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Archive 2008 · Don't get caught
  
 
Dalantech
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p.4 #1 · Don't get caught


Bifurcator wrote:
Dalantech wrote:
Excellent post Bifurcator! I wish you had made a completely new thread with it so I could easily bookmark it...


http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/675134/2#6352600



Sorry -I said that wrong. I know I can bookmark this page, but your post is an interesting one since it centers on lighting, and not all of the general topics covered in this thread. Would be cool to get into a single thread just about light...

Nov 07, 2008 at 06:06 AM
Dalantech
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p.4 #2 · Don't get caught


Bifurcator wrote:
I mean, we're sticking our lenses in their faces already as it is. It doesn't seem to affect most of the insects I've tried it on. In fact - in the case of some crawlers they stop and pose for me - probably trying to figure out what the heck I am / it is.


We're shooting different subjects -a lot of the critters I go after, and at the time of day that I shoot them (very active), won't put up with a large white surface coming at them -I've tried. I noticed a difference in my ability to get close to the subjects I shoot after taping the sides of my Sto-Fen diffusers.

Another reason for not using a large diffusion surface: Shadow control. No offence; I like your insect shots. But the shadows are almost too soft, or maybe just not dirrectional enough for me. By using two small light sources, as opposed to one large light source, I can gain control of where the shadows are to give a 2D image a 3D look...



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...and I can even hide areas of a subject that are out of focus by putting those areas in heavy shadow...



This image is copyrighted by the owner




...so light becomes another compositional tool.

Dalantech wrote: Isn't the material that you use as a diffuser important also from the standpoint of how it is changing the color temperature of the flash?

Bifurcator wrote:
Mmmm, I think it's negligible in the digital world where color temperature correction is at slider's reach.


This is where I have to disagree since the computer will never be smart enough to replace or guess at data that you don't capture with the camera. Although the effects can sometimes be subtle there's no substitute for getting the light right before you press the shutter release.

Bifurcator wrote:
...You can pay big money for laboratory grade color pure filters and diffusers but for digital photography where critical analysis and scientific discovery is not the intent it just doesn't matter (enough).


For me it's not about critical analysis or scientific discovery -it's about producing images that are aesthetically pleasing. Anyone can take a macro photo of an insect, but how many of those photos look so good in their composition and lighting that you'd want to print them large and stick them on the wall?...

If I could find a piece of Tupperware that gives me the light quality that I want then I'd use it in a heart beat...

BTW: Thanks for taking the time to post about light -I think it's one of the most important aspects about photography and all too often overlooked in macro...

Nov 07, 2008 at 06:26 AM
Bifurcator
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p.4 #3 · Don't get caught


Sure, I think we agree on all points, shadow control, lighting as a composition tool, even size as an obstacle. So our only real point of contention is over how much difference is produced from impure materials and those marketed as being specifically for photography. Although one might contend in accordance with the pentagon's own research and successful experiments with marine troops killing sheep with only "mind power" (documented and released into the public record) and by the sheer number of "psychic warriors" they employ to remote sense (also documented), that the disturbance of an insect by the size color and proximity of an object is at least affected by that objet handler's confidence, beliefs, will, and assumptions in disallowing it.

How much information is subdued by photographing an object illuminated by 5000K light filtering through a material which measures about a degree or less thermal radiation on a standard HSL/HSV color wheel and a chromaticity difference of probably less than a few nanometers Euclidean distance or Delta-E of less than about 2.0 or 3.0 in comparison with a product which is marketed as being "good" for such? I dunno but just given the fact that each image sensor model varies more than that from model to model or manufacturer to manufacturer , I'm going to claim "not much" and cross my fingers. If I'm wrong we better never take another picture on a cloudy day, under a canopy of any kind, or with any kind of common lights - even daylight would be out of the question in actuality. So just flash?

We're talking entirely about the visible light spectrum here so with only our cameras we should be able to compile very convincing test results just by setting it up logically and comparing the two results. If either produces a noticeable amount of data loss the results have spoken.

I think the major difference between your shots and mine (posted here) besides the number and size of light sources used, are due almost entirely to the differences in lenses. My lens while exceptionally good for a bridge camera, just doesn't compare to even slightly high grade lenses available for dSLR cameras. The second major difference I would assume to be the lens and bucket density differences between our respective image sensors. I'm using a tiny little 2/3" Interlaced RGBG CCD sensor with 8.3 megapixels crammed on. That's a fourth of the area of a common 4/3'rds sensor.




Edited on Nov 29, 2009 at 02:01 AM · View previous versions


Nov 07, 2008 at 02:38 PM
Dalantech
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p.4 #4 · Don't get caught


Bifurcator wrote:
... that the disturbance of an insect by the size color and proximity of an object is at least affected by that objet handler's confidence, beliefs, will, and assumptions in disallowing it.


That's it -I'll use the Jedi critter trick! "This is not the photographer you're looking for". Brilliant!

Bifurcator wrote:
How much information is subdued by photographing an object illuminated by 5000K light filtering through a material which measures about a degree or less thermal radiation on a standard HSL/HSV color wheel ... lots of stuff here that made my head spin... on a cloudy day, under a canopy of any kind, or with any kind of common lights - even daylight would be out of the question in actuality. So just flash?


Well this kinda gets back to your earlier statement about changing the white balance in post -something I'd like to avoid. It just makes more sense to me to get it right with the camera. I've got nothing against using off the shelf stuff for a diffuser -I've used plenty of assorted household plastics. But a milk jug isn't designed to diffuse light, and from what I've seen a lot of common plastics do more to block the light coming from the flash than to diffuse it. Not a big deal if you only shoot up to life size, of have a very powerful accessory flash. But when shooting with the tiny flash heads on the MT-24EX at 2x and higher magnification I just don't have light to waste...

Bifurcator wrote:
We're talking entirely about the visible light spectrum here so with only our cameras we should be able to compile very convincing test results just by setting it up logically and comparing the two results. If either produces a noticeable amount of data loss the results have spoken.


I think the differences would, in some cases, be subtle and just looking at a histogram wouldn't be enough. You'd have to take identical shots with the camera on a tripod, print then both out, and compare them side by side.Your not going to see differences in glare an diffusion by looking at a histogram. Even resizing images for a web site can cause problems -in the recent MT-24EX Diffusion Test that I did it would be difficult to see the difference between the images if I had turned the highlight warning indicator off...

Bifurcator wrote:
The second major difference I would assume to be the lens and bucket density differences between our respective image sensors. I'm using a tiny little 2/3" Interlaced RGBG CCD sensor with 8.3 megapixels crammed on. That's half the area of a common 4/3'rds sensor.


Honestly if you are shooting in good light, and I'm not (or I don't know the difference between good light and bad light), then your images would look better than mine -the quality of the light in a scene is critical to getting good photos. As for what can be done with a bridge camera look no further than my mentor Professor Mark Plonsky. His macro photography with a Canon G3 has inspired a number of macro shooters. Although he uses a DSLR and the MPE-65mm macro lens now...

Nov 07, 2008 at 04:52 PM
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p.4 #5 · Don't get caught


Well, you're right that "color balancing" in ACR and others, does cause information loss. It is a linear operation. If it wasn't then the entire hue wheel would rotate. Anyone can test this by sliding the "Temperature" slider all the way over to one end - tint too and sliding it all the way in combination should blow away a LARGE portion of pixels in most images. A true "Hue" adjustment on the other hand is 100% lossless and you can change it as often as you want as much as you want and always be able to rotate it back into place for 100% recovery. My argument is based on the assumption that there's likely less than a few degrees Kelvin (less than 150 for sure!) difference between an "official" piece of plastic and one my eyes tell me is "white". This is not even considering all the chromatic pollution introduced by bounced light and alternate light sources adding into the mix.

Light source color temperature, size, and intensity or "good light" as you call it is also is very important. We can do the "extreme example" thing in order to test this too. Shooting under a 100% red light will kill 100% of your greens and blues resulting in a comparative information loss. Likewise a light source that produces 50% more red will kill a large percentage of greens and blues. etc. etc. And of course we're all aware of how our sensors or film emulsion behaves under low intensity light - or sources that produce intense specular reflections and/or dispersion with some materials.

All of these properties and mechanisms additively factor into the conditions which can indeed affect the quality of a photograph (IQ). How much depends of course on their relative amounts combined with the limits of human perception and the limits of the lenses and sensors being used. If we single out only color temperature difference of the plastics used between you and I my guesstimate is that the differences are not perceivable. Certainly using two light sources would make a VERY big difference as would the lens and sensor being used. For example my lens is just not capable of these kinds of magnification powers without additional attachments:

    Fly Eye
    Bug Head
    Ant on Leaf
    Albino Fly
    Grasshopper Head





Edited on Feb 16, 2010 at 03:10 PM · View previous versions


Nov 08, 2008 at 01:02 AM
Roy Morales
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p.4 #6 · Don't get caught


For canon EOS - - EOS reverse lens mount adapter . I just bought a 52 and a 58 off ebay . Mine were 10 dollars each out of texas .
You can do a search on ebay starting with EOS reverse lens and add / change wording to find what you are looking for .

Nov 23, 2008 at 10:51 PM
silvawispa
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p.4 #7 · Don't get caught


Tom Hicks wrote

Get an old minolta, pentax, nikon, takamar, manual focus lens , set f stop , and simply hold it up to the camera body and take a few shots of a static object and see what you get it's that easy . you can use your 60 macro , set f stop , Mash DOF preview button,while removing the lens from the camera and it will stay fixed at that f stop , rev and hold to body face , put camera in AV mode meter and take the shot.
.



Thanks for this Tom. Utter genius! Works a treat with my 50mm 1.8 mk1. Having fun. Results later.

Paul

Dec 03, 2008 at 08:23 PM
Roy Morales
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p.4 #8 · Don't get caught


Yes on ebay . About 10 with s/h
. EOS 58 ADAPTER
EOS 52 ADAPTER
EOS 55 ADAPTER---- EVERYONE WAS OUT LAST WEED
EOS screw adapter .
lens reversing adapter
There are a bunch of names they are listed under .

Dec 03, 2008 at 09:07 PM
ContagiousIdea
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p.4 #9 · Don't get caught


Bifurcators website is down I can't see the examples! Sigh

Dec 05, 2008 at 01:14 AM
Vernon Sampson
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p.4 #10 · Don't get caught


Thanks a lot Tom. I wish to do more macro shooting this year, and I will remember your advise. It's photographers like you who are generous in spirit
and realize there are many photo opportunities out here. Sharing knowledge
improves us all as people first and photographers second.

Jan 06, 2009 at 03:40 AM
 



Aberdeen Photo
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p.4 #11 · Don't get caught


Tom-

Really great thread. Don't stop by often enough. Usually hang out in wedding forum. Lots of great tips and inexpensive ways to do macro and make it fun.
My fave is a set of Kenko tubes. I purchased a set in B&S in great shape for $115 and I have seen them go for less. A bit more than your $45 Nikkor zoom, but worth it and attach your fav sharp lens and go! Toobz are your friend for macro-

Btw, I tried the Canon and they are nice too, but not worth the extra, IMO, build is good on the Kenkos and the air inside the Kenko is of equal quality to the Canon.
;-)

Tom

Jan 08, 2009 at 07:28 PM
angiek
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p.4 #12 · Don't get caught


As a Noob, this information is very encouraging and very much appreciated.

BTW - Incredible work!

Jan 09, 2009 at 02:19 AM
Lezloid
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p.4 #13 · Don't get caught


This question is mainly aimed at Tom Hicks since it was his work earlier in the thread that raised this.

In terms of DoF are you racking the f-stop as wide as it will go or are you letting off a whole load of shots, shifting the focus each time and then stacking them?

Jan 29, 2009 at 12:14 PM
Tom Hicks
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p.4 #14 · Don't get caught


Lezloid wrote:
This question is mainly aimed at Tom Hicks since it was his work earlier in the thread that raised this.

In terms of DoF are you racking the f-stop as wide as it will go or are you letting off a whole load of shots, shifting the focus each time and then stacking them?



If you are talking about the spider shot , it is a single shot taken at f11. I'm not much into focus stacking.

Tom























Jan 30, 2009 at 02:53 AM
JLim
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p.4 #15 · Don't get caught


Does anyone know if someone makes the adapter for a 72mm filter?

Feb 21, 2009 at 08:43 PM
dschill
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p.4 #16 · Don't get caught


I thought about getting into macro but good advice! This image is copyrighted by the owner

Feb 28, 2009 at 12:20 AM
jamato8
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p.4 #17 · Don't get caught


One of the closest and best shots I have is one I made with the head of my Elmarit Leitz mounted on an adapter on bellows to my Canon. I don't know the magnification but over 5:1 and sharp as could be. The little bugs, so small I could barely see them with my eye, never looked so good. The cost was almost nothing as no one wanted the bellows, the adapter was found in some misc stuff and it all worked great.

Mar 08, 2009 at 05:29 AM
fazz33
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p.4 #18 · Don't get caught


Hahaha, I wish that I'd read this before spewing 350 dollars on my 90mm tamron. I'm still going to use my Tamron but when I'm going to try that this method for sure on my 50mm f1.8!

Mar 23, 2009 at 02:18 AM
glyons
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p.4 #19 · Don't get caught


Mike Scott wrote:
In response to lighting. It doesn't have to be expensive. Here I've used a foam disposable bowl and a piece of aluminum foil along with the pop-up flash. Total cost around $0.10



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Mike


Brilliant always wanted a macro ring! very clever, I must try this. I don't hang about in the macro forum at all, normally I'm over in the B&W forum. I dug out the Kenko rings this morning for this one. Hope you guys enjoy this one.

Gavin








May 01, 2009 at 11:47 AM
Thomas Johnson
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p.4 #20 · Don't get caught


This thread has a lot of great information. I only read it yesterday, and I produced this with just sunlight and reversing my 50mm f/1.4

This image is copyrighted by the owner


May 17, 2009 at 11:01 PM
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