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Archive 2008 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008
  
 
Ray Soemarsono
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p.1 #1 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Should be a great one.

The wedding is in Ojai, CA. About 12 hours + pre-scouting. Starts at 3PM ends at 3AM.

This is a non-shooting position but a good learning opportunity. We'll answer your questions and explain why we do things if time permits.

You'll be helping us with general assistant duties and holding off-camera lights so some knowledge in manual flash preferred.

We're charging you $100 per hour of workshop fee and your pay is $100 per hour.

Experience not essential but professionalism (appearance, approach and attitude) and endurance is a must.

Please email me at ray @ aperturaphoto . com No PM, text messages, etc please.

Thank you!

Jul 18, 2008 at 11:19 PM
Italo Campilii
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p.1 #2 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Nicely put Ray!

$100 - $100 sounds politically correct

Jul 18, 2008 at 11:39 PM
Saad Syed
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p.1 #3 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


We're charging you $100 per hour of workshop fee and your pay is $100 per hour.

lol good game

Jul 19, 2008 at 12:09 AM
Jerren
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p.1 #4 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


ibredwhitered starts WWVIII

Edited on Jul 19, 2008 at 03:09 AM


Jul 19, 2008 at 03:09 AM
tmiller
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p.1 #5 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Dangit! I've got nothing to do that weekend and by God Himself, if I didn't have a family, I'd fly in from Missouri!

-tmiller
Tim Miller Photography
http://tmillerphoto.com

Jul 19, 2008 at 04:34 AM
Ray Soemarsono
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p.1 #6 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Position filled. Thank you everyone!

Jul 21, 2008 at 09:07 PM
cycleson
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p.1 #7 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


i'm in norcal...ojai is my hometown...looks like i just missed this one...
i'll try to be a little quicker on the draw.



Jul 21, 2008 at 09:10 PM
Michael Schoelen
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p.1 #8 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Ill be in CO, good luck.

Jul 22, 2008 at 02:36 AM
asimsoofi
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p.1 #9 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


lol

Well put Ray.

Jul 22, 2008 at 02:41 AM
saturnkk
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p.1 #10 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Ray Soemarsono wrote:
Should be a great one.


We're charging you $100 per hour of workshop fee and your pay is $100 per hour.



Please email me at ray @ aperturaphoto . com No PM, text messages, etc please.

Thank you!


This is cute, but still not legal nor ethical. When you run a small business you do have certain responsibilities to understand the laws governing workforce. Everyone loves you here and you are an exceptional photographer but you can do better than this.



Jul 22, 2008 at 03:08 AM
hassy501
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p.1 #11 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


You keep on bring up ethical ? A trainee who wants to learn is expected to be trained for free and be paid also in cash ?

No wonder working pro's shy away from taking on newbies........because of ethics like that......oh well, theres only one loser here, the newbies because they are stuck behind "ethical" issues preventing them from learning.

Jul 22, 2008 at 03:45 AM
saturnkk
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p.1 #12 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


This is not training. It is employment.



Jul 22, 2008 at 03:50 AM
Matt Graves
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p.1 #13 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


saturnkk wrote:
This is not training. It is employment.




It is both.

Jul 22, 2008 at 05:28 AM
 



hassy501
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p.1 #14 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


saturnkk wrote:
This is not training. It is employment.



Well it's not employment if the newb's don't get the work.....and with people like you trying to enforce your ethical issues, they will NOT be trained...so they can thank people like YOU for their lack of training by professionals......hey, maybe they can go to YOU and you can train and also pay them ??


Jul 22, 2008 at 05:39 AM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.1 #15 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


If you work - you should be paid. The law agrees and is there to protect people from all manner or exploitation. There is no tongue in cheek way around this.

Carrying Ray's bag is working. Ray's soliciting employees to work for free is unfortunate. He should consult an attorney familiar with employment standards in his jurisdiction.

Edited on Jul 22, 2008 at 10:38 AM


Jul 22, 2008 at 10:36 AM
BrunoCardoso
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p.1 #16 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Red's just jealousy ... come on dude, get a life!

PS - Your photography sux ass


Aug 01, 2008 at 03:41 PM
Josh Evilsizor
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p.1 #17 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


BrunoCardoso wrote:
PS - Your photography sux ass


while I might not always agree with Red, this was just out of line.

Aug 01, 2008 at 03:52 PM
Chris Beaumont
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p.1 #18 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Is today Groundhog day ? I swear I saw this exact same arguement last month.

Edited on Aug 01, 2008 at 03:54 PM


Aug 01, 2008 at 03:54 PM
panos.v
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p.1 #19 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


BrunoCardoso wrote:
PS - Your photography


Feel free to share yours.

Edited on Aug 01, 2008 at 03:59 PM


Aug 01, 2008 at 03:58 PM
panos.v
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p.1 #20 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


I'm pretty sure that a couple of free workshops with Ray will be far more useful as training and cost-effective than a few years in university where you'd pay thousands in fees, let alone living costs.

Also, I do not know how it works with you guys in the US, but companies here let university students do training by doing their projects in collaboration with the company. Most companies won't pay you (unless they're pretty sure they want to employ you after graduation), but if you do well they either give you a job in the end or you get a very good reference, which counts for a lot more than 10 references from academics. Is that unethical? Does the company get free labour? Sure it does. Do you get anything out of it? Sure you do.

In fact, thinking about it, the biggest scam is a PhD. You actually pay the University so that they can claim grants and say they do all that research, which you do.

Edited on Aug 01, 2008 at 04:05 PM


Aug 01, 2008 at 04:02 PM
Victor S
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p.1 #21 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Internship is free, even in the United States. I know lots of students beg big companies to accept them as internship workers.
Ray, you rock! I wish I could go...

Aug 01, 2008 at 04:31 PM
saturnkk
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p.1 #22 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Victor S wrote:
Internship is free, even in the United States. I know lots of students beg big companies to accept them as internship workers.
Ray, you rock! I wish I could go...


Except, if you are in business for yourself, you need to educate yourself on the FACT that companies that have UNPAID internships MUST register with the state and have strict guidelines governing these positions that they must adhere to.

The lack of business understanding here, among supposed small business owners is startling.

Aug 01, 2008 at 05:31 PM
radioblurs
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p.1 #23 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


wow, it's true-these threads will never end-sorry Ray

i am curious, ray, in light of these concerns, do you have the volunteer sign any waiver before they assist/schlep? have you ever had any issues pop up from people who assisted you in the past?

i'm curious and i'm also hoping to turn this thread from the obvious impasse that it's currently reached

daniel

Aug 01, 2008 at 05:40 PM
RedWhiteandRed
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p.1 #24 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


There is no reason not to pay. No skin of anyone's nose to pay based on experience - as per Sam Hassas' example.


And, yes, on many occasions my photography sux ass.

Aug 01, 2008 at 07:23 PM
StGreen
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p.1 #25 · Tagalong with Apertura August 2, 2008


Just an odd tidbit that I found searching on this, in California, any interns hired without pay need to be receiving credit for their work via an academic or registered apprenticeship program (or so says the SF Gate).

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/05/27/BUG0RQ19531.DTL

The US Department of Labor holds out six points that unpaid interns need to follow:

1. The training, even though it includes actual operations of the facilities of the employers, is similar to that which would be given in a vocational school.

2. The training is for the benefit of the student.

3. The student does not displace a regular employee, but works under the close observation of a regular employee or supervisor.

4. The employer provides the training and derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the student; and on occasion, the operations may actually be impeded by the training.

5. The student is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period.

6. The employer and the student understand that the student is not entitled to wages for the time spent training.


Hauling someone's bags definitly sounds like you're displacing the job of who ever normally hauls bags, even if it is the prime photographer (violation of rule #3). Second, the intern is giving an immediate benefit to the employer, which is verbotten under #4.

Going down the road of charging a schlub for "photography training" while at the same time handing them a salary of the exact amount would at first glance, seem to be trying to evade both California and federal labor law.

Paying CA's minimum wage of $8 per hour is a $80 burden for a 10 hour wedding. I know that the odds of violations being caught is slim, but the penalties would be exponentially more than the minimum wage not being paid.


Edited on Aug 01, 2008 at 09:11 PM


Aug 01, 2008 at 09:09 PM




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