at 03:38 PM
panos.v
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p.4 #11 · Taser?


By the way, your gun to cars analogy works against your arguement. If fewer cars were on the streets, fewer people would die from car accidents. Noone is disputing that, it is common sense. But the practicality outweighs the risk.

Similarly, if fewer guns are on the streets, fewer people will die.

I'd also guess that you have a much higher probability of surviving when you accidentally crash your car than when you accidentally shoot your head (or when your kids do it).

Aug 31, 2008 at 03:43 PM
peterradtke
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p.4 #12 · Taser?


When my kids shoot themselves? Well your a class act! I don't own guns, but if I ever have a gun to my head I hope their will be a law abiding citizen who helps me out. I don't love guns, but you can't have a civil logical discussion with a different point of view without being harsh. I respect your opinion, I just disagree.

By the way I wish no harm on your family.

Aug 31, 2008 at 03:44 PM
snegron
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p.4 #13 · Taser?


Scott Mosher wrote:
I have a small army of these guys following me around. They're pretty inexpensive (the pay is nuts!) and nobody will notice them.

As soon as someone comes up to give me trouble (On occasion I have sent them on an Uncle Bob), they get in ready position, I give warning, and if the warning isn't heeded they open fire.



This image is copyrighted by the owner





LMAO! This has to be one of my favorite posts ever! This thread has spiralled over to the wildest depths of our imagination! I really hope the mods let it continue just to see how creative it gets!

p.s. My hat goes off to you Mr. Scott Mosher! You are a creative genius!

Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 03:54 PM


Aug 31, 2008 at 03:51 PM
peterradtke
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p.4 #14 · Taser?


Thanks for editing your coment Panos.v the way you put your argument now is less ofensive.

Fewer guns on the street fewer people die?

The guns on the street belong to BAD PEOPLE!!!!

I'm not sure I made that point yet, so I'll throw it out there.

If you had a gun would you suddenly have the urge to Kill? I doubt it, I sure wouldn't.

Edited by peterradtke on Aug 31, 2008 at 04:08 PM GMT

Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 04:08 PM


Aug 31, 2008 at 04:03 PM
epuja
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p.4 #15 · Taser?


panos.v wrote:
Just get a credit card.


Thats awesome!

It's interesting that people would rather shoot someone in defense rather than disabling them with pepper spray, and exposing themselves to much less liability.

Anyway, I guess either one would work.. My opinion is pepper spray, like a previous poster mentioned you could spray a number of attackers and not cause lethal damage.

Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 04:06 PM


Aug 31, 2008 at 04:06 PM
peterradtke
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p.4 #16 · Taser?


I have no problem with pepper spray and I liked that story best as well.

Aug 31, 2008 at 04:10 PM
snegron
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p.4 #17 · Taser?


epuja wrote:
panos.v wrote:
Just get a credit card.


Thats awesome!

It's interesting that people would rather shoot someone in defense rather than disabling them with pepper spray, and exposing themselves to much less liability.

Anyway, I guess either one would work.. My opinion is pepper spray, like a previous poster mentioned you could spray a number of attackers and not cause lethal damage.


On two ocassions I was involved in incidents in which pepper spray did not work. On one ocassion the spray simply did not shoot! The valve had gone bad. On another ocassion the bad buy was not phased beacuse he was high on crack. Then there was another time when I had to leave my spray in the trunk of my car on a hot day and it burst. You have no idea how difficult it was to get that car clean!

As far as shooting someone in defense, remember that using a firearm is a last resort only to be used when your life is at risk. Do you think that pepperspray will have any effect on a drugged up person? It usually won't!

Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 04:20 PM


Aug 31, 2008 at 04:19 PM
epuja
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p.4 #18 · Taser?


snegron wrote:
epuja wrote:
panos.v wrote:
Just get a credit card.


Thats awesome!

It's interesting that people would rather shoot someone in defense rather than disabling them with pepper spray, and exposing themselves to much less liability.

Anyway, I guess either one would work.. My opinion is pepper spray, like a previous poster mentioned you could spray a number of attackers and not cause lethal damage.


On two ocassions I was involved in incidents in which pepper spray did not work. On one ocassion the spray simply did not shoot! The valve had gone bad. On another ocassion the bad buy was not phased beacuse he was high on crack. Then there was another time when I had to leave my spray in the trunk of my car on a hot day and it burst. You have no idea how difficult it was to get that car clean!

As far as shooting someone in defense, remember that using a firearm is a last resort only to be used when your life is at risk. Do you think that pepperspray will have any effect on a drugged up person? It usually won't!


Thats very interesting -- I didn't know that fact about pepper spray. Are there other variations that may work on people under the influence of drugs? (mace?)

On the flip side, gun's can also malfunction, not to mention that can be dangerous to oneself (i.e. accidental misfirings)..

Anyway, I'm not arguing one way or the other (I own both), more curious as to the best weapon for general defense--to me pepper spray/mace sounds like the perfect compromise, especially in California where gun carrying is illegal.


Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 07:43 PM


Aug 31, 2008 at 07:34 PM
Craig Gillette
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p.4 #19 · Taser?


One can go to the (US) National Safety Council and get real, unbiased figures, and draw your own conclusions. In the current figures, there were IIRC 649 "accidental" firearms deaths. There are 300 million people in the United States. The risks of an accident are very, very small. One needs to consider that even the anti-gun crowd will discuss the millions and millions of guns out there. Rather frantically most of the time. One has to be extremely careless in handling or in storage to have a negligent discharge or to have a firearm end up in the hands of a child who might have an accident.

Each state has it's own laws. In California it is a variable pretty much solely from where you live as to how easy it is to get a CCW. Some sheriffs and CoPs are very amenable to facilitating the process, some places it's politically sensitive and only favorites and donors get them. Needless to say, criminals seldom worry about the niceties.

The person who uses any kind of force or weapon, let alone deadly force, needs to be aware of the laws of that state (and like anything else, not base their legal knowledge on random musings from photographers on camera forums).

I do some historical re-enacting. We have a wide variety of firearms and edged weapons that we work with. I'm a lot more worried about cutting myself. I used to do some recreational competitive shooting using the same firearms. In all the years involved with all of this I know of one person who accidentally shot himself - with a blank. OTOH, we often have people cut, bruised, splintered, sun-burned, twisted ankles (don't run in "cowboy" boots) and a broken shoulder while doing set-up, take down, or during a performance.

It's up to the individual to make their own decisions based on their own circumstances as to what they are interested or willing to do. The chances of a criminal attempting to rob you while there is an armed guard, or any obvious attention, or a cop around is slim (not impossible though, some criminals are either brave or oblivious). A weapon of any sort isn't a magic shield. People have tried to shoot the President, knowing he (or she) is always guarded by serious security details, they have attacked and robbed armored transit trucks and armed couriers. OTOH, if you are working alone at night or out of sight in parking garages, etc., with thousands of dollars of expensive equipment, being blissfully unaware of the risks is probably not a reasonable position either. No matter what country you are in.

Sep 01, 2008 at 12:20 AM
nikongirl
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p.4 #20 · Taser?


Whoa - I was intially asking about a taser............

now I've decided that I will be getting some pepper spray ............

no guns in my camera bag, thank you, they will be left at home and my kids are educated about them


Yikes!



Sep 01, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Craig Gillette
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p.4 #21 · Taser?


"I'm not sure why you are talking about falls from horses and guns in the same argument. Guns are designed to kill people - that's what they're for."

That's the kind of simplistic argument that isn't usually worth responding to. I seem to recall a number of shooting events in the recent Olympics. They were shooting targets, not killing people.

Sep 01, 2008 at 12:27 AM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.4 #22 · Taser?


Craig Gillette wrote:
"I'm not sure why you are talking about falls from horses and guns in the same argument. Guns are designed to kill people - that's what they're for."

That's the kind of simplistic argument that isn't usually worth responding to. I seem to recall a number of shooting events in the recent Olympics. They were shooting targets, not killing people.


Guns are a bad idea all the way around. No valid reason for a private citizen to won a handgun - notwithstanding the propaganda of the gun lobby.


Sep 01, 2008 at 12:49 AM
Sam Hassas
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p.4 #23 · Taser?


RedWhiteandRed wrote:
Craig Gillette wrote:
"I'm not sure why you are talking about falls from horses and guns in the same argument. Guns are designed to kill people - that's what they're for."

That's the kind of simplistic argument that isn't usually worth responding to. I seem to recall a number of shooting events in the recent Olympics. They were shooting targets, not killing people.


Guns are a bad idea all the way around. No valid reason for a private citizen to won a handgun - notwithstanding the propaganda of the gun lobby.


Out of my cold dead hands Red.

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:28 AM
ksmahgrts
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p.4 #24 · Taser?


i'm not going to get into the owning guns debate. but i will say that it's my belief that all people should be educated about gun safety just like all people should be educated as to how to perform CPR.

kids educated about guns have a greater respect for their lethal potential and are less likely to experiment and seek out guns kept in the home. adults trained in gun safety can be proactive in diffusing potentially dangerous situations (ie is this gun loaded, not pow pow you're dead mr. criminal.)

lack of education and ignorance are not acceptable alternatives to responsible gun ownership.




(as a side note - growing up in Massachusetts i was an 'oh no! guns are bad. never in my house!' gal my entire life until spending several years living down south and marrying a legal gun owner. getting an education and permit, and handling firearms changed my mind entirely. i'm not a gun totin' on the range every weekend gal now, but i realized my attitude was bred of ignorance and fear. that's no way to live.)

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:33 AM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.4 #25 · Taser?


ksmahgrts wrote:
kids educated about guns have a greater respect for their lethal potential and are less likely to experiment and seek out guns kept in the home. adults trained in gun safety can be proactive in diffusing potentially dangerous situations



Houses with no guns have zero likelihood of a death from the non-existent gun.

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:39 AM

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