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Geo31
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p.2 #1 · The Swimmer

I don't see ANY blown highlights. Sometimes Zone 9 (or Zone 10 depending upon who is writing) is Zone 9 (or 10).

Zone 9 (or 10, depending): "Pure white: light sources and specular reflections"

May 06, 2008 at 08:56 PM

liamh
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p.2 #2 · The Swimmer

Thanks for your understanding James.

Scott, I don't know if you've read this entire thread, so I'll say it again; I have no problem with any of the C&Cs. None whatsoever - that's not to say I either have to agree with it or shouldn't explain myself further than in the original post.

I'm sorry that you think I was arguing with you, my initial response to your post was simply bemusement that you didn't understand the context of the image when I thought I had given you all of the context.

I can see from the responses that whilst you wrongly assumed things about the picture I wrongly assumed the type of picture that is considered 'Sports' on this forum.

This is a simple shot of boy swimming. When you watch him he looks like he'll sink at any moment, each stroke looks like it will be his last and yet somehow he manages to get to the other end. That's what I set out to capture. I'm sorry it doesn't measure up to your standards. But I'm cool with that

May 06, 2008 at 09:42 PM

liamh
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p.2 #3 · The Swimmer

Geo31 wrote:
I don't see ANY blown highlights. Sometimes Zone 9 (or Zone 10 depending upon who is writing) is Zone 9 (or 10).

Zone 9 (or 10, depending): "Pure white: light sources and specular reflections"

Thanks Geo31, I was happy with highlights too.

May 06, 2008 at 09:44 PM

twistedlim
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p.2 #4 · The Swimmer

I have to agree, you asked for C&C and you got it. Kind of a cool shot though. I have agree there is nothing to indicate schwimming (or racing)here

You have received some constructive ideas here, and that is what you requested. Keep shooting and keep posting. Exposure looks pretty good to me too.

Edited on May 07, 2008 at 04:55 PM

May 07, 2008 at 04:54 PM

liamh
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p.2 #5 · The Swimmer

twistedlim wrote:
I have to agree, you asked for C&C and you got it. Kind of a cool shot though. I have agree there is nothing to indicate schwimming (or racing)here

You have received some constructive ideas here, and that is what you requested. Keep shooting and keep posting. Exposure looks pretty good to me too.

Thanks for stopping by twistedlim,

The C&Cs have given me a great insight into how things work in this forum and to peoples' expectations of a 'sports' shot.

May 07, 2008 at 09:45 PM

Il Medico
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p.2 #6 · The Swimmer

liamh wrote:
Is my nephew. He swims like a man drowning

This is my first post in the sports section, I'm normally found posting in the people forum. C&C welcome, no need to hold back

May 08, 2008 at 12:17 AM

John P Mulgrew
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p.2 #7 · The Swimmer

Leave the People mentality in that forum Liam, posters in this forum are very helpful and are not really argumentative and there's no way that Scott was slamming you. The kid does look like he's drowning though and to be honest although it's a cool looking shot it is also a bit scary as well.

Post some shots of him with his arms working so viewers will know what he's doing.

May 08, 2008 at 12:31 AM

liamh
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p.2 #8 · The Swimmer

Il Medico wrote:
liamh wrote:
Is my nephew. He swims like a man drowning

This is my first post in the sports section, I'm normally found posting in the people forum. C&C welcome, no need to hold back

I have to agree with most other posters.

You say you gave us all the necessarry "content" to determine that this is a "sports" photo and that he is swimming.

Nowhere in your two sentences of "content" is it clear that he is actually swimming.

You tell us "who" he is to you.

You tell us "how" he swims.

But you never tell us "what" he is doing.

It's not clear from the photo (due to lack of "content") whether he is swimming, floating, sinking, just fell in, rolling over, etc...

You did become defensive.

There is nothing special about the way this forum "works".

Post a good/bad or otherwise shot and go from there.

It looks like a staged water portrait with nice technical elements rather than a sports shot.

Gene

Hi Gene,

I said earlier in this thread that I assumed because it is a shot of a boy swimming that it qualifies as a 'sports' shot. I now see and understand that is not the case, that's what I mean by learning how this forum works.

I also think that this misunderstanding is the cause of much of the comment on this thread as it is a staged water 'portrait' rather than a 'sports' shot. This is something I recognize now, but only because of peoples responses on this thread.

I thought I gave all the context required, "swims like he's drowning", clearly that was not enough for some. As for being defensive, again I've explained that earlier in the thread and have nothing more to add other than repeat that I have no problem whatsoever with the C&Cs regarding the shot.

Hope that clears things up.

Regards,

Liam.

May 08, 2008 at 07:04 AM

liamh
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p.2 #9 · The Swimmer

John P Mulgrew wrote:
Leave the People mentality in that forum Liam, posters in this forum are very helpful and are not really argumentative and there's no way that Scott was slamming you. The kid does look like he's drowning though and to be honest although it's a cool looking shot it is also a bit scary as well.

Post some shots of him with his arms working so viewers will know what he's doing.

Hi John,

Nowhere have I said that Scott was slamming me only that I was bemused that he didn't understand the simple context of the picture. I now understand why that was the case.

For me the strength of the shot is the ambiguity and showing more details like arms or poolside would lessen the impact of the shot and simply render it a shot of a kid who can't swim very well.

Regards,

Liam.

May 08, 2008 at 07:11 AM

liamh
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p.2 #10 · The Swimmer

theved wrote:
liamh wrote:

This is my first post in the sports section, I'm normally found posting in the people forum. C&C welcome, no need to hold back

For somebody asking for C&C, you sure seem not to take C very well.

Now since there is no need to hold back, I would have deleted this shot either while chimping, or later in Bridge. I'm not trying to be offensive, but that's my honest opinion.
However, what looks good in my eyes, may not look good in yours and vice versa.
Best of luck.

Thanks for stopping by theved,

Very constructive comments you make there. I look forward to seeing what looks good in your eyes

May 08, 2008 at 07:14 AM

John P Mulgrew
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p.2 #11 · The Swimmer

[For me the strength of the shot is the ambiguity and showing more details like arms or poolside would lessen the impact of the shot and simply render it a shot of a kid who can't swim very well.]

Liam, I don't think it belongs in here then because it really has nothing to do with sports. Now even if the little guy was having a problem with swimming and you posted a full shot of him then that would be more on topic, yours is OT.

You're a bit confrontational as well here and that's something we normally do not see in this forum either, leave it in the People forum Liam. You'll find the 2 forums are worlds apart when it comes to interaction by posters.

May 08, 2008 at 09:43 AM

liamh
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p.2 #12 · The Swimmer

John P Mulgrew wrote:
[For me the strength of the shot is the ambiguity and showing more details like arms or poolside would lessen the impact of the shot and simply render it a shot of a kid who can't swim very well.]

Liam, I don't think it belongs in here then because it really has nothing to do with sports. Now even if the little guy was having a problem with swimming and you posted a full shot of him then that would be more on topic, yours is OT.

You're a bit confrontational as well here and that's something we normally do not see in this forum either, leave it in the People forum Liam. You'll find the 2 forums are worlds apart when it comes to interaction by posters.

John,

I think we established a few posts back that this image is more of a 'portrait' than a 'sports' shot.

As for being confrontational, well, I think I have said all the way through this thread that I have no problem with people giving their opinion, good bad or indifferent.

Sounds to me that you have a problem with me posting here. Is that the case or am I misunderstanding you?

Regards,

Liam.

May 08, 2008 at 10:03 AM

John P Mulgrew
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p.2 #13 · The Swimmer

PM Sent and I'm done with this too.

May 08, 2008 at 10:12 AM

James Broome
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p.2 #14 · The Swimmer

Wow people. Can we get off Liam now, please? He's explained himself fully at this point. The barbs in this thread are now coming from the sports forum regulars, not from 'the new guy'.

Liam posted a shot that could've been in the 'People' forum, but since it was of someone doing sports, he posted it here instead. He now understands that it was more in line with the 'People' forum and not the 'Sports' forum. He's stated as much already. Why do we still have people telling him that he's 'confrontational' or that he should go back where he came from?

I'm embarrassed of our forum at this point.

Edited on May 08, 2008 at 01:36 PM

May 08, 2008 at 01:35 PM

Geo31
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p.2 #15 · The Swimmer

I think the shot is quite legit as a sports photo. Just because the photo is not of a competitive event doesn't make is less of a sports photo. If someone took a photo of Lance Armstrong running, I'm sure very few would argue that it didn't belong here. This photo is no less a sports photo because the youngster is not an athlete, more because he's not competing. It's a legit sports photo. Sports photos are staged all the time. Ask Niel Leifer or Walter Iooss.

As such, the C&C given is done so within this context. I think most of the C&C given here has been good as usual (with the exception of the "blown highlights" that aren't really blown). People who shoot sports photos on a regular basis (and most who look at them) expect the photo to explain the context of the photo. While captions are often expected for sports photos, the lack of words to bring additional meaning to the photo does not diminish from the quality of the photo (hope that is making sense - a good photo is a good photo on its own w/o words).

Again, I think the C&C was good here. Liam, ignoring the perceptions of defensiveness or confrontation, as a practical matter, I think that once you have to start explaining too many things about a photo during C&C, one simply needs to step back and consider the advice given. So, IMHO, the photo is technically interesting (in many ways more interesting to me than the 'bat on ball' photos that are posted that are otherwise not interesting), it does not accomplish what most sports photos should for the reasons spelled out already. You're a fine photographer and if you're interested in improving your sports photos (including "sportraits"), this is a helpful and knowledgeable group. There is a measure of "group think" here (as well as some out-of-the-box brilliance), but no more than in the People section. The advice is free and we all do this for fun, right?

If you captured what you had in your mind's eye, that's great! Sometimes that's hard to do with sports photos (or any photos for that matter). Consider the advice given and work with it. You don't have to be a clone. But consider the new info to improve the creative side of any sports photos you may take in the future.

May 08, 2008 at 05:19 PM

Il Medico
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p.2 #16 · The Swimmer

liamh wrote:

Hi Gene,

I said earlier in this thread that I assumed because it is a shot of a boy swimming that it qualifies as a 'sports' shot. I now see and understand that is not the case, that's what I mean by learning how this forum works.

I also think that this misunderstanding is the cause of much of the comment on this thread as it is a staged water 'portrait' rather than a 'sports' shot. This is something I recognize now, but only because of peoples responses on this thread.

I thought I gave all the context required, "swims like he's drowning", clearly that was not enough for some. As for being defensive, again I've explained that earlier in the thread and have nothing more to add other than repeat that I have no problem whatsoever with the C&Cs regarding the shot.

Hope that clears things up.

Regards,

Liam.

Hi Liam,

I'm not an English major, nor do I know if english is your first language but...

You wrote- "swims like a man drowning"

Again that doesn't tell me that he IS swimming in the photo. It tells me HOW he swims.

Big difference.

Better would've been- "Here's a shot/photo/image etc... of my nephew swimming like a man drowning".

It would then tell the viewer all that you intended and implied, which is, WHO it is, WHAT they are doing and HOW they are doing it.

Then you could've described your setup for this shot which apparently was somewhat technical.

I have no doubt you're a much better photographer than I am, but no one but you knows what went into the photo and the circumstances surrounding it.

All any of us were asking or commenting was that we wanted or needed to know to make an informed critique.

Hopefull we'll see some more of your creativity here or in the people forum.

Gene

Edited on May 08, 2008 at 10:15 PM

May 08, 2008 at 10:09 PM

liamh
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p.2 #17 · The Swimmer

Geo31 wrote:
I think the shot is quite legit as a sports photo. Just because the photo is not of a competitive event doesn't make is less of a sports photo. If someone took a photo of Lance Armstrong running, I'm sure very few would argue that it didn't belong here. This photo is no less a sports photo because the youngster is not an athlete, more because he's not competing. It's a legit sports photo. Sports photos are staged all the time. Ask Niel Leifer or Walter Iooss.

As such, the C&C given is done so within this context. I think most of the C&C given here has been good as usual (with the exception of the "blown highlights" that aren't really blown). People who shoot sports photos on a regular basis (and most who look at them) expect the photo to explain the context of the photo. While captions are often expected for sports photos, the lack of words to bring additional meaning to the photo does not diminish from the quality of the photo (hope that is making sense - a good photo is a good photo on its own w/o words).

Again, I think the C&C was good here. Liam, ignoring the perceptions of defensiveness or confrontation, as a practical matter, I think that once you have to start explaining too many things about a photo during C&C, one simply needs to step back and consider the advice given. So, IMHO, the photo is technically interesting (in many ways more interesting to me than the 'bat on ball' photos that are posted that are otherwise not interesting), it does not accomplish what most sports photos should for the reasons spelled out already. You're a fine photographer and if you're interested in improving your sports photos (including "sportraits"), this is a helpful and knowledgeable group. There is a measure of "group think" here (as well as some out-of-the-box brilliance), but no more than in the People section. The advice is free and we all do this for fun, right?

If you captured what you had in your mind's eye, that's great! Sometimes that's hard to do with sports photos (or any photos for that matter). Consider the advice given and work with it. You don't have to be a clone. But consider the new info to improve the creative side of any sports photos you may take in the future.

Hey Geo31,

Thanks for taking the time to write that, I think it's fair and balanced. Actually, I already do a few 'sportraits', though I'm not sure this is necessarily the right place to share them

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/622948/0#5507660

Regards,

Liam.

May 08, 2008 at 10:49 PM

liamh
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p.2 #18 · The Swimmer

Il Medico wrote:
Hi Liam,

I'm not an English major, nor do I know if english is your first language but...

Hi Gene, I know you didn't mean to be funny but I laughed out loud when I read that.

All I can do, as a man born a mile from where Shakespeare performed his plays, is to quote Oscar Wilde, "Two nations separated by a common language".

Kind regards,

Liam.

Edited on May 08, 2008 at 10:55 PM

May 08, 2008 at 10:54 PM

rbranan
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p.2 #19 · The Swimmer

great portrait shot. nice two-light set up.

May 09, 2008 at 05:39 PM

liamh
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p.2 #20 · The Swimmer

rbranan wrote:
great portrait shot. nice two-light set up.

Thanks rbranan, I take it you mean the footballer I linked above and not the swimmer on this thread

May 09, 2008 at 08:29 PM


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