1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Moderated by: guardian

Visit the FM Store · Image Upload · Buy & Sell
FM Forum Rules
Canon SLRs, primes, and zooms lenses reviews

FM Forums | Canon-mount SLRs | Join Image Upload
1

3 4 end

Markuson
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #1 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Mike Tuomey wrote:
No, I'm not alarmed, but I am very disappointed.

I could make very good use of the 1D III's improved high iso performance for my night sports shooting under poor light. I'm not a pro but I'm willing to part with the funds to obtain the files the MK III produces. But I shoot bursts at subjects moving at speed in youth field sports, often unpredictably and at difficult angles in tough light, pretty much the kind of shooting where the MK III's AF is weakest, if you believe RG. So I'm on the fence, big time.

I'd love to move up from my 1D IIN for the Mk III's high iso performance. At 3200 the MK IIN can be ratty, even with NI or NN in post. Mk III is clearly a stop better in that regard. But the Mk III I tried (only one) produced consistently large percentages of OOF shots in bursts when I tested it. That kind of error rate doesn't cut it for me.

I prefer not to rail against canon, a la markuson. That's just my style. But then I guess I'm a duffer stuck with old tech, if dhphoto is right. I sure wasn't feeling like a duffer when I moved to a MK IIN from my Mk II, and likewise when I moved from my 1D classic to a 1D Mk II.

So I'm kinda back to Daan's original question. Can anyone articulate a clear and simple workaround for these focus anomalies, or whatever term you wish to use, for those of us moving from earlier generation Canon AF tech? I'd really appreciate the pro view, if anyone is able/willing to share.

That actually wasn't railing against Canon. It was railing against attitudes that accept the unacceptable...and attitudes that assume the only severe problems are related to and caused by experience. It is assumptive, arrogant, ill-informed and simply incorrect.

Aug 15, 2008 at 11:22 AM

dhphoto
Online
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #2 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Markuson wrote:

That actually wasn't railing against Canon. It was railing against attitudes that accept the unacceptable...and attitudes that assume the only severe problems are related to and caused by experience. It is assumptive, arrogant, ill-informed and simply incorrect.

You are fairly new here in terms of postings and perhaps might want to rethink the tone of your replies if you want to hang around.

Personally speaking (and one can only speak personally) I haven't had cause to question the performance of my cameras. That DOESN'T make me wrong.

The fact that I don't immediately agree with your pejorative postings doesn't make me wrong either, just irritated.

Edited on Aug 15, 2008 at 11:41 AM

Aug 15, 2008 at 11:39 AM

Pixel Perfect
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.2 #3 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Daan B wrote:
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Daan I'm annoyed because I wanted to update my 1D II the day the 1D III shipped but I always hold off on new releases. I'm glad I did and I have every right to be annoyed when I'm thinking of slapping down that sort of money. My 1D II is now 4 yo and I would like to update it and IMO their is still no suitable replacement.

I'd love to know why an engineer thought giving an AF confirmation for an OOF shot was a good idea. Is that in the manual. Apart from this quirk, nothing you said is new. In the chimney example I'd never place the AF point over the centre of the dark brickwork, always on the edge and would not trust the beep if placed elsewhere.

Daan as long as your happy with your camera that's all that matters.

Whayne, I understand your frustration. I have had my share of it too. Maybe to you the chimney example presented nothing new... so why such a strong reaction in the first place? Anyway, coming from a 5D, to me it is new. Maybe I am lucky not coming from a D2 cam, so I don't carry all that history with me. So maybe for me it is easier to be openminded to the mkIII AF. I am pretty happy with my 1Ds3 and have no regrets purchasing one. I hope you will find a suitable upgrade cam soon

Daan I jumped the gun a bit as I quickly homed in on the point about the AF confirmation beep even when not focused. I just saw this as another bad result for a mk III. I didn't realise this was your first camera with the 45pt AF system - I've been using it since 2002 starting with the EOS 3.

Aug 15, 2008 at 11:43 AM

Daan B
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #4 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Mike Tuomey wrote:
I'm kinda back to Daan's original question. Can anyone articulate a clear and simple workaround for these focus anomalies, or whatever term you wish to use, for those of us moving from earlier generation Canon AF tech? I'd really appreciate the pro view, if anyone is able/willing to share.

Mike, I agree with you... Can we go back to the content and concentrate on the question how to deal with the weaknesses in the mkIII's AF... Tips & tricks please

Edited on Aug 15, 2008 at 12:14 PM

Aug 15, 2008 at 12:13 PM

Markuson
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #5 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

dhphoto wrote:
Markuson wrote:

That actually wasn't railing against Canon. It was railing against attitudes that accept the unacceptable...and attitudes that assume the only severe problems are related to and caused by experience. It is assumptive, arrogant, ill-informed and simply incorrect.

You are fairly new here in terms of postings and perhaps might want to rethink the tone of your replies if you want to hang around.

Personally speaking (and one can only speak personally) I haven't had cause to question the performance of my cameras. That DOESN'T make me wrong.

The fact that I don't immediately agree with your pejorative postings doesn't make me wrong either, just irritated.

I understand. Let me give you a little history so I'm not such a stranger.

I was one of the first to identify 1D3 AF issues personally with Canon Irvine's #1 tech from Japan. I have since endured COUNTLESS folks who...since day ONE...have denied (along with Canon) the existence of the issue. In EVERY single instance, I have been shown to be on the correct side of the issue, despite the endless denials of people like you...ever since last May/June. I've grown tired of it, and my ire here is the result.

I STILL have a broken 1D3 and many many others do as well. Every time people start singing the same old "experience" denials, it only adds to Canon's propensity to deny.

--They denied there was an issue from the very beginning...
Yet, they finally issued a firmware "fix" last July.
--I immediately discovered that the firmware "improvement" was a bust.
--Denials continued...but...it slowly became clear to others there was a problem still.
Then once again...
--Canon said nothing for a long time.
Then...
--Canon announced the very expensive (for them) "Mirror Fix."
BUT... Once again...
--I clearly noted that it still was not fixed.
--More denials and slams on me followed...but then...
--RG again weighed in and his finding agreed with me completely once again.
--Canon remained silent, and failed to deliver their promised response to RG's report.
--Finally, Canon AGAIN issued a firmware attempt (1.2.3) to "fix" what they...once again...had continually denied was not broken.
--I noted continued problems.
--More denials
--RG finally did his most extensive testing to date...once again confirming what I has said all along.
--No response yet from Canon.

Are you seeing a pattern here

??
Canon deny everything until they perceive they are forced to act.
Canon remains in denial...and people such as yourself prop up their denials.....one......more..............time.

I think you (those of your mindset) might want to consider that I am batting 1000, here, before you assume that I'm wrong. I haven't been wrong yet...even though hundreds like you have wrongly denied the issue in the face of continual and unsuccessful attempts to "fix" what supposedly was never broken (if you take the repeated denials at face value).

I am sorry that you had to field the brunt of my frustration. I'm sure it seemed personal, but I shouldn't have made it sound that way. The truth is that my reaction was not intended at you as a singular figure, but as a representation to the endless denials that have plagued and compounded the distinct LACK of urgency and honesty Canon has shown in this on-going issue.

Markuson

Edited by Markuson on Aug 15, 2008 at 04:33 AM GMT

Edited on Aug 15, 2008 at 12:33 PM

Aug 15, 2008 at 12:17 PM

Daan B
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #6 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Pixel Perfect wrote:
Daan I jumped the gun a bit as I quickly homed in on the point about the AF confirmation beep even when not focused. I just saw this as another bad result for a mk III. I didn't realise this was your first camera with the 45pt AF system - I've been using it since 2002 starting with the EOS 3.

Yep, the Canon 5D was the first Canon camera I have ever owned... Before that I have always been a Nikon-guy

I did play around a little with the EOS 3 before I bought a 1Ds3 though. So the Canon 45pt AF system wasn't entirely new to me. But all that doesn't matter, since the mkIII AF is newly designed too.

I guess if you are used to doing things a certain way since 2002, it must be hard to adapt to a new way of doing things. But what if this is it? What are you going to do if Canon doesn't change the general design of the mkIII AF and implements it (with maybe some small adjustments) in the mkIV?

Aug 15, 2008 at 12:26 PM

kdphotography
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #7 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Those that truly have bad examples of the 1d/1DS Mark III have every right to be dissappointed----and angry if the focus issue is unresolved. More than likely it does point out a QC issue within Canon that I do hope they address. My sense is that yet another firmware update will bring a bit more satisfaction to the issue.

That being said, I do wonder how many complaints of "focus" issues are from users that have only picked up the Mark III, and not put it into use more than a few times. I don't want to dilute the significance of any company not addressing faulty product issues, but user error does come into play. I would also think that there are fewer 1Ds Mark III complaints coming from photographers like me who shoot primarily in the studio doing commerical and portrait work and only occasional sports, than 1D Mark III users (sports/wildlife) who are more likely to be placed in conditions more susteptible to focusing issues.

Don't confuse an obvious shortcoming of Canon's lack of quality control with becoming more familiar and shooting with a particular camera body. (And please----no intentions here at all aimed at accusing anyone in this thread of not knowing how to use their Mark III).

Those that have good examples (like me) of the Mark III are lucky, but don't rest easy. Will we all be so confident to open our wallets next time when the inevitable Mark IV is released?

ken

Edited on Aug 15, 2008 at 02:26 PM

Aug 15, 2008 at 02:19 PM

Daan B
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #8 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

FWIW

I redid the shots I posted in the OP using the following methods:

1) focus in the middle of the chimney using One Shot with the following C.Fn settings:
C.FnIII-8-0 (disable AF point expansion): still OOF
C.FnIII-8-1 (enable AF point expansion L/R): still OOF
C.FnIII-8-2 (enable AF point selection area): still OOF

2) focus in the middle of the chimney using AI Servo with the following C.Fn settings:
C.FnIII-8-0 (disable AF point expansion): still OOF
C.FnIII-8-1 (enable AF point expansion L/R): still OOF
C.FnIII-8-2 (enable AF point selection area): still OOF

3) focus on the edge of the chimney using One Shot with the following C.Fn settings:
C.FnIII-8-0 (disable AF point expansion): IN FOCUS
C.FnIII-8-1 (enable AF point expansion L/R): Some in focus / some oof
C.FnIII-8-2 (enable AF point selection area): still OOF

4) focus on the edge of the chimney using AI Servo with the following C.Fn settings:
C.FnIII-8-0 (disable AF point expansion): IN FOCUS
C.FnIII-8-1 (enable AF point expansion L/R): IN FOCUS
C.FnIII-8-2 (enable AF point selection area): still OOF

At shorter distances (like 10 meters/ 30 feet and less) the AF is doing fine when the AF point is placed over/on top of the subject. With longer shooting distances (infinity) the only reliable way to get good focus is to aim for edges, rather than placing an AF point over/on top of the subject. The effect of enabling AF point expansion when focusing at longer distances with both aiming tactics (placing the AF point over/on top of the subject and placing the AF point over the edge of a subject) and using both One Shot and AI Servo is nihil (except for enabling L/R expansion in AI Servo - but this seems to have little benefit over disabling AF point expansion). YMMV

Edited on Aug 15, 2008 at 03:00 PM

Aug 15, 2008 at 02:40 PM

Bruce Sawle
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.2 #9 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Markuson wrote:
dhphoto wrote:
Markuson wrote:

That actually wasn't railing against Canon. It was railing against attitudes that accept the unacceptable...and attitudes that assume the only severe problems are related to and caused by experience. It is assumptive, arrogant, ill-informed and simply incorrect.

You are fairly new here in terms of postings and perhaps might want to rethink the tone of your replies if you want to hang around.

Personally speaking (and one can only speak personally) I haven't had cause to question the performance of my cameras. That DOESN'T make me wrong.

The fact that I don't immediately agree with your pejorative postings doesn't make me wrong either, just irritated.

I understand. Let me give you a little history so I'm not such a stranger.

I was one of the first to identify 1D3 AF issues personally with Canon Irvine's #1 tech from Japan. I have since endured COUNTLESS folks who...since day ONE...have denied (along with Canon) the existence of the issue. In EVERY single instance, I have been shown to be on the correct side of the issue, despite the endless denials of people like you...ever since last May/June. I've grown tired of it, and my ire here is the result.

I STILL have a broken 1D3 and many many others do as well. Every time people start singing the same old "experience" denials, it only adds to Canon's propensity to deny.

--They denied there was an issue from the very beginning...
Yet, they finally issued a firmware "fix" last July.
--I immediately discovered that the firmware "improvement" was a bust.
--Denials continued...but...it slowly became clear to others there was a problem still.
Then once again...
--Canon said nothing for a long time.
Then...
--Canon announced the very expensive (for them) "Mirror Fix."
BUT... Once again...
--I clearly noted that it still was not fixed.
--More denials and slams on me followed...but then...
--RG again weighed in and his finding agreed with me completely once again.
--Canon remained silent, and failed to deliver their promised response to RG's report.
--Finally, Canon AGAIN issued a firmware attempt (1.2.3) to "fix" what they...once again...had continually denied was not broken.
--I noted continued problems.
--More denials
--RG finally did his most extensive testing to date...once again confirming what I has said all along.
--No response yet from Canon.

Are you seeing a pattern here

Aug 15, 2008 at 03:01 PM

Iberian
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #10 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Very informative posts Daan. I agree that focusing on the edges for distance shots is best.

- The downside to disabling AF point expansion is the ability to track moving objects as well.
- At 2.8 and lower (guess it depends) the downside to having to focus on an edge is that the focus isn't razor sharp on the actual desired focal point.

If I know what the shot is I can find a way to take it in focus. The problem is most of the shots I take are not setups. Even still I am able to get a good keeper rate and the quality of the shots is outstanding.

Aug 15, 2008 at 03:38 PM

Iberian
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #11 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

I am not sure if this is the case but it seems like there is a trade off for each CFn change.

If I want more reliable focus I lose speed in obtaining initial focus and in tracking and vice versa.

I am wondering if this is just true in general with the current technology. I haven't used the Nikon D3 series to see if they have been able to deliver the best of both worlds. It does seem though it is this way for Canon, even to the point of the MK2 vs the MK3.

Aug 15, 2008 at 03:51 PM

Hrow
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.2 #12 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

I think it is important to realize that Daan is using a 1DsMkIII and not a 1DMkIII. Having owned both and multiple copies of the 1DMkIII I can tell you from experience that there is a huge difference in the AF performance between the two. It is important not lump them together.

For the vast majority of my rather eclectic shooting, the 1DsMkIII is dead on. I would like to see better low contrast performance and in large part, that is the point of this post. Daan has found what I have as well, that certain low contrast targets can fool the system. I would prefer that that wasn't the case but that is a problem that is both historical and shared by Nikon. Differences between the two system are of degree not of kind.

We can bitch and moan about it all we like and get OOF pictures or we can adjust the way we work to better match the strengths of the camera and get in focus pictures. I think that was all he was suggesting and I think he has a very valid point.

PS. My comments apply to the 1DsMkIII only. The AF on the 1DMkIII just totally sucked on the three bodies I had and I still feel that numerous members of the Canon management team should be tossed from the roof for the way they treated their customers.

Aug 15, 2008 at 03:52 PM

John Black
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.2 #13 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Pixel Perfect wrote:
In the chimney example I'd never place the AF point over the centre of the dark brickwork, always on the edge and would not trust the beep if placed elsewhere.

I agree with Pixel Perfect on this. AF sensors are very tiny and I doubt they have enough resolution / sensitivity to distinguish between the dark bricks & dark mortar. Worse yet, it's a dark subject with a bright background. My 1Ds and 1Ds2 would have been hit or miss under those circumstances too.

Aug 15, 2008 at 03:58 PM

Iberian
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #14 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

HROW: That is interesting that there is a difference because in theory the systems are the same. I wonder if simply having 2x the resolution means that it is able to evaluate more pixels to run through the algorithms or if there are some unreleased changes we don't know about?

Aug 15, 2008 at 04:07 PM

lexvo
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #15 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Daan, could it be that because the AF-sensors of the 5D are larger, chances are bigger that an AF-sensor will be on an edge and therefore the 5D seems to perform better? (IIRC, the AF-sensors are larger than outlined in the viewfinder)

Aug 15, 2008 at 04:47 PM

PetKal
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.2 #16 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

This kinda user's feedback is very much appreciated.
Because those of us who are still looking at options of our 1DMkIIN and 1DsMkII replacement cameras........we become better informed buyers.

Aug 15, 2008 at 04:49 PM

Daan B
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #17 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

lexvo wrote:
Daan, could it be that because the AF-sensors of the 5D are larger, chances are bigger that an AF-sensor will be on an edge and therefore the 5D seems to perform better? (IIRC, the AF-sensors are larger than outlined in the viewfinder)

Yes, that is what I am thinking too

With the 5D I found infinity focusing easier and more reliable. But with closer focusing distances I regularly found focus to be on an ear when I aimed for an eye. Because the larger AF sensors are less precise at close distances. With the 1Ds3 this seems to be exactly the opposite. Infinity focusing is harder, whereas the 1Ds3 never seems to miss a shot when focusing for an eye at closer focusing distances

Aug 15, 2008 at 05:36 PM

apdieb
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.2 #18 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

I appreciate this user feedback as well. I am still struggling with AF in a lot of situations with my 1DMKIII. Latest issues involved a model (pro sports cheerleaders) shoot on a yacht with strong bright backgrounds. I once again experienced some random front focusing when clearly I was locked onto the EYE of the subject... Only to get home and see that it locked on their hand or something else in the foreground that was nowhere near the chosen AF point (expansion turned off btw).

Again, this wasn't every shot, but many which caused me to lose some very valuable shots.

Edited on Aug 15, 2008 at 05:53 PM

Aug 15, 2008 at 05:46 PM

John Power
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.2 #19 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Markuson, you are not allowed to say anything negative about this camera. You will be "poisoning" the threads when you did this. You must try empathize and understand that the camera is just "misunderstood". It is a complex and finicky being that must be accepted as it is. kin of like an ugly baby.

Give him a break Daan. People are allowed to dispute and disagree here, just as I have done about this overhyped camera in previous threads. And no, you don't have to have owned one to have an valid opinion about it. I could go buy one, mount the identical lens on both it and my 1DSMK2 and take successive photos of the same subject matter. I would be willing to bet a month's salary that if you show the results to a 100 people, half of them would, when forced to, pick the 1DSMK2 as the better exposure.

I just get a little aggravated when someone dares to disagree with the herd and get accused of spewing poison.

Edited on Aug 15, 2008 at 06:15 PM

Aug 15, 2008 at 06:14 PM

Daan B
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #20 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

John Power wrote:
Markuson, you are not allowed to say anything negative about this camera. You will be "poisoning" the threads when you did this. You must try empathize and understand that the camera is just "misunderstood". It is a complex and finicky being that must be accepted as it is. kin of like an ugly baby.

Give him a break Daan. People are allowed to dispute and disagree here, just as I have done about this overhyped camera in previous threads. And no, you don't have to have owned one to have an valid opinion about it. I could go buy one, mount the identical lens on both it and my 1DSMK2 and take successive photos of the same subject matter. I would be willing to bet a month's salary that if you show the results to a 100 people, half of them would, when forced to, pick the 1DSMK2 as the better exposure.

I just get a little aggravated when someone dares to disagree with the herd and get accused of spewing poison.

You couldn't resist the temptation, could you now?

Bye Bye John

Aug 15, 2008 at 06:25 PM

adamdewilde
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #21 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

I've never had sharper images in my life, and the focus is dead on constantly for me....

Of course I only shoot studio, I will try this whole 135mm theory on my rooftop though.

Aug 15, 2008 at 06:40 PM

John Power
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.2 #22 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Daan B wrote:
John Power wrote:
Markuson, you are not allowed to say anything negative about this camera. You will be "poisoning" the threads when you did this. You must try empathize and understand that the camera is just "misunderstood". It is a complex and finicky being that must be accepted as it is. kin of like an ugly baby.

Give him a break Daan. People are allowed to dispute and disagree here, just as I have done about this overhyped camera in previous threads. And no, you don't have to have owned one to have an valid opinion about it. I could go buy one, mount the identical lens on both it and my 1DSMK2 and take successive photos of the same subject matter. I would be willing to bet a month's salary that if you show the results to a 100 people, half of them would, when forced to, pick the 1DSMK2 as the better exposure.

I just get a little aggravated when someone dares to disagree with the herd and get accused of spewing poison.

You couldn't resist the temptation, could you now?

Bye Bye John

I guess I'm busted Daan

Oh well

Aug 15, 2008 at 06:47 PM

Hrow
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.2 #23 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Iberian wrote:
HROW: That is interesting that there is a difference because in theory the systems are the same. I wonder if simply having 2x the resolution means that it is able to evaluate more pixels to run through the algorithms or if there are some unreleased changes we don't know about?

The theory behind the AF may be the same but many of the components are and have to be different simply to account for the different sensor sizes.

Having had 3 bad 1DMkIII's and having been part of many of the discussions about the problems with the AF on 1DMkIII's, I am convinced that the problems are mechanical in nature and are serious enough that Canon knew that they couldn't fix them on a repair/replace basis without taking a huge financial and reputational hit.

Aug 15, 2008 at 07:18 PM

Iberian
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #24 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

adamdewilde wrote:
I've never had sharper images in my life, and the focus is dead on constantly for me....

Of course I only shoot studio, I will try this whole 135mm theory on my rooftop though.

Make sure you get the chimney running towards you in bright sunlight...

Aug 15, 2008 at 07:21 PM

Daan B
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.2 #25 · 1Ds3 AF: learning to understand how it works

Iberian wrote:
adamdewilde wrote:
I've never had sharper images in my life, and the focus is dead on constantly for me....

Of course I only shoot studio, I will try this whole 135mm theory on my rooftop though.

Make sure you get the chimney running towards you in bright sunlight...

Not necessarily... I get the same results under all weather conditions and angles of light.

Edited on Aug 15, 2008 at 07:34 PM

Aug 15, 2008 at 07:34 PM


FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Image Upload 1 2 3 4 end