1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

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apdieb
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p.3 #1 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Daan B wrote:
Iberian wrote:
adamdewilde wrote:
I've never had sharper images in my life, and the focus is dead on constantly for me....

Of course I only shoot studio, I will try this whole 135mm theory on my rooftop though.

Make sure you get the chimney running towards you in bright sunlight...

Not necessarily... I get the same results under all weather conditions and angles of light.

LMAO!

Aug 15, 2008 at 08:38 PM

Andrew Gough
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p.3 #2 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Hrow wrote:
I think it is important to realize that Daan is using a 1DsMkIII and not a 1DMkIII. Having owned both and multiple copies of the 1DMkIII I can tell you from experience that there is a huge difference in the AF performance between the two. It is important not lump them together.

For the vast majority of my rather eclectic shooting, the 1DsMkIII is dead on. I would like to see better low contrast performance and in large part, that is the point of this post. Daan has found what I have as well, that certain low contrast targets can fool the system. I would prefer that that wasn't the case but that is a problem that is both historical and shared by Nikon. Differences between the two system are of degree not of kind.

We can bitch and moan about it all we like and get OOF pictures or we can adjust the way we work to better match the strengths of the camera and get in focus pictures. I think that was all he was suggesting and I think he has a very valid point.

PS. My comments apply to the 1DsMkIII only. The AF on the 1DMkIII just totally sucked on the three bodies I had and I still feel that numerous members of the Canon management team should be tossed from the roof for the way they treated their customers.

I could not agree more.

I also wonder if flare is part of the issue at f/2.0 with the bright background.

DaanB.

I would suggest re-doing the test on a brick wall of equal distance that is under overcast light. Bright sunlight would give a very contrasty image for the AF to work with.

Edited on Aug 15, 2008 at 11:22 PM

Aug 15, 2008 at 11:21 PM

kdphotography
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p.3 #3 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

apdieb wrote:
I appreciate this user feedback as well. I am still struggling with AF in a lot of situations with my 1DMKIII. Latest issues involved a model (pro sports cheerleaders) shoot on a yacht with strong bright backgrounds.

I just dunno about this. If I had a bunch of pro sports cheerleaders jumping up and down in front of me---- I might have trouble focusing after awhile too......

Aug 15, 2008 at 11:41 PM

Markuson
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p.3 #4 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Bruce Sawle wrote:
Markuson wrote:
dhphoto wrote:
Markuson wrote:

That actually wasn't railing against Canon. It was railing against attitudes that accept the unacceptable...and attitudes that assume the only severe problems are related to and caused by experience. It is assumptive, arrogant, ill-informed and simply incorrect.

You are fairly new here in terms of postings and perhaps might want to rethink the tone of your replies if you want to hang around.

Personally speaking (and one can only speak personally) I haven't had cause to question the performance of my cameras. That DOESN'T make me wrong.

The fact that I don't immediately agree with your pejorative postings doesn't make me wrong either, just irritated.

I understand. Let me give you a little history so I'm not such a stranger.

I was one of the first to identify 1D3 AF issues personally with Canon Irvine's #1 tech from Japan. I have since endured COUNTLESS folks who...since day ONE...have denied (along with Canon) the existence of the issue. In EVERY single instance, I have been shown to be on the correct side of the issue, despite the endless denials of people like you...ever since last May/June. I've grown tired of it, and my ire here is the result.

I STILL have a broken 1D3 and many many others do as well. Every time people start singing the same old "experience" denials, it only adds to Canon's propensity to deny.

--They denied there was an issue from the very beginning...
Yet, they finally issued a firmware "fix" last July.
--I immediately discovered that the firmware "improvement" was a bust.
--Denials continued...but...it slowly became clear to others there was a problem still.
Then once again...
--Canon said nothing for a long time.
Then...
--Canon announced the very expensive (for them) "Mirror Fix."
BUT... Once again...
--I clearly noted that it still was not fixed.
--More denials and slams on me followed...but then...
--RG again weighed in and his finding agreed with me completely once again.
--Canon remained silent, and failed to deliver their promised response to RG's report.
--Finally, Canon AGAIN issued a firmware attempt (1.2.3) to "fix" what they...once again...had continually denied was not broken.
--I noted continued problems.
--More denials
--RG finally did his most extensive testing to date...once again confirming what I has said all along.
--No response yet from Canon.

Are you seeing a pattern here

??
Canon deny everything until they perceive they are forced to act.
Canon remains in denial...and people such as yourself prop up their denials.....one......more..............time.

I think you (those of your mindset) might want to consider that I am batting 1000, here, before you assume that I'm wrong. I haven't been wrong yet...even though hundreds like you have wrongly denied the issue in the face of continual and unsuccessful attempts to "fix" what supposedly was never broken (if you take the repeated denials at face value).

I am sorry that you had to field the brunt of my frustration. I'm sure it seemed personal, but I shouldn't have made it sound that way. The truth is that my reaction was not intended at you as a singular figure, but as a representation to the endless denials that have plagued and compounded the distinct LACK of urgency and honesty Canon has shown in this on-going issue.

Markuson

Edited by Markuson on Aug 15, 2008 at 04:33 AM GMT

You have a lot of nerve!! I guess you are the self proclaimed God of Photography and no one else here knows what there doing. We are just beginners and we have no clue what a sharp in focus photo is. Maybe the problem is we who are in denial don’t have unrealistic expectations, or we have adapted to the focus of the MK III.

Where did I claim people didn't know what they are doing??
I am specifically reacting against that very thing being claimed about me! Not the reverse, as you imply.

This is very simple:
-If I put my 1D3 and 500 f4 L lens on a heavy-duty carbon fiber tripod and Wimberly head...in sunlight...and point it at an easy-contrast tree-trunk...with properly adjusted microadjustment...updated firmware, and all of Canon's supposed "fixes"...in ONE-SHOT mode...(did I mention Wimberly-mounted and rock-solid??)...it should NOT look like this:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Aug 16, 2008 at 03:23 AM

Jeff
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p.3 #5 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

HEY! How'd you steal one of my pictures!

Aug 16, 2008 at 04:27 AM

ghozer
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p.3 #6 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Agree with Markuson. There's no excuse for the camera not focusing well. This is precisely why I have "downgraded" to a Mark II N from two different Mark IIIs. I have the 1Ds3 and while I haven't noticed any problems I also don't really use it for wildlife shooting other than animal portraits. Quite frankly I don't trust the 1D3 for fast wildlife. I'll take the II N and its 8.2 megapixels and know the focus is going to work. After about 6 months to a year after the 1D4 is released I'll think about buying it. The 1D3 is a disaster. I hope someone got fired over this.

Aug 16, 2008 at 04:51 AM

Curator
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p.3 #7 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

ghozer wrote:
Agree with Markuson. There's no excuse for the camera not focusing well. This is precisely why I have "downgraded" to a Mark II N from two different Mark IIIs. I have the 1Ds3 and while I haven't noticed any problems I also don't really use it for wildlife shooting other than animal portraits. Quite frankly I don't trust the 1D3 for fast wildlife. I'll take the II N and its 8.2 megapixels and know the focus is going to work. After about 6 months to a year after the 1D4 is released I'll think about buying it. The 1D3 is a disaster. I hope someone got fired over this.

Kind of makes you wonder why any professional would choose to take this camera to the Olympics...

Aug 16, 2008 at 05:05 AM

Kagetsu
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p.3 #8 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

On the 1Ds III... I think I posted that I wasn't happy with low light performance a few weeks back. Well, last night I finally got around to looking through the custom function settings for the focussing... played with it a little, (major thing done was focus hunt turned off) and now it brilliant at night. Haven't actually looked at the results yet, but will do tonight. But just from the shooting last night, I dare say that almost 90% a-okay.

Aug 16, 2008 at 05:26 AM

ghozer
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p.3 #9 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

There's no doubt some work fine. There's also no doubt some don't. For $4500 that's pathetic.

Aug 16, 2008 at 05:27 AM

Daan B
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p.3 #10 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Kagetsu wrote:
On the 1Ds III... I think I posted that I wasn't happy with low light performance a few weeks back. Well, last night I finally got around to looking through the custom function settings for the focussing... played with it a little, (major thing done was focus hunt turned off) and now it brilliant at night. Haven't actually looked at the results yet, but will do tonight. But just from the shooting last night, I dare say that almost 90% a-okay.

What C.Fn settings did you adjust in order for the cam to give better low light performance? I am curious about the results

Aug 16, 2008 at 05:47 AM

Daan B
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p.3 #11 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Andrew Gough wrote:
I could not agree more.

I also wonder if flare is part of the issue at f/2.0 with the bright background.

DaanB.

I would suggest re-doing the test on a brick wall of equal distance that is under overcast light. Bright sunlight would give a very contrasty image for the AF to work with.

I did the same shoot both under sunny and overcast conditions. I didn't see any changes. Not even when the sun shined full on the side of the chimney facing me. About flare, I took the shots in the OP with the sun coming from behind (sun was behind clouds also). There is also no flare present in the pictures.

I think it is just that the small AF sensor in combination with the "muddy" contrast of the bricks at that distance (about 25 meters) that is fooling the AF. In other words, it just can't read enough contrast of the bricks at 25 meters for a proper lock. Not enough details to lock on.

I could try the same shot at different distances, see if that would make any difference. I know that when shooting at 1-5 meters I don't have AF locking problems when aiming over/on top of a object. The question is, at what distance do these lock-on problems start to appear when aiming over/on top of the subject.

Edited on Aug 16, 2008 at 06:02 AM

Aug 16, 2008 at 06:02 AM

Daan B
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p.3 #12 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Markuson wrote:
Note the strange ghosting effect off of the left side of the trunk edge (yet another issue Canon has not admitted to, but that has been heavily documented on this and other forums, as well as by numerous respected reviewers).

By the way... The ghosting problem seems to be random, and can happen at ANY time for no reason. -Even shot to identical, tripod-mounted shot.

I welcome comments.

The result is undeniable.

That doesn't look right

I think your 1D3 is broken... Either a hardware or software malfunction. I had that same kind of weird AF shit with my previous 1Ds3. Only with different lenses (I don't own a 500L). Nothing helped. I even got it and my lenses calibrated by Canon Service three times. The weird, erratic and random mis-focus remained. In the end they replaced it with a new 1Ds3 that functions fine.

Edited on Aug 16, 2008 at 06:16 AM

Aug 16, 2008 at 06:09 AM

Andrew Gough
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p.3 #13 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Daan B wrote:
Andrew Gough wrote:
I could not agree more.

I also wonder if flare is part of the issue at f/2.0 with the bright background.

DaanB.

I would suggest re-doing the test on a brick wall of equal distance that is under overcast light. Bright sunlight would give a very contrasty image for the AF to work with.

I did the same shoot both under sunny and overcast conditions. I didn't see any changes. Not even when the sun shined full on the side of the chimney facing me. About flare, I took the shots in the OP with the sun coming from behind (sun was behind clouds also). There is also no flare present in the pictures.

I think it is just that the small AF sensor in combination with the "muddy" contrast of the bricks at that distance (about 25 meters) that is fooling the AF. In other words, it just can't read enough contrast of the bricks at 25 meters for a proper lock. Not enough details to lock on.

I could try the same shot at different distances, see if that would make any difference. I know that when shooting at 1-5 meters I don't have AF locking problems when aiming over/on top of a object. The question is, at what distance do these lock-on problems start to appear when aiming over/on top of the subject.

If it does not focus with the chimney under full sun, then I would say that your camera is defective, and you should return it to Canon.

Markuson, you have attempted to hijack this thread with your AF problems on a different camera. While I sympathize and agree with you, you really should start another thread to voice your complaints.

Edited on Aug 16, 2008 at 12:35 PM

Aug 16, 2008 at 12:32 PM

brainiac
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p.3 #14 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Hrow wrote:
Iberian wrote:
HROW: That is interesting that there is a difference because in theory the systems are the same. I wonder if simply having 2x the resolution means that it is able to evaluate more pixels to run through the algorithms or if there are some unreleased changes we don't know about?

The theory behind the AF may be the same but many of the components are and have to be different simply to account for the different sensor sizes.

No. Canon economises by using the same af components in both pro bodies. That's why the 1D3 AF points take up most of the frame, when the 1Ds3 points only occupy the center. It's mostly the same AF system.

Rob Galbraith's latest report suggests that any differences in performance between the two probably result from frame rate and software tuning.

I use a 1Ds3 mostly in manual focus with a Canon manual focus screen. I have never trusted AF, so the quirks/failings of this system don't bother me too much. However, I don't shoot sport. When I need maximum accuracy and have time, I use liveview at 10x magnification.

The 1Ds3 is a great camera and there are other reasons to buy it than AF reliability. The extent to which AF perfection matters will probably depend on the type of photography you specialise in.

Aug 16, 2008 at 12:54 PM

Daan B
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p.3 #15 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Andrew Gough wrote:
If it does not focus with the chimney under full sun, then I would say that your camera is defective, and you should return it to Canon.

There is simply not enough distinguishable detail to make a proper contrast reading at those distances. The area covered by the AF sensor when focusing on the middle of the chimney is too uniform in its appearance (only "muddy" contrast of bricks and morter). When aiming for the edges, all is in focus. If the cam was defect, it shouldn't be doing that either. I think you are on the wrong track here

Edited on Aug 16, 2008 at 02:35 PM

Aug 16, 2008 at 02:33 PM

Kagetsu
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p.3 #16 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Daan B wrote:
What C.Fn settings did you adjust in order for the cam to give better low light performance? I am curious about the results

The C.FnIII settings are:

5 = 1
6 = 4
13 = 1

All others = 0
2, 16, 17 = 0.

Function 5 is the one that made all the difference though, as the others are effectively superficial.

Just gettings results now, and will post shortly.

Aug 16, 2008 at 02:49 PM

kdphotography
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p.3 #17 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

ghozer wrote:
There's no doubt some work fine. There's also no doubt some don't. For $4500 that's pathetic.

And that's why Markuson is so angry. (rightfully so)

I do believe that companies should stand behind their products----Markuson deserves either a repair or another camera body, so he too can enjoy what I believe to be the best DSLR to date. (Okay---so he needs the 1DS Mark III...)

For now, I'd suggest resetting the lens microadjustment features to -0- on the camera body---and starting over with the Cfn settings..... If indeed it is a QC issue (as I believe) setting the microadjustment feature may hinder and not help the situation. It is the lack of the AF system to consistently lock focus on a fixed point. By using the microadjustment feature---it is difficult to test the AF system. My suggestion is to use the microadjustment feature only if you are confident in the consistency of your AF system and you feel sharpness could be better with a particular lens.

Fingers-crossed for you, Markuson-----because I want to be really confident the next time Canon comes around wanting me to empty my wallet of $8K.....

Aug 16, 2008 at 02:56 PM

Daan B
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p.3 #18 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Kagetsu wrote:
Daan B wrote:
What C.Fn settings did you adjust in order for the cam to give better low light performance? I am curious about the results

So basically you tell the cam not to re-focus. Did you use AI Servo? Interesting to see if that will benefit low light AF. I will do some testing myself. Please post the findings on your results

Edited on Aug 16, 2008 at 03:00 PM

Aug 16, 2008 at 02:57 PM

kdphotography
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p.3 #19 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Btw, I don't have the same Cfn settings that you ----but my 1Ds Mark III performs like a stunner in dark conditions. It is able to lock focus in places (and quickly!) that I would never even dream of taking a photo---and where image quality would certainly reflect that. In otherwords, the AF in dark situations performs beyond the capabilities of the camera to produce a suitable image.

Aug 16, 2008 at 03:04 PM

Kagetsu
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p.3 #20 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

http://www.madmilkdud.com/drags08

I have an open directory at above.

All images on 1Ds III, all exif intact. Note that all shots on the stip are taken with the 70-200 IS f/2.8L. All shots shown are the first shot using AI autofocus, at ISO 1600 in AV mode.
Focus point is centre point.

First lots of shots are for other people, but you're welcome to see. Even at relatively low resolution that these are (crops will come later) the track shots are clearly in focus with the centre point. Lighting while the photo's make it appear that it is good, it's far from it. The bird flying on the track is spot on with focus and is a one off shot (first and only shot fired). Considering the effort that would have gone into the AI shot, it's turned out remarkably well.

EDIT: Before I forget, I was in a very I couldn't care less mode last night, and was only there to get one photo (the cruddy looking white wagon) for a friend. ^_^'

Don't expect perfect photo's, no post processing has occured.

Edited on Aug 16, 2008 at 03:28 PM

Aug 16, 2008 at 03:21 PM

Johnny Bravo
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p.3 #21 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

And you, amaze me.

I've had an 'S' for almost a year and use it primarily for birds in absolutely the most trying conditions. It's a phenomenal camera

90% of this talk is coming from people who've never owned one, and the other ten percent is coming from people who obviously can't operate one.

Markuson wrote:
I am absolutely and continually ASTONISHED at the level of dismissive attitudes I see from photographers regarding this absolutely UNACCEPTABLE performance in a top-level camera.

Some seem to think "top-tier" means you should be some sort of bizarra AF expert before you should expect it to work. The OPPOSITE should be true.

I've used numerous 1 Series cameras, and NEVER has AF been a CHORE.
NEVER has AF been difficult.
NEVER...until I bought the 1D3.
It is SCREWED UP, people!!
-And no amount of excuses...explanations...and outright blindness will change this fact!

You guys just AMAZE ME!!!!!

Sheesh.
"AF is always difficult at infinity" What the HECK??

What planet are you from!??

That has NEVER been a problem unless pointing at a detail-free blue sky!
What the heck is happening to photog mentality these days that so many will come up with these absolutely stunning and ridiculous excuses for a $4500 MESS??

I've had it!!
(can you tell?)

M

dhphoto wrote:
Hi Daan, I don't know any autofocus system that I have found 100% reliable at infinity.

I've often blamed the lenses, but I just don't think AF is 'designed' to work at or near the end of the range.

I did some test shots recently on my 450D with several lenses and when focused at infinity (using AF) they all gave slightly different 'infinity' distances (that is a little bit back from infinity).

I ended up using liveview to get a precise result. At nearer distances the lenses all worked fine.

David

Aug 17, 2008 at 02:09 AM

John Black
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p.3 #22 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Markuson wrote:
Where did I claim people didn't know what they are doing??
I am specifically reacting against that very thing being claimed about me! Not the reverse, as you imply.

This is very simple:
-If I put my 1D3 and 500 f4 L lens on a heavy-duty carbon fiber tripod and Wimberly head...in sunlight...and point it at an easy-contrast tree-trunk...with properly adjusted microadjustment...updated firmware, and all of Canon's supposed "fixes"...in ONE-SHOT mode...(did I mention Wimberly-mounted and rock-solid??)...it should NOT look like this:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Note the strange ghosting effect off of the left side of the trunk edge (yet another issue Canon has not admitted to, but that has been heavily documented on this and other forums, as well as by numerous respected reviewers).

By the way... The ghosting problem seems to be random, and can happen at ANY time for no reason. -Even shot to identical, tripod-mounted shot.

I welcome comments.

The result is undeniable.

We have what looks to be a similar sized tree in our backyard which has wonderful contrast on its bark during golden hour. I've used that tree of 1000's of test pictures - and 100's and 100's of times the cameras have back focused on the edge of the tree, not on the center of trunk. Sometimes they get it right, but most often not. I've tested the 1D2, 1Ds, 1Ds2, 1Ds3, 40D, 10D and just about every Canon mid range tele & tele zoom on that stupid tree. And many times camera bodies and lenses went off to Canon (Irvine) for calibration. More or less the same results on their return. These same cameras performed excellent on real world shooting, so using tree trunks as test targets isn't the best subject. I'm not saying that you don't know how to use your gear, just that the test scenario isn't very reliable.

Aug 17, 2008 at 07:22 AM

Glassbottle
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p.3 #23 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Johnny Bravo wrote:

90% of this talk is coming from people who've never owned one, and the other ten percent is coming from people who obviously can't operate one.

Provocative and probably untrue. I'm satisfied with the AF of my 1Ds3 but some of the critics may well have defective cameras. You can't know that they don't.

Aug 17, 2008 at 11:39 AM

Jeff
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p.3 #24 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

John Black wrote:
"...These same cameras performed excellent on real world shooting, so using tree trunks as test targets isn't the best subject. I'm not saying that you don't know how to use your gear, just that the test scenario isn't very reliable."

That's all good and well, unless of course your subject happens to be a tree trunk. Unfortunately, many 'real-world' subjects happen to be similar to tree trunks, which my 1Ds, 30D, and 40D can focus reliably upon. I'm not sure why a 'more advanced' AF system would require an edge to get accurate AF.

Johnny Bravo wrote:
90% of this talk is coming from people who've never owned one, and the other ten percent is coming from people who obviously can't operate one.

Nothing like stirring the pot, just for the sake of sitting back and watching what happens.

Aug 17, 2008 at 12:02 PM

Mike Tuomey
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p.3 #25 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Johnny Bravo, judging from your response, you must be a skilled user of your Mk III. Since I'm interested in responses to the question asked by the OP - advice on using the Mk III for those coming from lower tech AF (esp earlier 1D AF tech) - would you consider offering your insights for those of us who don't possess your level of skill and have had trouble with Mk III cameras?

Edited by Mike Tuomey on Aug 17, 2008 at 01:38 PM GMT

Edited on Aug 17, 2008 at 01:38 PM

Aug 17, 2008 at 12:22 PM


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