Been a bit busy on the business side of things and haven't been doing much shooting of late.
Thought I would share a recent experience with the FM contingent, however. I know I am largely preaching to the choir here, but I know there are also a number of wonderful photographers hoping to one day see their work published and would love to pass along this example.
I recently had a client approach me about using an image for a smaller circ. publication (around 50K). They proposed a dollar amount that was very low for the proposed usage, and said it was all they had left in the budget. I responded politely that the figure was quite low, and that I would consult my pricing resource (fotoquote) and get back to them with something that was more in line with standard pricing rates that would hopefully work well for both of us. I responded with a figure that was more in line with going rates and kindly let them know if they weren't able to make that work, I would be happy to work with them on future projects when budget allowed. They responded and said my proposed amount worked fine and I've since emailed them the hi-res image and the deal is sealed.
The end dollar amount was no killing, and I certainly wasn't running home to stuff my new found riches under the mattress. The important part is that, in the end, the client ended up paying more than twice what they originally proposed because I refused to accept a dollar amount that would effectively put me out of business in the long run. I was prepared to walk away on amicable terms if they were unwilling to pay my proposed amount. In the end, I was polite but firm with them and they obliged.
Hope this just serves as a reminder to value your work and time. If you value it, other people will as well.
Jeffrey--
I appreciate your moving this thread to what you consider the appropriate forum. The truth is, however, that most of the photographers that frequent this forum know very well how to run their business. This thread was not intended to inform pros already well-informed on good business practices how to run their already established businesses. It was posted in hopes that those looking to establish themselves in photography as a profession might be able to glean some sort of understanding or knowledge from it. Thx.
Adam Barker wrote:
Jeffrey--
I appreciate your moving this thread to what you consider the appropriate forum. The truth is, however, that most of the photographers that frequent this forum know very well how to run their business. This thread was not intended to inform pros already well-informed on good business practices how to run their already established businesses. It was posted in hopes that those looking to establish themselves in photography as a profession might be able to glean some sort of understanding or knowledge from it. Thx.
I believe that people wishing to move into the professional realm should be reading the PRO forum too. This forum is a perfect match for this thread.
I have similar experiences with the opposite results. This seems to happen often with Wildlife images. There are so many talented amatuers that give away their images or sell them at super low prices that it makes it more difficult to get a reasonable price for your work. A while back I was approached by a big Photo magazine in India. They wanted to do a 8 page spread with an interview of me and featuring 15 of my best images including the cover shot and several full page images. I started at $3500 and went all the way down to $1500. They said that $1500 was an unimaginably high price and that the most they could pay was $200. This happened after they had already put in much work on the project. I walked away from it because it was just too low and my work is worth more. The magazine claims to be the largest photo mag in India and is owned by Forbes. You would think they would be willing to pay more for quality work.
BTW: I looked at your website and you have some really nice stuff.
Great post Adam. That part about...'all they had left in the budget'...was obviously just a bargaining tactic. I guess sometimes it can be true though. To add to your message (even though I know 'you' know this), had you taken their first offer, they would think that they could always come to you with a lowball price. Food for thought.
JimN wrote:
They said that $1500 was an unimaginably high price and that the most they could pay was $200. This happened after they had already put in much work on the project. I walked away from it because it was just too low and my work is worth more. The magazine claims to be the largest photo mag in India and is owned by Forbes. You would think they would be willing to pay more for quality work.
Keep in mind that an annual salary for white-collar workers in many parts of India is something like $6,000. I don't think this was about your prices being too high or their budget being too low, just a mismatch of economies. It happens all the time when doing business internationally...it's why UK clients love paying me in dollars - it makes me ridiculously cheap for them.
shatterkiss wrote:
Keep in mind that an annual salary for white-collar workers in many parts of India is something like $6,000. I don't think this was about your prices being too high or their budget being too low, just a mismatch of economies. It happens all the time when doing business internationally...it's why UK clients love paying me in dollars - it makes me ridiculously cheap for them.
Salaries may be much lower in India, but the magazine sells for a price similar to a US magazine and has a large circulation. I think they just won't pay the price because each month they find some up and coming talented photographer that will work for free.
Jim--
Inevitably, I think you're just going to run into these types of situations regardless. I have had many opportunities where the client didn't meet my proposed rate, and that was that. I have a hard time believing that mag was legitimately owned by Forbes as I have worked with Forbes publications in the past and they have paid well.
Regardless, the clients who will pay a respectable amount, and will in turn respect you and your profession are the clients you really want to hold on to. Best of luck.
Adam Barker wrote:
Jim--
Inevitably, I think you're just going to run into these types of situations regardless. I have had many opportunities where the client didn't meet my proposed rate, and that was that. I have a hard time believing that mag was legitimately owned by Forbes as I have worked with Forbes publications in the past and they have paid well.
Regardless, the clients who will pay a respectable amount, and will in turn respect you and your profession are the clients you really want to hold on to. Best of luck.
I agree completely, Adam. I make most of my income conducting workshops, so the impact of the market being flooded with free or very cheap images doesn't hurt me as bad as some nature photgraphers. The magazine in question IS owned by Forbes and they claim to be the largest photo mag in India. I'll continue to stand my ground in situations like this, but it gets frustrating at times. I'm glad your situation turned out well. I've had some good results along with the bad too.
It really burned me that a major magazine would expect me to supply the feature story and images for their mag while saying the most they could pay me was $200. They get that much for the smallest ad on the worst page location in the magazine. Most of the big companies that sell photo related stuff advertise in this mag. They feature a photgrapher each month, so now when I see the mag I know another photographer has sold out.
Unfortunately, the digital age and the attitudes of many who use the internet ("data wants to be free") have turned photography into a commodity. Everyone thinks anyone with a digital camera can get the same results.
I don't make my primary living from photography, but my father was a pro and I can't even fathom how bitter he would be if he were alive to see what's happened to photographers.
I applaud those who resist the demands to give away their services and skill. I've had a music magazine want my photos, but the price they offered was less than one annual subscription to the magazine. We finally worked out a deal, but still a lousy one for me. They sent a copy of the issue that had my photographs FedEx. This enraged me because the FedEx charges, which I'm sure they use as a matter of course, were higher than what they first offered me for a photo.
RazorTM; While you are think that aspipring professionals should be reading the professional forum, those aspiring to professional staus might not consider themselves to far enough advanced to do so.
I have similar experiences with the opposite results. This seems to happen often with Wildlife images. There are so many talented amatuers that give away their images or sell them at super low prices that it makes it more difficult to get a reasonable price for your work. A while back I was approached by a big Photo magazine in India. They wanted to do a 8 page spread with an interview of me and featuring 15 of my best images including the cover shot and several full page images. I started at $3500 and went all the way down to $1500. They said that $1500 was an unimaginably high price and that the most they could pay was $200. This happened after they had already put in much work on the project. I walked away from it because it was just too low and my work is worth more. The magazine claims to be the largest photo mag in India and is owned by Forbes. You would think they would be willing to pay more for quality work.
BTW: I looked at your website and you have some really nice stuff. ...Show more →
that was unfortunate and irritating at the same time. I do work for printed magazines and I see this "trend" accelerating lately. But the responsibility goes to the younger editors, willing to sacrifice a good stable and solid relationship with us to look good to their superiors.
The vast majority of the editors know very well the difference between a consolidated provider (us, photographers) and the "occasional" ones. Let's keep in mind that the "pictures" are in fact the main asset they have to sell.
problem is that the entire printed segment doesn't sell anymore... that's also the problem. And the internet is what it is.. a jungle
