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Archive 2008 · "Admirable" blur samples
  
 
Samuli Vahonen
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p.26 #1 · "Admirable" blur samples


olyacme wrote:
FWIW, though it has the same source, it's not strictly longitudinal CA unless it's present at the focal plane. A lens can be a apochromatic and still have defocus colour, though being an apo is a good indication that the degree will be moderate. As with longitudinal CA, stopping down usually reduces the effect as well.

Thanks for the information, I assumed based on people talking here that "LoCA = bokeh CA". Do we have name for this green/magenta(red in some cases with 85L) thing in bokeh?

Based on new definition of LoCA neither Makro-Planar or 85L don't have LoCA since it doesn't happen in focal plane.

By stopping down this goes away around f/4 in both lenses tested. Now I realize when I had the coins and lightning set up I should have tested Elmarit-R 90, 135L,180L and 200L as well in order to see which are my alternatives if I have to shoot something which is prone to cause this effect.

Jan 06, 2009 at 09:28 AM
Jonas B
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p.26 #2 · "Admirable" blur samples


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
(...)
Picture 7: Canon EF300mm f/2.8L IS USM & EF 2.0x II @ f/5.6 (even it's said that extenders, specially 2x make the bokeh worse it doesn't look that bad)


Thank you Samuli.
A 2x extender can sometimes actually improve the bokeh (adding aberrations I guess, making the bright rings in OOF highlights lessen or even disappear). I have seen images taken with Pentax A50/1.2 (by itself showing harsh rendering with the bright rings mentioned in background OOF highlights) and a Pentax 2x extender. The bokeh was totally seen much improved. CA was still there of course. regards, /Jonas

Jan 06, 2009 at 04:03 PM
Jonas B
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p.26 #3 · "Admirable" blur samples


I guess this is a typical example of Longitudinal CA (LoCA):


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It's a quite nice lens on a cropped camera unless you need images sharp from corner to corner, or even border to border... Big, heavy and expensive though.
Lol - I see I forgot an s there. Darn.

Jan 06, 2009 at 07:23 PM
fotissgr
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p.26 #4 · "Admirable" blur samples


What 's your opinion about this

MD ROKKOR 50mm f/1.2 on 40d



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Jan 07, 2009 at 09:40 PM
fotissgr
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p.26 #5 · "Admirable" blur samples


....or this??


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Jan 07, 2009 at 09:45 PM
cogitech
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p.26 #6 · "Admirable" blur samples


I disagree on the direction some are going on the LoCA definition.

This is an example of LoCA, IMO:



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Jan 07, 2009 at 09:56 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.26 #7 · "Admirable" blur samples


cogitech wrote:
I disagree on the direction some are going on the LoCA definition.

I would prefer it just to be LoCA, it's annoying to write "the green/magenta stuff in bokeh".

I checked wikipedia, dpreview, etc. definitions for LoCA and any of the ones I did find didn't say that definition is only limited to plane of focus. However all definitions mention that lens is not able to focus all colors to same plane (or something like that).

Also it seems that Lloyd Chambers is also not calling it LoCA, example at his
Coastal Optics 60mm f/4 UV-VIS-IR APO macro article, he calls it or actually lack of it to "magenta/green color fringing" and discusses it in separate chapter from chromatic aberrations.

Really hard to read these scientific texts on 2nd language at midnight, I'll continue testing CTO gels compatibility with my living room lights...

Too much talk, no images, Leica Elmarit-R 90mm f/2.8 @ f/5.6, pretty smooth bokeh considering subject, and no LoCA/bokeh color fringing
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--
Samuli Vahonen
http://www.vahonen.com

Jan 07, 2009 at 10:44 PM
cogitech
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p.26 #8 · "Admirable" blur samples


Samuli,

I guess my point is that LoCA does not show up on the focal plane, but in front and behind the focal plane.

CA on the focal plane is what I (and most authorities on the matter) refer to as "lateral CA" or just plain old "CA". You know, the type that shows up in the extreme corners (usually) on contrasty subjects in the focal plane (like tree branches against bright sky).

Jan 08, 2009 at 01:08 AM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.26 #9 · "Admirable" blur samples


cogitech wrote:
Samuli,

I guess my point is that LoCA does not show up on the focal plane, but in front and behind the focal plane.

CA on the focal plane is what I (and most authorities on the matter) refer to as "lateral CA" or just plain old "CA". You know, the type that shows up in the extreme corners (usually) on contrasty subjects in the focal plane (like tree branches against bright sky).

Paul, I don't think us fighting over this adds any value. Like I said I would prefer LoCA to mean this magenta/green fringing in bokeh as well, and that is the way how I have understood it all the time before I was told few posts above that it's not LoCA since it's not in focal plane.

However I disagree LoCA does not show up on the focal plane - if you look at the definition picture at dpreview (or any other location, they all have similar picture):


This image is copyrighted by the owner



In theory if LoCA is severe enough at focal plane I don't see no reason why this would not show up in focal plane also. In practice of course I have never seen this, and I would assume that applies for majority of people working with camera optics, due to which reason "most authorities" call focal plane CA as "CA" or "lateral CA" and this bokeh thing "longitudinal CA".

So for me it's fine (and preferred) that LoCA definition is how you understand it. End of discussion from my part, unless somebody proof otherwise I keep calling bokeh magenta/green fringing LoCA as I have done before.

Jan 08, 2009 at 06:06 AM
olyacme
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p.26 #10 · "Admirable" blur samples


Samuli Vahonen wrote:
In theory if LoCA is severe enough at focal plane I don't see no reason why this would not show up in focal plane also. In practice of course I have never seen this, and I would assume that applies for majority of people working with camera optics, due to which reason "most authorities" call focal plane CA as "CA" or "lateral CA" and this bokeh thing "longitudinal CA".


Longitudinal CA shows up in the focal plane all the time. It's the classic cause of the "Purple Fringing" effect so often erroneously blamed on sensor bloom. As a general rule, if the colour fringe is the same radially, and diminishes when a lens is stopped down, it's longitudinal CA - a failure to bring enough of the spectrum to common focal depth. Lateral CA, on the other hand, is a failure to bring enough of the spectrum to common magnification. It results in colour fringing that differs radially and generally does not diminish as a lens is stopped down.

A lens with low Longitudinal CA can still show significant "Defocus CA" because although the different parts of the spectrum did eventually arrive at common focus, it's very common for them to take significantly divergent paths through the lens before arriving at that focus. This allows some colours to become concentrated or diluted radially within the light cones, ahead of or behind the focal point. This becomes obvious when high contrast areas are imaged out of focus.

To my knowledge, "Defocus CA" doesn't have an official term because the people who named the various aberrations were all either microscopists or astronomers. As a rule, these two fields only care about the qualities of the focal plane.

A series of spot plots from someone with access to Zemax and a reference design would probably make that much clearer at a glance than I can put it in words..

Jan 08, 2009 at 10:32 AM
makron
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p.26 #11 · "Admirable" blur samples


olyacme wrote:
.......
Longitudinal CA shows up in the focal plane all the time.
......



Not true. LoCA may or may not show up in the focal plane. That depends on lens design and aperture. This does not lead to purple fringing. If what you said is true, then there should also be green and red fringing as well depending on the lens. sensor bloom is always purple fringing, not?

Refer to the "Focus MTF of the wide open Planar 1.4/85 ZA in white light (black curve) and in blue, green and red light." here: (Page 32)
http://www.zeiss.com/C12567A8003B8B6F/EmbedTitelIntern/CLN_30_MTF_en/$File/CLN_MTF_Kurven_EN.pdf

Sorry for the interruption to this fantastic thread.

Jan 08, 2009 at 11:39 AM
Lotusm50
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p.26 #12 · "Admirable" blur samples


makron wrote:
Sorry for the interruption to this fantastic thread.



No problem. Interesting discussion. To move the thread back to images
Cosina 55mm f1.2, wide open, 5D:


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Jan 08, 2009 at 12:54 PM
cogitech
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p.26 #13 · "Admirable" blur samples


Samuli Vahonen wrote:

Paul, I don't think us fighting over this adds any value.


I prefer to think of it as an interesting discussion, as Lotus does. But I also agree that it is time to get back to the photos

Unfortunately, I have nothing to offer at this time

Jan 08, 2009 at 02:15 PM
 



olyacme
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p.26 #14 · "Admirable" blur samples


makron wrote:
olyacme wrote:
.......
Longitudinal CA shows up in the focal plane all the time.
......



Not true. LoCA may or may not show up in the focal plane. That depends on lens design and aperture. This does not lead to purple fringing. If what you said is true, then there should also be green and red fringing as well depending on the lens. sensor bloom is always purple fringing, not?


By "all the time" I mean frequently. i.e., many lenses suffer from Longitudinal CA, and that those that do are largely responsible for the so called "Purple Fringing" effect. There is no rule that says that violet must be the most poorly corrected colour, however. Blue or red fringings are also common.

Jan 08, 2009 at 09:19 PM
fotissgr
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p.26 #15 · "Admirable" blur samples




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Another one with the 50mm rokkor

Jan 09, 2009 at 11:31 AM
fotissgr
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p.26 #16 · "Admirable" blur samples


Or may be this one..

Jan 09, 2009 at 11:38 AM
thrice
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p.26 #17 · "Admirable" blur samples


Pentax-A 50/1.2 @ 2.0



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Jan 09, 2009 at 03:19 PM
Lotusm50
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p.26 #18 · "Admirable" blur samples


Cosina 55/1.2:


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Jan 09, 2009 at 08:41 PM
Jonas B
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p.26 #19 · "Admirable" blur samples


here it was an index for a while. It is now updated an moved, See the opening post at page 1.

Edited on Jan 30, 2009 at 01:47 AM · View previous versions


Jan 10, 2009 at 01:19 AM
Jonas B
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p.26 #20 · "Admirable" blur samples


Lotusm50 wrote:
Cosina 55/1.2:


Hi,
I just updated the Index and wonder if you can elaborate a little on this lens. It just says "Cosina 55/1.2" on it? The bright rings around the background OOF highlights (my personal obsession) seem less than usual from Cosina (the Voigtländer 58mm for example).

Jan 10, 2009 at 01:23 AM
Jonas B
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p.26 #21 · "Admirable" blur samples


Hi fotissgr,
Your 50mm Minolta MD Rokkor images look OK. If you really asked, that is...
The fence images, are they sharpened for the web or "unprocessed"?


Jan 10, 2009 at 01:26 AM
thrice
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p.26 #22 · "Admirable" blur samples


Hey Jonas, thanks for the update makes my browsing easier.

Just to nitpick Leica Summicron-R 28/2.8, close-up,, Paul Yi, page 22 is an elmarit-R, f/2.0 is summicron f/2.8 is elmarit.

Jan 10, 2009 at 04:23 AM
Jonas B
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p.26 #23 · "Admirable" blur samples


thrice wrote:
Hey Jonas, thanks for the update makes my browsing easier.

Just to nitpick Leica Summicron-R 28/2.8, close-up,, Paul Yi, page 22 is an elmarit-R, f/2.0 is summicron f/2.8 is elmarit.


Hi, somebody is using the Index!! Cool.
Thank you - the lens is now an Elmarit. I also found a Simmicron lens in the list. Amazing!
Cheers, /Jonas


Jan 10, 2009 at 06:54 AM
Lotusm50
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p.26 #24 · "Admirable" blur samples


Jonas B wrote:
Lotusm50 wrote:
Cosina 55/1.2:


Hi,
I just updated the Index and wonder if you can elaborate a little on this lens. It just says "Cosina 55/1.2" on it? The bright rings around the background OOF highlights (my personal obsession) seem less than usual from Cosina (the Voigtländer 58mm for example).



It is older than the CV 58/1.4 and an unrelated design. I believe that it is essentially the same as the Tomioka 55/1.2 except made by Cosina and multi-coated. It is in the Pentax K mount and has a 9-blade aperture.

I've only just started to play around with lens, but here are a few preliminary comments. Compared to the CV 58/1.4 (which I also have) it has a nicer bokeh (which you suggest), but is noticeably more flare prone. This lens should not be used with out a hood. It appears to be reasonably sharp wide open (that is, within expectations).



Jan 10, 2009 at 12:23 PM
Grenache
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p.26 #25 · "Admirable" blur samples


Perhaps it goes without saying but what makes many of these shots stand-out gorgeous is more the composition than the lens. Granted, the lens has its own character, but the best of the shots posted above would look about as good with a Coke bottle used as the lens. There is something to be said for the eye behind the camera in addition to the gear attached to it.

Don't have an adapter for my Leica 2/50 (still en route), so all that I can offer up are some shots from Canon lenses. Hold your rotten eggs, please.

The first set of 3 were taken with a 200mm f/2.8L II coupled with a 1.4x extender. The other two were with the 100mm f/2.8 macro.

Jim






















Jan 10, 2009 at 06:00 PM




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