VickiB wrote:
P.S. I would like to add one thing: I mostly look at the Nikon, landscape, abstract, and black and white forums here at FM, and I have posted photos there from time to time. In those areas, everyone seems genuinely eager to encourage and even assist those who frankly admit that they are novices--or even that they are old hands whio want to improve. Why is it that the wedding forum inspires such anger and negativity?
Vicki... a thought to put things in perspective. When someone takes sunset shots somewhere along the Blue Ridge Parkway and the images come out crappy, do you figure the mountains shed a tear because of it? Do you suppose the park rangers filed suit against the photographer? Is there the slightest suspicion that the trees are telling all their friends how landscape photographers are a bunch of scam artists? You're comparing apples to oranges. A profession vs. a hobby... and yes, sure there are photographers making money from landscape photography, but the casual shooter isn't going to sell a magazine editor on buying their crap instead of the pro's awe inspiring images. Brides are a bit more susceptible to hiring someone that's going to ruin their images than a photo editor.
I spend a thousand or two a year on workshops, seminars, classes, professional forums, etc. to be the very, very best wedding photographer I can. I work hard at improving my skills and growing my creativity. I don't show-up with one camera body and a 'kit' lens or two. I understand that weddings are a very dynamic thing and that there are no "do-overs." You get it right or your clients get shafted! So yeah, it bothers me a bit that every soccer mom that stumbles into Best Buy and walks out with the latest flavor consumer DSLR and a couple kit lenses suddenly think she's the world's answer to great wedding photography. Two or three P.O.'d brides later, and maybe a lawsuit tossed in, she'll be out of there... but not without soiling the reputation of everyone with the term wedding photographer associated with their trade.
You make some pretty demeaning assumptions about the typical wedding photographer's people skills. "I'd rather have the personal attention..." Personal attention, good people skills, exceeding client's expectations are all important aspects of the profession of wedding photography. The level of personal attention you'd receive from most professional wedding photographers would probably blow you away. Problem is, the people without a clue, no training or experience are killing our reputations.
But hey, what do you do for a living. Maybe I got what it takes to just walk in and start doing it.
VickiB wrote:
... I get a kick out of the venom that results whenever someone dares to think he could scale those same hallowed walls. .... the vicious critiques many of you offer to those with ambitions in the wedding business; I have also read snide comments about a bride's big nose/thick neck/chunky waist. ... invented to showcase your ability to exploit the desires of wealthy brides and grooms and momzillas (yes, I have read far too many of your catty posts) and in the process think you are creating art.
Intruiging. So in essence you hang around this forum for the 'venom' then scorn the people that use it. Your hobby is to look down on people, for looking down on others.
To answer your question, I'd say Yes and No.
Yes, for the reason that you have the equipments.
No, because it takes time to become a wedding photographer (talking experience).. you need to be tough at all times!, learn the basics and business matters plus people skills.. (if you think you have it, then skip it.. :-)
mirek wrote:
Hi PhotosByRDD! I posted the original set - this may have been lost in the thread. Consumer DSLR and lens kit from Walmart....? my kit is Canon 1Ds2 (then) 1Ds3 (now) + a set of finest L lenses. You cannot probably even afford all of it despite your succesful wedding photographer business.
Someone earlier mentioned I had got an FM spank. Oh well, I must have ... And I tell all others - there are nicer forums at FM to spend your leisure time at, so I'm not even subscribing to this thread anymore. What a bunch of unfriendly group here. Unbelievable. I'm glad I'm NOT a wedding photographer. I'm out of this place.
Well then you answered your own question......you are NOT a wedding photographer........
Its interesting how some people don't like to hear negative opinions.....they only want to hear how great they are, how wonderful they can be, blah blah blah.........it takes a strong person to take criticism, absorb it, analyze it and use it to make ones self better..............if everyone only gave glowing responses to everything here, how would that help you ?
And that is the problem with other forums out there.........they are so MODIFIED up that the users are so afraid of speaking their honest feelings that everything they post is garbage and lies................telling members their work is great, their style is great....blah blah blah......when in reality it isnt..............
So what is better......hearing honest opinions or lies ?
mirek,
Take alot of this in stride. Photographers can be a tough group. I think what this comes down to is some people just do not have alot of tact. It's OK to criticize on these forums, but HOW someone does it is very important. Running a photography business if part art, part science. Be a great photographer, but also understand people, and try to understand their perspective.
I took a lot of bad shots when I first took photography classes in college, but those mistakes made me a better photographer. I still take plenty of "duds" but I keep learning and keep shooting. Hang in there.
Edited by mulder32 on Mar 31, 2008 at 09:33 PM GMT
mirek wrote:
hassy501you seem to have missed the original point of this thread.
I never mind anyone criticise my work. That is WHY I come here and ask for C&C.
Why don't you check the topic of the thread.
What I don't want to hear, don't like, am surprised with is how this discussion is turning away from the subject.
I'm not here to fight with anyone, or to hear about your own egos, how great you are in comparison to what I POST not what I CAN, and how great your kit is, or anything like it.
-mirek
"C and C" is a wide gamut........maybe you should be more specific......to answer your original question ..........
From your posted images, NO you dont have what it takes to be a wedding photographer, RIGHT NOW...........
One thing often forgotten here on this fourm is everyone has to start with weddings somewhere, dont worry i get bashed around here on this fourm often as well. But truth be told no one in the industry where I live wants to let me work for them and shadow, there are no workshops, and you can only read so much..nothing replaces practice practice practice..So do it.
I went and browsed through your website you have some awesome sports shots of the tennis games. And also quite a bit of time behind the lens in different landscape scenarios judging by your equipment and portfolio you are not 'some guy with a camera'
Weddings are a bit different than sports, you have to create the moment it doesn't come to you, you also have control over your surroundings and lighting something you do not have with a sport event. Sports photography is all about timing. Wedding photography is all about execution.
Another thing to keep in mind is that unlike sports photography which is essentially a photo journalistic approach where the image needs to stay mostly as it was when it entered the camera, Wedding photography is highly demanding on post processing and photoshoping skills. I am quickly learning that a great exposure on a camera is only half the battle, Wedding photographers make there dollar and name on what happens within photoshop to give the photos a magical feel to them. This is where I have a ways to catch up.
I think you would find it exciting and challenging, much like I do. And I say go for it.
As for the shots of the couple, I do not think these are indicative of what you can do, you were a background photographer you had no control of posing, little time to set up lighting and as you said were always jumping out of the way of the main.
Anyways best of luck to ya, If you want to try it out go for it and dont let the crowd here scare you away!
You can be anything you want to be if you put your mind to it....As far as going pro as a wedding photographer and charging people $$$ i would seriously wait a while as your work has "Uncle Bob" written all over it!
Play around adjust yourself to the technical aspect of the profession - read lots - nail your exposure and lighting.
Most industries have some level of tertiary education and are regulated to a certain degree photography however isnt so by taking shortcuts you Are only doing potential clients a disservice and you could up open up a floodgate of unnecessary litigation matters against you if you are not careful.
If its what you want ...Go for it but please take your time for your sake as well as the rest of the industry.
mirek wrote:
Ha! Good grief. What a different place to other forums. Maybe this is good - one can get tumbled a bit once in a while
How do I reply to all this? It's the same question as "how do you eat an elephant? - one piece at a time".
No, I'm not a wedding photographer. And no, I don't want to become one. I shoot landscapes, nature & wildlife, and people (candid portraits). None of these are to make money, anyway. I post a little bit in other forums every now and then. I've had a good degree of success, if not showing in the selection in the forums (as some shots are on display there to experiment, or stir, or get constructive C&C rather make it a showcase). I've had two major photography exhibitions in Tokyo, and one in Sydney, though.
Do i know the basics of photography? I tend to think so.
I wasn't a wedding photographer on that shoot. There was an appointed Japanese "pro" photographer. I was visiting Tokyo at the time and got invited to a friend's wedding. The venue was Tokyo Disneyland - hence the Disney theme/surroundings. Clearly not a traditional Japanese wedding. I took opportunity to take some shots, as the B asked me - as a backup. They are more candid shots than wedding shots. I was working hard and fast I remember, following B&G and the other photographer. It was crazy I remember, and I should have slowed down and focussed on what I like doing the best. But I guess I thought that the B was serious about the "backup". It wasn't the best way to shoot a wedding - trying to avoid being in the way of the official photographer, and B&G. So - enough of the background. BTW - I shared all my shots with the B&G and their family (sent a DVD, and put together a website) and they enjoyed them a lot more than the shots produced by the official wedding photographer. For free
I have the feeling that this forum is different because wedding photography is such a competitive business. It shows here as well. In other forums, people just enjoy photography, enjoy the C&C, as most of folks frequenting those forums are enthusiasts, not necesserily making a lot of money from shooting. Well - I may as well be wrong.
I take all your criticism about my lack of skills without any offence. It wasn't a showcase of what I can do, it was more a pretext for a discussion here.
cheers,
-mirek
...Show more →
I agree that this forum is quite unique and not always in a good way. I have seen some totally useless comments of otherwise very good images. Seems as though by people just HAVE to say something and photography being what it is (an art) everyone will view it differently. A bit of example. I went to a modern art gallery recently and was bored shitless by random balls of string thrown onto the floor and a room with nothing in it. Apparently to some these things speak volumes to them, to me they are a waste of time.
There are a lot of photographers out there who have been told by friends and family who really dont know much about photography that they should be a wedding photographer. Like those people who are told they can sing when in fact they cant. Anyone can be taught how to sing, anyone can be taught how to take photos but i will always believe you have to have some innate gift that can not be taught.
I prefer to take advice from people I can have a face to face chat with and those who I lookup to. If I could specifically include selected members of this forum to comment on my photos who I know and admire then I would... but that isnt how the forum works.
I posted a few things on a sports photography forum once and was told something along the lines of "oh it doesnt show enough action etc etc" and my favorite all time comment on this sports forum is "it needs to be wider to get more context" hahaha The so called boring photo I took was picked up by Nike and used world wide. Which is kinda why I took it. I didnt know Nike wanted it at the time but I know what a good commercial shot looks like and I try to make them.
PhotosByRDD wrote:
Vicki... a thought to put things in perspective. When someone takes sunset shots somewhere along the Blue Ridge Parkway and the images come out crappy, do you figure the mountains shed a tear because of it? Do you suppose the park rangers filed suit against the photographer? Is there the slightest suspicion that the trees are telling all their friends how landscape photographers are a bunch of scam artists? You're comparing apples to oranges. A profession vs. a hobby... and yes, sure there are photographers making money from landscape photography, but the casual shooter isn't going to sell a magazine editor on buying their crap instead of the pro's awe inspiring images. Brides are a bit more susceptible to hiring someone that's going to ruin their images than a photo editor.
I spend a thousand or two a year on workshops, seminars, classes, professional forums, etc. to be the very, very best wedding photographer I can. I work hard at improving my skills and growing my creativity. I don't show-up with one camera body and a 'kit' lens or two. I understand that weddings are a very dynamic thing and that there are no "do-overs." You get it right or your clients get shafted! So yeah, it bothers me a bit that every soccer mom that stumbles into Best Buy and walks out with the latest flavor consumer DSLR and a couple kit lenses suddenly think she's the world's answer to great wedding photography. Two or three P.O.'d brides later, and maybe a lawsuit tossed in, she'll be out of there... but not without soiling the reputation of everyone with the term wedding photographer associated with their trade.
You make some pretty demeaning assumptions about the typical wedding photographer's people skills. "I'd rather have the personal attention..." Personal attention, good people skills, exceeding client's expectations are all important aspects of the profession of wedding photography. The level of personal attention you'd receive from most professional wedding photographers would probably blow you away. Problem is, the people without a clue, no training or experience are killing our reputations.
But hey, what do you do for a living. Maybe I got what it takes to just walk in and start doing it. ...Show more →
I caused all sorts of $hit on another forum for suggesting a similar thing to a lady who posted images from her 400D, kit lens and pop up flash that were snap shots yet she was claiming they were "amazing" shots and that you can get great photos from cheaper non-pro cameras. Which is true, but having appropriate gear helps make the image you imagine in your head without barriers such as only having a f5.6 max ap. on your zoom.
mirek wrote:
Hi PhotosByRDD! I posted the original set - this may have been lost in the thread. Consumer DSLR and lens kit from Walmart....? my kit is Canon 1Ds2 (then) 1Ds3 (now) + a set of finest L lenses. You cannot probably even afford all of it despite your succesful wedding photographer business.
I gave an example of what's happening in this industry, not even addressed to you but addressed to someone else that compared my profession to a form of photography that is more often pursued as a hobby than as a profession. (I don't know a lot of amateur wedding photographers... no... wait... let me rephrase that... people the admit/claim to be amateur wedding photographers!). That poster failed to understand why wedding photographers get a little definsive lately. I explained why and you obviously missed the entire point.
That reply had nothing to do with what kind of equipment used... and, not to be mean to you, but that is clearly demonstrated by the images you offered. There's no 'pop' to them, the color balance seems off in virtually every one, there's nothing that would indicate "top of the line, bad a** camera and lenses.
I had a meeting with a bride & groom last night. Not to try and book her as I already have her booked, but to discuss what her expectations are. We spent two hours going through what she wanted, how she wanted it, etc. At one point she pulled out a photo taken of her MOH's wedding and asked me if I thought it was shot with one of those disposable cameras. I looked at and based on how the shadowing was and the lack-luster quality of the contrast and color I said yes. She laughed and told me that it was taken by her "MOH's" professional photographer. She went on to tell me how terrible of a job the guy did and how disappointed her frined was. THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE POST, BTW! When folks haphazzardly decide to call themselves a "wedding photographer" they're messing with a one time event that is very significant in someone else's life!
Someone earlier mentioned I had got an FM spank. Oh well, I must have ... And I tell all others - there are nicer forums at FM to spend your leisure time at, so I'm not even subscribing to this thread anymore. What a bunch of unfriendly group here. Unbelievable. I'm glad I'm NOT a wedding photographer. I'm out of this place.
-mirek
So you feel we should be dishonest and "nice" so not to hurt every newbe/wannabe that comes along despite that being dishonest and unrealisticly positive has the potential of causing great pain and distress to some bride or brides out there? Or that giving you the wrong encouragement might result in you finding yourself in the middle of a lawsuit for ruining some poor girl's wedding photos?
Wedding photography is not a game. A lot of responsibility comes along with it. If you want to be one, you can. I just ask that you approach it in a realistic manner, not with some casual attitude. I'd also hope that you'd willing to accept honest advice and be able to handle a bit of critisim. Becuase honestly the "spanking" you've received here pales in comparison to what you'd get from some bride, groom and their families if you present them with a pile of crap photos from their wedding.
I'm more than willing to help people out that ask legitimate questions and demonstrate a real desire and interest in being in this business. "Hey look at my pretty pictures can I be one of you guys" isn't a demonstration of serious desire, a legitimate question or an indication of a serious attitude about the business. Sorry. That's just the way it is.
Go play nice in a forum where you're not messing with other people's lives, by screwing up. Or hang around here and try to learn something but don't expect anything but brutal honesty because of the potential consequences. That's entirely your choice.
PhotosByRDD wrote:
I gave an example of what's happening in this industry, not even addressed to you but addressed to someone else that compared my profession to a form of photography that is more often pursued as a hobby than as a profession. (I don't know a lot of amateur wedding photographers... no... wait... let me rephrase that... people the admit/claim to be amateur wedding photographers!). That poster failed to understand why wedding photographers get a little definsive lately. I explained why and you obviously missed the entire point.
That reply had nothing to do with what kind of equipment used... and, not to be mean to you, but that is clearly demonstrated by the images you offered. There's no 'pop' to them, the color balance seems off in virtually every one, there's nothing that would indicate "top of the line, bad a** camera and lenses.
I had a meeting with a bride & groom last night. Not to try and book her as I already have her booked, but to discuss what her expectations are. We spent two hours going through what she wanted, how she wanted it, etc. At one point she pulled out a photo taken of her MOH's wedding and asked me if I thought it was shot with one of those disposable cameras. I looked at and based on how the shadowing was and the lack-luster quality of the contrast and color I said yes. She laughed and told me that it was taken by her "MOH's" professional photographer. She went on to tell me how terrible of a job the guy did and how disappointed her frined was. THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE POST, BTW! When folks haphazzardly decide to call themselves a "wedding photographer" they're messing with a one time event that is very significant in someone else's life!
So you feel we should be dishonest and "nice" so not to hurt every newbe/wannabe that comes along despite that being dishonest and unrealisticly positive has the potential of causing great pain and distress to some bride or brides out there? Or that giving you the wrong encouragement might result in you finding yourself in the middle of a lawsuit for ruining some poor girl's wedding photos?
Wedding photography is not a game. A lot of responsibility comes along with it. If you want to be one, you can. I just ask that you approach it in a realistic manner, not with some casual attitude. I'd also hope that you'd willing to accept honest advice and be able to handle a bit of critisim. Becuase honestly the "spanking" you've received here pales in comparison to what you'd get from some bride, groom and their families if you present them with a pile of crap photos from their wedding.
I'm more than willing to help people out that ask legitimate questions and demonstrate a real desire and interest in being in this business. "Hey look at my pretty pictures can I be one of you guys" isn't a demonstration of serious desire, a legitimate question or an indication of a serious attitude about the business. Sorry. That's just the way it is.
Go play nice in a forum where you're not messing with other people's lives, by screwing up. Or hang around here and try to learn something but don't expect anything but brutal honesty because of the potential consequences. That's entirely your choice. ...Show more →
Who said anything about being dishonest to this poster? Be honest, but at least try to be tactful. Seriously...some of the people in here just lack basic people skills. They have great portfolios, the best equipment, can use Photoshop in their sleep, but are just downright nasty. Maybe I'm the only one who started out and didn't know jack, but learned (and continue to learn).
If mirek has bad photos, tell him they need work and what he can do to improve them, but let's get some people skills in here (and I'm not just singling out the previous poster).
My last reply was in response to this comment from the OP:
my kit is Canon 1Ds2 (then) 1Ds3 (now) + a set of finest L lenses. You cannot probably even afford all of it despite your succesful wedding photographer business.
Nothing too tactful there at all.
I was the first to reply. I replied in an honest manner that was intended to also be a bit tounge in cheek/humorish and slightly sarcastic. It included a "smilie" at the end. Several posts later someone else suggested that the wedding photographers were being mean, especially compared to the Landscape, B&W Vision and a third that I don't recall off the top of my head. I responded to that post and pointed out why I didn't think the comparisons had any merit. Then the OP decided to respond to the reply to that person (VikiB as I recall) tossing in the high-dollar, "my gear's better than your gear," immature gobblety-goop. And honestly if someone wants to post snap shot quality, off color, poorly exposed images then cop an attitude about their big-money gear... well they just ought to expect to raise someone's dander.
There's an old saying that I try to keep in mind; "Don't ask any question if you may not be able to handle the answer."
I'm more than glad to share knowledge and answer questions from people who seem genuinely interested in pursuing photography as a business and who ask reasonable questions. I don't have all the answers but will do my best as long as I sense sincerety, respect and a positive attitude. But there are people jumping into this that don't have a clue, aren't really interested in doing it right, and that are hurting the image of wedding photography as a profession. I'm a little protective and don't particularly react well to those types.
If being passionate about one's pursuits is a bad attribute, I guess I'm guilty.
If mirek has bad photos, tell him they need work and what he can do to improve them, but let's get some people skills in here (and I'm not just singling out the previous poster).
BTW, I didn't make a single comment about his photos until he decided to shift into gear-brag mode. At that point it seemed he needed a reality check and a reminder of the oft mentioned theory that "it's not the equipment it's the photographer."
People skills and writing skills are two totally different skills...........putting ones thoughts down is an art in itself and one's thoughts can be interpreted so differently based on the readers own views............
Tact is also open to interpretation.........what one person would view as tactless would be viewed by someone else as no big deal.........our life's experiences, upbringing and social experiences give us our unique views on the latter..........
Some people just have "thicker skin" than others..........
Thats the inherent problem with open forums.........you can't please all of the people all of the time, and no matter how "nice" a person tries to be, their will always be someone who is offended...............
The only way to avoid that is by..............................................................................................................................................
Hi PhotosByRDD! I posted the original set - this may have been lost in the thread. Consumer DSLR and lens kit from Walmart....? my kit is Canon 1Ds2 (then) 1Ds3 (now) + a set of finest L lenses. You cannot probably even afford all of it despite your succesful wedding photographer business.
I was going to just keep on my way until I read that. If you shot those images with a 1Ds2 and a set of the finest L lenses you need to do everyone a favor and get right over to the "Buy and Sell" forums.
It isn't those that post crit on work, when you post here that is what you want. Brutal and honest criticism of the work and techniques used. I don't think many wedding photographers hear "the bad" if any from clients; hence why many of us come here to post.
The posters that ruin the FM Wedding section is those that;
A.) Can't take the crit
B.) Post "Can I..." topics with unedited and not technical sound work
C.) Get upset, and become "caddy"
Beware of the lollipop of mediocrity; one lick and you suck for life...
Edited by JLinkowitz on Mar 29, 2008 at 10:33 PM GMT
Edited by JLinkowitz on Mar 29, 2008 at 10:34 PM GMT
OMG HASSY!!! How cruel!! Everyone knows that ... is tactful and anything more than..... is totally offensive!!! I mean really man... come on! (was that too many smilies?!)
