fredmiranda.com

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

2 end

Archive 2008 · New climbing camera?

reburns
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #1 · New climbing camera?

Looking over my dissappointing scanned slides, I think it's time to be on the eventual outlook for a new camera. A new small climbing camera, that is. I think my 5D and bag of L & Zeiss lenses are still stellar. My current climbing camera is a Contax Zeiss TVS, has been out climbing the past 15 years. The shutter has been replaced, the corners worn, case tattered, but otherwise it's in good shape:
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/2008-06-24_Contax_TVS_2563.jpg

I'm a bonefide rock & ice climber (or at least I keep trying), and a hack amatuer photographer. I shoot for the hope of the occasional shot worthy of a large format print. The Contax TVS has fit the bill real well: real controls in a body that I can wedge between myself and the rock as I squirm up some desert tower chimney.

My criteria:
1) good lens
2) shoots RAW
3) practical size handling & controls
Did I mention good lens?

Or perhaps I need some ABC's of scanning. I simply use a Nikon V Coolscan. I do not seem to get the tack sharpness that I've come to desire, and seem to deal with too high film grain. Thanks - it's lunchtime now = time to go climbing.

Edited by reburns on Jun 25, 2008 at 07:04 AM GMT

Edited by reburns on Jun 25, 2008 at 07:04 AM GMT

Edited on Jun 24, 2008 at 07:04 PM

Jun 24, 2008 at 12:47 PM

mrladewig
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #2 · New climbing camera?

I don't really think there are any current digital models that would hold up to that level of abuse, certainly not for 15 years. They're largely plastic, they all have LCD screens on the back to break. Few have the wide angle capability of the old TVS you've been using. I'd also assume that you need autofocus so that you can operate the camera in one hand.

That Nikon Coolscan V should do a pretty good job. What are you scanning? Transparency or negative? What film? Are your shutter speeds too low? You could try the 400 speed Provia or even use the Fuji 800 speed C-41 reportage film. Also remember that scanned film usually requires more USM or other sharpening than a digital capture. And they definitely look different.

Jun 24, 2008 at 01:32 PM

Mike1
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #3 · New climbing camera?

reburns: How heavy duty is your climbing? If weight is a factor, consider using the Leica M series range finders. I do some alpine style mountaineerring and I find that the 1 series digital camers do not fit the bill, it's just too heavy with the other equipment that I have to lug with me. My two choices are using the 40D or 1V and a WA prime, preferably a 24 f1.4 L if you're worrying about image quality but any of Canon's midrange prime would do if you want to reduce more weight. I would rather use film over digital right now since digital bodies are less responsive in sub-zero temps and film bodies will hold up better at -45F than a digital would.

Edited on Jun 24, 2008 at 01:47 PM

Jun 24, 2008 at 01:46 PM

AndrewTee
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #4 · New climbing camera?

This guy here likes the Sigma DP1:

Mountain Photographer

He uses it in addition to a 4x5 view camera. I don't know how durable the DP1 would be in the long term. Also, read up on it because a lot of people don't like it because it is slow.

There is also the just announced Ricoh GX200 with zoom lens which has an optional "flower pedal" lens cover for one-handed operation while climbing. Also the Ricoh GRD2 with fixed 28mm lens.

Jun 24, 2008 at 02:18 PM

kosmoskatten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #5 · New climbing camera?

As a "former" climber I would not hesitate to recommend a wider angle. I enjoyed the Ricoh GR1V (28mm) in analog times and now I bring the pocketable Ricoh GRD2 which would suit any climber well: small, built in spirit level, quick exposure adjustment and good handling.

For those tight crags and sweeping mountain vistas - go wide!

The Sigma DP1 provides better quality but at the cost of sluggishness in action and a larger footprint.

Jun 24, 2008 at 03:03 PM

georgweb
Offline
•
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #6 · New climbing camera?

I'd say the Panasonic Lumix LX-1 or -2 is worth a try. 28-112mm Leica lens, RAW, price tag around 400,-$. Said to be the only miniature camera playing in the brigde cam league.
It needs a lens cap on a string, don't know if that's a nono for you.
I've tried the LX-2 a few times and was impressed.
Don't fall!
Georg
Quick overview:
http://www.megapixel.net/reviews/panasonic-lx1/lx1-results.php
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/lx1.shtml

Jun 24, 2008 at 03:57 PM

fourfa
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #7 · New climbing camera?

question for original poster - what's the budget?

if film is an option, I'd have a hard time not recommending a Voigtlander R4M or R4A (or an Ikon, or M6 or whatever suits you) with the Voigtlander 15mm and/or 21mm/4, plus a normal or long lens to taste. In fact sometimes I have a hard time convincing myself not to go back to using film on my climbing trips. The little Voigtlander lenses are absurdly good for the price and diminutive size and weight.

Edited on Jun 24, 2008 at 04:56 PM

Jun 24, 2008 at 04:47 PM

reburns
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #8 · New climbing camera?

Hello Folks,

Since posting I ran out for a long lunch of climbing (no exciting photo-ops except for a cool summit pano) and read thru your thoughtful posts. I also updated the original post photo to show my actual camera. And indeed, the simplest question often leads to others:

1. First let me clarify that I usually don�t take landscape pictures when climbing, and I don�t do much mountaineering. Yes, landscapes do creep into the mix, but I find there�s more to tell with people shots; what�s the climbing perspective, when & where, who was bold, who was cheating on who kind of stuff.

- That means 24mm fixed isn�t going to cut it.

2. I currently use Velvia 100 (it was reformulated several years ago). It�s just that I�m colour challenged (some color blindness) and PP color balance isn�t so easy for me. Also there is a lot to be said for the time it takes to properly PP. If you have many things going on, the proper time never gets allotted. I do use unsharp mask a little heavily on scanned slides.

3. How heavy duty is my climbing? Jeez, that�s a relative question. First, I�m not �Heavy Duty� � that�s the name of a real climber. We were just wondering last night how he was still surviving. Around here, I�m a very average rock climber, say 5.11 traditional climbing on a low gravity day. I like to kid myself into thinking I can hang in a bit tougher ice climbing. I haven�t had friends kill themselves climbing in several years, but one old bold friend who tried real hard recently gave in to cancer. About the camera: this picture is taken with a Contax T2, Velvia 50, and surely my TVS is wedged in some inconvenient spot between my hip and the rock:
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/KingoPainCrop.jpg

4. As you folks point out, one-handed AF operation is key. Lens caps stay at home. But I sure could do better with the ability to preset center spot focus. Here�s the typical, �hey man, pull up the rope!�, replied with �Eh, you�re all worried about that now, and but later you�ll want pics. Just make a silly grin, alright?�
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/2008-04-15_Epinephrine_2sm.jpg
TVS, Velvia 100, 2200� of this climbing followed by 1000� scramble.

5. Budget. Let�s start with $800. This is probably a very useful purchase, so if it warrants I could hock some photo gear that cost more and collects dust. But I�m not taking a $5k Leica out to the crags.

For mountaineering, or anything that requires a tripod, I have a 5D & a Zeiss21. I once owned a Ricoh GR21, which was a real smart camera, but sold it because it was far too delicate (much more than a GR1), duplicated other gear, and the lens flared easily:
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/Alpamayo_35_sm.jpg

I tried the Lumix LX1 or LX2 (or both) in the camera store on a tripod and was disappointed with IQ. I ran back to my TVS! Another climbing friend broke his right away.

So the wish list is more defined:
1) Good IQ
2) Modest zoom, say 28mm � 80mm.
3) Shoots RAW
4) Practical handling: AF, one handed, no fiddly caps, etc.

The suggestions that you guys made that looks best on paper is the Ricoh GX200, but another FM posters report lousy noise. Alas, since the Sigma DP1 is fixed and slow, it isn�t going to cut it. BTW, I�m in no hurry. If there is something coming around next year, I�d love to hear about it.

Here�s a few more, first, this is one taken by my partner of me a couple weeks ago with some ordinary digicam. At full-res 100% it looks better than my film scans:
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/Vanquished_4871sm2.jpg

TVS & Velvia 100, I guess I�ve got contrast issues:
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/2007-03-03_Talisman_25sm.jpg
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/2007-03-03_Talisman_28sm.jpg

Edited by reburns on Jun 25, 2008 at 08:49 PM GMT

Edited on Jun 25, 2008 at 08:49 AM

Jun 24, 2008 at 07:54 PM

ISO1600
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #9 · New climbing camera?

i think you (like me) need to work more on your scanning, and you'd probably be much happier with your old Contax and that Coolscan. I'm horrible at scanning, but i do know that the Coolscan V is an amazing scanner when used properly. I am getting the hang of it, slowly, but it's a pain.

If nothing else, selling the scanner could get you closer to a new camera.

Jun 24, 2008 at 08:52 PM

wordfool
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #10 · New climbing camera?

One other thought... pay to have your negs drum-scanned by a local shop. That would give you the best quality and least hassle.

Jun 25, 2008 at 01:20 AM

RandomLetterz
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #11 · New climbing camera?

Well, from what I can tell from those picture you are completely crazy, so I don't think anyone's advice from here will make much sense

Seriously though, on that picture where you are crammed into the crevice, are you not using any ropes or other gear?

It looks like an awesome time, and I can see why you would want to take a camera with you

Edited on Jun 25, 2008 at 08:52 AM

Jun 25, 2008 at 08:52 AM

lou f
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #12 · New climbing camera?

canon g9, nothing else suitable on the market would be as flexible with raw and lens cover. if you could live with the 35mm wide, i couldn't.

Edited on Jun 25, 2008 at 09:44 AM

Jun 25, 2008 at 09:39 AM

mrladewig
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #13 · New climbing camera?

I was a climber for many years when I was younger and could lead 5.10 trad routes, so I understand what you'll want and need.

About the film, if you want to stay on that course.

You might think about switching to Provia or Kodak E100GX. They would both be much more forgiving with the shadows than your Velvia. Provia can still pack a saturation punch, but it does look different than Velvia. Also, Provia is available in an ISO400 version for 35mm, and you might find that to be very useful. Its grainy, but you'll have sharper photos in many circumstances. I shoot alot of Provia 100 in my 4X5 so you can search by my name to see some examples.

As far as the digicams go, I just don't think you'll find anything as robust as your current camera. Two things would worry me, the LCD screen, which can easily be cracked and the exposed buttons that change functions. I don't think any digicams have a lock buttons function. Plus you run into issues with the wide angle capability. Most only have a 35 or 38mm equivalent wide angle, so choices with a 28mm or wider choice are really limited. I also think alot of digicams controls are hard to use with gloves.

But if you're going to go the digicam route, the Canon G9 seems like one of the best options. Its just not as wide as you'll probably want.

Edited on Jun 25, 2008 at 03:06 PM

Jun 25, 2008 at 03:05 PM

reburns
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #14 · New climbing camera?

Thanks again for the thoughtful replies.

I was really hoping that I could just buy my way to better photos. Rats, from the post it sounds like I'll have to learn to process better.

- I got a roll of Provia 100 today, and can take it out tomorrow morning.
- Is there any written process I can try following for my scanning? Looks like I need to study up. Beyond getting the curves adjusted ok, it seems to me managing grain vs. sharpening. See the 2nd to last photo? Even web-size the grain in the sky is strong.
- I really don't think I'll break a plastic camera. Oh not at least right away. I try to take care of my gear, which I suppose means I'll only gently sit on it. I'll keep G9 in mind and watch for alternatives in the future. 35mm wide isn't terribly enticing. I won't hardly ever go above ISO200, so maybe one of those noisy cameras won't be so bad.

Maybe I should figure out how to lug the 5D along more often (hence the arguement for the Leica), which has only been happening close to the ground or on hands-free terrain:
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/2005-05-24_Shelf_Wadsworth_2135sm.jpg

Jun 25, 2008 at 07:29 PM

pascal03
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #15 · New climbing camera?

You probably want compact and SLR quality... why not try the e420 and kit lens - for $500, you get a very compact SLR with decent battery life (even the spare batteries are quite cheap) and the kit lens gives you a decent 28mm field of view. It's the closest you can get to a zoom P&S with good SLR quality.

Since you are coming from the P&S (TVS), the smaller viewfinder of the e420 should not pose a big issue. The e420 has slightly better dynamic range than the e410 as well. If you decide you need wider, Olympus will be releasing a rather very compact 9-18mm (18mm-36mm in 35mm terms FOV) which should do the trick.

Not sure how well it may hold up in the cold weather when it comes to battery life, but should be no different than a 5D.

Or if you decide you are okay with a slightly better/heavier lens, the Olympus 14-54mm f2.8-3.5 or Leica 14-50mm f2.8-3.5 (both are quite compact) should fit the bill nicely. When comes to compact SLR, I think Olympus pretty much has the goods.

Jun 25, 2008 at 07:43 PM

Jonathan H
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #16 · New climbing camera?

My 40D usually goes with me when I climb... but I'm mostly a bouldering rat (and have a little brother who sends V10/V11) so weight isn't always a concern. I live around the corner from the Gunks (maybe an hour by car, max), so on trad days, I'll usually bring up the G7. I really like the idea of getting back into film... maybe a used Voigtlander would be nice.

I bring the 40D over the 5D because I adore my crappy 8mm Peleng which only works on a 1.6 sensor

Boxcar Arete, Gunks, V8
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2350/2350630772_1d52823be1_o.jpg

The Illustrious Buddha, Gunks, V9 (Shot with the peleng)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2129/2350630668_0a2f654c5e_o.jpg

Jun 25, 2008 at 11:17 PM

kgelner
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #17 · New climbing camera?

I'm going to put in one more plug for the DP-1 - yes the AF is slow, so don't use it. The DP-1 has an excellent manual focus wheel on the back where you could simply dial in the focal distance you want, or leave it set to hyperfocal settings for more general shooting.

I wouldn't suggest that to you after restating your requirements except that the ice shots with the DP-1 would be simply fantastic as it handles subtle tones really, really well. As for the zoom aspect - you can reasonably do about a 2x crop and still have a very usable image for most uses (at least an 8x10, larger if the image is sharp). That gives you almost the range you are looking for...

To protect the LCD you could just add an LCD hood, the cap is more of an issue for you. The lens hood does not add much bulk and would protect the front element pretty well.

Just a few thoughts to confuse you further...

Jun 26, 2008 at 03:11 AM

lou f
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #18 · New climbing camera?

have you tried capture software for you scanner? it's a big jump in quality for your nef scans.

Edited on Jun 26, 2008 at 03:26 AM

Jun 26, 2008 at 03:26 AM

mrladewig
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #19 · New climbing camera?

I don't think there is a written process for scanning. There seem to be two camps. One is the scan it the way you want to print it camp. The other is the scan it for maximum info and perfect it in Photoshop camp. I fall into the "I don't know what the heck I'm doing so just roll with it" camp.

I'm not sure exactly what are the options for the scanner you've got. I'm pretty happy with Silverfast software and I think they have a version available for the Coolscan V. The software is definitely a big part of scanning. I'm planning to migrate from the Silverfast SE version that came with my scanner to Ai, but I've got 100 other priorities at the moment.

I'm not sure what is causing your grain issues. I have scanned Velvia 50, 100, Provia 100, Astia 100, Kodak E100VS, Portra 160 VC, Fuji Superia (In other words a bunch of different films) and some B&W film and haven't seen grain that would be visible at web posting size.

A friend scanned a slide for me on his drum scanner and I scanned it again on my Epson. Here are some 3200ppi 100% crops from 4X5 Provia, with the drum scan on top and the 4990 scan on the bottom. Provia 100 has roughly the same RMS grain size as Velvia 100 or Velvia 100F. Astia is slightly finer and Velvia is slightly finer still. If this example scan were a 35mm slide, it would be enough pixels to make a 10X15 print at 300ppi.

I'm not getting grain anything like what you're showing.

A couple of things might be causing the grain though. If the slide is very dark/underexposed, my scanner has trouble with the density. Applying a curve might just amplify noise in that case. It could also be caused by scanning in a lower bit depth than 24 bit or 48 bit (what we normally call 8 bit and 16 bit). I'm sure there could be a couple other reasons for that issue.

Even this old ISO 400 negative isn't as grainy as that example, and color negative tends to have much larger grain than slide film.

If you're biggest issue is contrast and Provia still doesn't help, you might consider using a pro C-41 film like Kodak Porta 160 NC or Fuji 160S, but these films will not be as punchy as the slide film you've been using. They are however designed for scanning, so their grain is supposed to be less noticable in scans.

Back to the digital camera topic. I hadn't thought about the LCD cover. That would probably take care of one of the two issues. I suppose turning the camera off resolves the button issue. I've found with the P&S cameras I've used (which doesn't include the newest models) that it takes a while for startup if you turn the camera off. Leaving the camera on leaves the buttons easy to push. I don't have this issue with the DSLR because it goes to sleep and can only be turned on with the shutter button. If the newer cameras like the G9 sleep and wake like the dslr that could be a good thing. One thing that is really nice about digital for these sort of snapshots is that you don't have to pay developing costs and only have to pay when you want a print. That is something I really love about digital.

Hope you find something that will work for you.

Jun 26, 2008 at 11:54 AM

reburns
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #20 · New climbing camera?

Okay, there's lots of things to try!

I went out this morning for a couple sunrise pitches in Eldorado Canyon, armed with a roll of Provia 100 in the Contax TVS. I actually forgot to clip it onto my harness, so I hollared down to my partner to climb up with it, and when there was enough spare rope I dropped a loop and hauled the camera up to the belay ledge. As mr. climbing buddy grimaced thru the last overhanging moves to the ledge, I leaned out and shot pics holding the camera at arm's reach. It truly seems that I need AF... and heck, WA for that kind of blunderbuss approach. Did any of them work? I won't know for weeks until I finish the roll. I also have a system where the camera is clipped to a shoulder sling or my waist harness by the 2' lanyard strap. When I need to drop the camera to pay attention I just drop it so it swings away from the rock. Today I know the camera tapped the rock twice. In the old days, I never would have let that happen. (p.s. buddy said about my belaying rope control, "you're worse than a photographer!" OUCH!)

Eldo at sunrise, center of the universe, 15 minutes from the house. 5D + CZ21 handheld
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/web/2007-07-31_EldoSunrise_0480sm2.JPG

1. I don't see why I can't audition a Oly E420, Ricoh, G9, Sigma DP!, and or similar, if I order from a EZ return place. Since I use Canon lenses, that's what I already have to do to get a good copy :-P

2. I should create systems to bring the 5D along on more climbs. I do have a small Lowepro waist pack (Offtrail 1), into which I can just squeeze the 5D & a short lens like 15mm fish, 24-105 or 80. I've hauled a small Camelback to bring bigger lenses.

3. Scanning. OK, here's what I've got. I have a Dell M90 17" 1920x1280 laptop running XPx32. Nikon stuff only runs on 32-bit. And I have a NEC2690 connected to a XPx64 workstation configured for engineering work (oh and a little PS work to attempt printing to this Z3100 I've also yet to learn). My scanner only can run on the laptop. What's the recommended S/W, how cheap should I go, etc. so I can run the Nikon scanner on my 64-bit workstation. It is night & day working between the laptop and that top-notch NEC monitor. Then I'll still need a workflow process for good scans.

4. I was wondering if I switched photo labs if the grain might change on developing. I do use the local pro lab, but the slides come back a little dirty.

Edited on Jun 26, 2008 at 12:01 PM

Jun 26, 2008 at 12:00 PM

1 2 end
FM Forums \| Leica & Alternative Gear \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 end