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lordarka Offline Image Upload: On Beauty and Honor! liamh wrote: Harry T wrote: A lot of active duty personnel make common mistakes with the flag everyday without ever knowing it and most of us will still fight and die for what it represents. Could you explain what the flag represents? I think that may help clarify why some folk get so hot under the collar with this issue. One of the reasons why there is so much debate over proper use and respect for the flag is because it represents different things to different people, and almost all of those meanings or representations are reasonable. Each has its logical consequences, however. To some, the flag itself is talismanic, subjected to the same respect one might confer upon a religious symbol or spiritual idol. To others, it represents a way of life, or social values, or a history of national and personal struggle that transcends the physical object. I think it's possible to conflate the icon reverence with the ideology, but in so doing, I think you lose a key element of the ideology; to speak freely and openly. To argue that the OP's pictures (which are excellent, btw) are somehow disrespectful to what the flag represents is, in my view, laughably absurd. Alternatively, if the flag itself were a talisman worthy of respect in and of itself, it would call not only for a free speech restraint with respect to its use in symbolic speech, but it would also lead us to the nonsensical conclusion that the OP disrespected the flag by using to support our apparently patriotic servicemen at war. I quite frankly don't see the value of walking down that philosophical path. Arka C. Apr 03, 2008 at 12:45 AM

Dante King Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! lordarka wrote: One of the reasons why there is so much debate over proper use and respect for the flag is because it represents different things to different people, and almost all of those meanings or representations are reasonable. Each has its logical consequences, however. To some, the flag itself is talismanic, subjected to the same respect one might confer upon a religious symbol or spiritual idol. To others, it represents a way of life, or social values, or a history of national and personal struggle that transcends the physical object. I think it's possible to conflate the icon reverence with the ideology, but in so doing, I think you lose a key element of the ideology; to speak freely and openly. To argue that the OP's pictures (which are excellent, btw) are somehow disrespectful to what the flag represents is, in my view, laughably absurd. Alternatively, if the flag itself were a talisman worthy of respect in and of itself, it would call not only for a free speech restraint with respect to its use in symbolic speech, but it would also lead us to the nonsensical conclusion that the OP disrespected the flag by using to support our apparently patriotic servicemen at war. I quite frankly don't see the value of walking down that philosophical path. Arka C. The guidelines published by the US Gov't regarding the flag is not a philosophical path. It outlines in a clear manner regardless of meaning to any citizen, for the use, display and disposal of the flag. It seems that in todays society, one can justify about anything and find validity in their argument based on their feelings. Photos are great!! This kind of use of the flag by service people? Find that upsetting as y'all should know better. Apr 06, 2008 at 04:50 AM

Alex53 Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! Nice shots. #2 is very well lit imo and stands out to me. About the flag, the code states the flag cannot be worn, not that clothes fashoined to make them look like the flag cannot be worn. A 'flag inspired' bikini, tube top, bed sheet, etc are not the flag. Apr 06, 2008 at 07:39 AM

liamh Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! lordarka wrote: To argue that the OP's pictures (which are excellent, btw) are somehow disrespectful to what the flag represents is, in my view, laughably absurd. Alternatively, if the flag itself were a talisman worthy of respect in and of itself, it would call not only for a free speech restraint with respect to its use in symbolic speech, but it would also lead us to the nonsensical conclusion that the OP disrespected the flag by using to support our apparently patriotic servicemen at war. I quite frankly don't see the value of walking down that philosophical path. Arka C. I can agree with that. I remember being in the Soviet Union years ago, everywhere you turned there was a depiction of Lenin or a hammer and sickle and to me all the iconography led to a feeling that somehow this nation were worshipping a false god. History, of couse showed us all that they mostly felt the same way. Alex53 wrote: About the flag, the code states the flag cannot be worn, not that clothes fashoined to make them look like the flag cannot be worn. A 'flag inspired' bikini, tube top, bed sheet, etc are not the flag. Now that makes perfect sense to me. A representation of the flag is one thing, but the flag itself is something altogether. So, I guess the Ryder Cup wives are okay to wear their patriotic sweaters but does that mean, when a US athlete wins gold at the Olympics, picks up a flag from the crowd and drapes it round his shoulders for the photo call that he is being disrespectful because he is wearing the flag like a cloak? Apr 06, 2008 at 08:32 AM

lordarka Offline Image Upload: On Beauty and Honor! Dante King wrote: The guidelines published by the US Gov't regarding the flag is not a philosophical path. It outlines in a clear manner regardless of meaning to any citizen, for the use, display and disposal of the flag. It seems that in todays society, one can justify about anything and find validity in their argument based on their feelings. Read the statute; it refers to treatment of the flag in terms of "should" rather than "shall." This indicates that the title section is advisory, and not positive law. Additionally, the federal courts have ruled that statutory authority obliging citizens to treat the advisory flag treatment guidelines as law are unconstitutional. Given the role of the courts in saying what the law is, and their role in interpreting the Constitution, any statutory authority conflicting with this interpretation of the Constitution would not be enforceable. Hence, you are, in fact, free to take whatever philosophical path you want, because the Constitution permits it. Congress cannot pass statutes that conflict with the Constitution, hence the advisory character of the code section you all cite to in defense of your iconic patriotism. Photos are great!! This kind of use of the flag by service people? Find that upsetting as y'all should know better. Know better? To exercise the free speech rights they fight for in a way that helps their comrades in arms? Seems like they're among the few here who understand what it means to live in a free society. Arka C. Apr 06, 2008 at 09:47 AM

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