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FipChris Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! Hello everyone. I'd really appreciate your C&C on these images from today. 1. 2 3. 4. 5. 6. Thanks for looking -Chris Mar 27, 2008 at 09:08 AM

Andre Goli Offline Image Upload: On Beauty and Honor! Well done, favorite ones are 3 and 6, outstanding.... However, the first one looks overprocessed for my taste, it misses something in the 2 and 5 and don't really like the B&W Process of the 5. Mar 27, 2008 at 12:04 PM

FipChris Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! Thank you for taking the time to comment Andre. The first was one of my favorites but the processing is certainly a matter of taste. Thanks again Chris Mar 27, 2008 at 05:20 PM

jerryrock Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! The U.S. Flag Code, section 4-(d) states: "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery...." Mar 27, 2008 at 08:13 PM

vinke Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! i'd re-think the honor part. or maybe you just don't know? but don't feel too bad...many well-intended people abuse our flag. here's the fat-n-skinny on the subject: http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html Mar 27, 2008 at 08:49 PM

thepiecesfit Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! desecration of the US flag. Mar 27, 2008 at 09:47 PM

Geo31 Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! Thank you for the responses regarding the abuse of our flag. That is the honor in this thread. No disrespect is intended to the OP as I am assuming it was done through ignorance of proper respect for the flag. Mar 28, 2008 at 12:34 AM

FipChris Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! There is no disrespect intended here to any person or our flag. I am a 9 year veteran of the US Army, my wife for 6 years, both our fathers are Vietnam Vets. This young lady happens to be in the Air Force. Her husband is currently serving in Iraq with many of our friends. These images were taken as something to be sent to him. I am, however, a bit disheartened with you all....comments like these: U.S. Flag code........ Desecration of the flag....... Ignorance........ Just don't know better........ Are a bit harsh. It not surprising though. It's actually common to see a bunch of people stand around pointing their finger and quick to put someone down. Nice to see so many keyboard enthusiasts are still here. Here's another spin.... You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Mar 28, 2008 at 02:03 AM

poodlelvr Offline Image Upload: On Beauty and Honor! More power to you; you understand the true meaning of our flag....I was in the service also, as was my husband and my son has been in Afganistan once and is about to go back Mar 28, 2008 at 02:20 AM

kfry25 Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! I certainly don't feel qualified to comment on the technical aspects of some of the pictures on this forum as I am little more than an advanced beginner...is that a real category?.....but # 3 is amazing in my opinion! Mar 28, 2008 at 02:24 AM

Kopey Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! I think these images are great. I live in Canada so I don't really get why it's so offensive to use the flag in this manner. If she was burning it then I could understand. I think the photos are great and I love the lighting and colours. I think her husband will LOVE them! In the end, that's all that matters. Great job! Robert. Mar 28, 2008 at 02:39 AM

bluxx Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! I like them but not sure about the mix of the flag, the heels and the serious expression. Wearing a flag and looking so appealing might suggest a more mischevious expression? Or cute with a touch of a smile? but I like them all. Like to see a bit of a smile when the model looks so attractive in this mode. Mar 28, 2008 at 03:29 AM

markperez Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! The U.S. Flag Code, section 4-(d) states: "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery...." you knew people had to bring this up when there was no obvious disrespect intended. Heck this could have been a sheet with the american flag on it. Would it have been ok then? People need to look at the act and not focus on the reading the rules. Anyways I think they are all well done. The only issue I have is the first one. The shadows kind of make her face look a little puffy. Mar 28, 2008 at 12:40 PM

richiebaz Online Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! Wow! I like the pictures except for the shadows. The flag misuse I can never agree with no matter how many years the photographer or the subject has spent in the military services and how much the misuse or dis-respect was un-intended. Either the lady is wrapping the flag around her "naked" body or she isn't. Either she is sitting on it or she isn't. There is no question of what the photographer or the subject was intending to represent... the representation is already made in the picture. Mar 28, 2008 at 01:56 PM

liamh Online Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! Interesting comments about the flag. Remind me someone please, did Madonna get into trouble when she featured the Stars & Stripes in her video for American Pie? FWIW, I'm not one for nationalism but if you think the Stars and Stripes is being disrespected you should see what they do to ours: (Warning: NWS) http://www.unionjackwear.co.uk/prodlist.asp?cat=Underwear As for the pictures; interesting lighting and I like the processing. #2 is my favorite but some of the posing makes the model look a bit large. Mar 28, 2008 at 03:17 PM

snedigity1 Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! I would like to know you tide the flag on here like that well done. Mar 28, 2008 at 03:33 PM

Numfar Offline Buy and Sell: On Beauty and Honor! I quite like the lighting, and think you did well. 2 is my favourite, and I like 3, with the small caveat that the background looks a bit pink on my monitor, whereas the bars are red, and to my eye, it doesn't quite set off the subject as well as a more red-red would, but again, this may just be my monitor. As for the flag-abuse criticisms - they'll be there anytime an American flag is used like this - it's not personal. Personally, I think it's akin to religious fundamentalism to regard a piece of material in this way, but that's just an opinion, and I'm not American, so can't understand the attachment to symbols in the way that an American may. And my opinion is no more correct than that of people who feel as strongly on the other side of the issue. My point, however, is that you shouldn't look at the flag opinions as reflective on your photography - it's another issue altogether. In short, good work. Do listen to opinions on processing and lighting, don't worry much at all about other people's politics or agendas. Mar 28, 2008 at 04:06 PM

bka20d Offline Image Upload: On Beauty and Honor! FipChris wrote: There is no disrespect intended here to any person or our flag. I am a 9 year veteran of the US Army, my wife for 6 years, both our fathers are Vietnam Vets. This young lady happens to be in the Air Force. Her husband is currently serving in Iraq with many of our friends. These images were taken as something to be sent to him. I am, however, a bit disheartened with you all....comments like these: U.S. Flag code........ Desecration of the flag....... Ignorance........ Just don't know better........ Are a bit harsh. It not surprising though. It's actually common to see a bunch of people stand around pointing their finger and quick to put someone down. Nice to see so many keyboard enthusiasts are still here. Here's another spin.... You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. by posting and asking for criticism and comments you actually opened the door inviting people to express their opinion. When you isolate the words or portion of a phrase, i can understand how you might find some of them insulting, but in the context which they were originally written, all they really do is express dismay over the use of the flag as a photographic prop as you have used it, and/or question its appropriateness. your patriotism was not questioned, only the use of the flag in your images. the use of certain symbols in photographs or as photographic props have been at the center of lots of controversies:.....it was only last december for example, that the use of a noose on the cover of a national magazine caused an uproar and resulted in the firing of the magazine editor. for some who saw the cover the noose was just a piece of rope, but for others it was a symbol of a racially divided america, and a very ugly chapter in american history. was the use of the noose illegal ? of course not... was it an example of poor judgement? apparently the editor did not think so...but enough of the public and his bosses did. for some who look at you flag images, they may be fine , but others may find the use of the flag in essence as a skirt, tube top and sheet problematic. heck the reaction to symbols as photographic tools is not just an american thing: when annie lebowitz photographed the queen of england, there were some who saw the video and questioned the appropriateness of her request that the queen remove her tiara, as it was an official part of her costume. there were some who felt the request was just downright disrespectful. for me personally, the issue is less about how you used the flag, but more about what is the meaning of this "iconic" symbol in the context of the image: for some this might not matter, but from my perspective, it does. since i can't seem to find a meaning, i can only wonder if you could have achieved a similar result with the model drapped in another fabric. Mar 28, 2008 at 05:02 PM

liamh Online Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! bka20d wrote: heck the reaction to symbols as photographic tools is not just an american thing: when annie lebowitz photographed the queen of england, there were some who saw the video and questioned the appropriateness of her request that the queen remove her tiara, as it was an official part of her costume. there were some who felt the request was just downright disrespectful. for me personally, the issue is less about how you used the flag, but more about what is the meaning of this "iconic" symbol in the context of the image: for some this might not matter, but from my perspective, it does. since i can't seem to find a meaning, i can only wonder if you could have achieved a similar result with the model drapped in another fabric. Sorry, but you're wrong about the Queen. The reason for the furore over the Leibowitz portrait was that a BBC documentary team misrepresented what happened. With some injudicious editing they attempted to make it look like the Queen had lost her temper when in truth she had not. Who cares what you or I or anyone else thinks about the use of the flag it only matters what that young lady's husband thinks. And I think he'll find them most agreeable. Mar 28, 2008 at 05:24 PM

FipChris Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! Thanks everyone for your photo critique. The shadows mentioned a few times were intentional. For those more concerned with the flag......thanks for expressing your opinions. -Chris Mar 28, 2008 at 06:02 PM

FipChris Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! snedigity1 wrote: I would like to know you tide the flag on here like that well done. The top was held by a small spring clamp behind her. The bottom is just wrapped and she is sitting on the edges holding it together. Hope this helps -Chris Mar 28, 2008 at 06:03 PM

johnny0110 Offline Image Upload: On Beauty and Honor! The pics are nice.... and to be honest, I never even thought about the use of the flag as a bad thing. I was looking at the photo, like the rest of you should be doing...... The OP said, "I'd really appreciate your C&C on these images from today." Never did it say, "please comment on how wrong you think I am for using the flag like this". Have a nice day. Johnny T. Mar 28, 2008 at 07:28 PM

bka20d Offline Image Upload: On Beauty and Honor! liamh wrote: bka20d wrote: heck the reaction to symbols as photographic tools is not just an american thing: when annie lebowitz photographed the queen of england, there were some who saw the video and questioned the appropriateness of her request that the queen remove her tiara, as it was an official part of her costume. there were some who felt the request was just downright disrespectful. for me personally, the issue is less about how you used the flag, but more about what is the meaning of this "iconic" symbol in the context of the image: for some this might not matter, but from my perspective, it does. since i can't seem to find a meaning, i can only wonder if you could have achieved a similar result with the model drapped in another fabric. Sorry, but you're wrong about the Queen. The reason for the furore over the Leibowitz portrait was that a BBC documentary team misrepresented what happened. With some injudicious editing they attempted to make it look like the Queen had lost her temper when in truth she had not. Who cares what you or I or anyone else thinks about the use of the flag it only matters what that young lady's husband thinks. And I think he'll find them most agreeable. point of clarification, the comments i was referring to about the queen's tiara were post on the internet regarding the u-tube like video.those post are over on the dpreview board and ll.. ... i was aware that the bbc documentary had materially misrepresented the situation when the story originally aired, which resulted in i believe in either a correction or clarification on their part... as for who cares what any of us think about posted images? to an extent the people who post and ask for criticism do...if they don't care, why post or ask for c&c. Mar 28, 2008 at 07:49 PM

cgardner Online Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! Eye contact is an important element in a portrait for me and #6 is the only shot where both eyes are visible and well lit. That said, since they are intended for her husband, seeing her eyes is less significant since he already has a stored memories of the face which will trigger his emotional reaction. As for the use of flag, it does violate Federal Law per the U.S. Code, but the Supreme Court has also held that abuse of the flag is a form of protected free speech. Dilemmas like that are what make living in a democracy interesting. Last year I played golf on the 4th of July and the course had put US Flags on all the pins. There was a little wire stand to place it on when out of the hole. On one green a playing partner, too focused on his putt, took it out the pin and just put it on the ground. Seeing that I walked over and put it on the little stand off the ground. As we were finishing putting a cart from the next foursome comes zooming up and some old gezzer - a relative term for me these days - jumps out and starts getting the face of the guy who dropped it on the ground, threatening physical violence with his 7-iron if the guy disrespected the flag again. There was certainly no disrespect intended towards the flag by my playing partner, he just had his focus elsewhere and reacted by instinct, taking the flag out of the hole like he usually did. When I saw it on the ground it was also instinctive for me to go pick it up because I respect its symbolism, but I didn't say a word because I realized the guy's mind was elsewhere. I just thought it was very poor judgement on the part of the course to use the flags on the pins in the first place. But curiously, that violation of US Code didn't seem to bother the frothing geezer ready to take a divot out of the forehead of my playing partner. Ironies like that are what make living in a democracy interesting. All things considered the safest place to display or photograph the flag is on proper flagpole waving in a stiff breeze It will not piss anyone off that way... Mar 28, 2008 at 07:58 PM

FipChris Offline Image Upload: Off Beauty and Honor! johnny0110 wrote: The pics are nice.... and to be honest, I never even thought about the use of the flag as a bad thing. I was looking at the photo, like the rest of you should be doing...... The OP said, "I'd really appreciate your C&C on these images from today." Never did it say, "please comment on how wrong you think I am for using the flag like this". Have a nice day. Johnny T. Thanks Johnny! Mar 28, 2008 at 08:32 PM

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