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drew.haynes Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D Well this is giving me a lot of good things to think through. I've looked at the 20D for so long that I hadn't, until a couple days ago, realized that the 30D can now be had for close to 600 used. I won't be buying 'til about June or July.. doing research now. It looks like the 30D may be a legitimate option for me now as well. I'm trying to figure out what makes more sense for starter glass: 1. Tamron 17-50 (the bigger aperture could be helpful) or 2. 18-55 IS + a 35mm OR 50mm prime with a f/2 or f/1.8 respectively. Cost would be similar either way.. but I thought maybe the IS lens would be good enough in good light, and one prime may satisfy all my low-light needs (at least for now) better than the Tamron. Anyone with more professional thoughts on that decision? Mar 27, 2008 at 07:52 PM

terenceng Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D I would recommend 20d/30d with Tamron 17-50 2.8. IS does not replace fast glass. But if you only shoot landscape, go for canon 18-55 IS. Terence Mar 27, 2008 at 10:22 PM

drew.haynes Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D K, makes sense. I'll probably go with the 30D before the 20D.. now that the 30D is so much cheaper, it doesn't seem to make sense to buy a 20D rather than spending another $100 for a new, better camera. Mar 27, 2008 at 10:47 PM

mark1616 Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D I agree that the 30D over the 20D is a good plan. I've had mine for about 18 months and although it now is mainly relegated to a backup or used by a 2nd shooter it still provides lovely shots. I've used it for sports and weddings, landscapes and macro so with the right glass it will give the results you desire. Mar 27, 2008 at 10:50 PM

jvarszegi Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D The 20D will have better low-light performance, faster max shutter, etc. if it matters. Mar 27, 2008 at 10:57 PM

drew.haynes Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D You mean as opposed to the 400D? Not better low-light and faster shutter than the 30D right? Mar 27, 2008 at 10:58 PM

jvarszegi Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D danmitchell wrote: I used to do night photography with an XT - you can't test low light performance much more than that, with exposures measured in minutes. While people would _like_ to believe that the X0D models "blow away" the Rebels in low light performance, it just isn't so. Dan The 20D will do better than the 400D in low light, although it may not "blow it away". Mar 27, 2008 at 10:59 PM

Derek Bez Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D My 2p... Wait a month for the 400D price to drop a bit more, get one, and then think carefully about what accessories (um lenses) you 'need'. The kit 18-55 might be fine for the first week, but you're likely to miss the zoom you may have become used to. Instead of being tempted with a 18-300, if I was in your shoes, I would look at the new Sig 18-125 (I forget the exact range), and then perhaps a 70-x00. Oh, and the 50mm 1.8 or course. Look at it this way: this is your first SLR. If the photography hobby takes off, and in a year or so you feel you need something better, you can go get the 40D and still have the 400D as a backup. Learn with the smaller unit, grow into the bigger boys. Mar 27, 2008 at 11:26 PM

danmitchell Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D jvarszegi wrote: The 20D will do better than the 400D in low light, although it may not "blow it away". So, what is the evidence for that claim? Dan Mar 28, 2008 at 12:25 AM

jvarszegi Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D danmitchell wrote: jvarszegi wrote: The 20D will do better than the 400D in low light, although it may not "blow it away". So, what is the evidence for that claim? Dan We've been over this... many times. For starters, the images the cameras produce. Further, the 400D sensor is less sensitive to light, forcing one to use slower settings in low light. Mar 28, 2008 at 12:41 AM

Alex Yang Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D i shot a rebel XT, XTi, and now 20d. If your budget is low, i say go for the 20d over any rebel series. the noise is handled better, and the larger viewfinder actually makes manual focus possible. but if you have enough for the 40d, i would go for that. i bought my 20d in september ish for $525 and it has served me extremely well, so its always something to look into if youre low on cash. Mar 28, 2008 at 07:39 AM

DMSsix Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D A friend when getting their first DSLR asked me a similar question. He had narrowed his choices down to a new 40D or a used 20D. For a first DSLR, I advised the 20D as cheap as you can get it. He ended up with a 20D for a little over $300 and the 28-135IS for $300. Not that the Rebels make bad pictures, they don't, but from a handling point of view, I just do not like shooting with a camera that small without a grip. For the money, the prices of used 1Ds at this point in time are just insane. I would get a 1D over any Rebel, the 20D and 30D still. I would only consider a 40D in place of a 1D for all the types of shooting I do. Overall, I'd say spend as little on the body as you can while still getting one in good condition and take what extra money that leaves and buy a decent lens to start out. Good luck! Mar 28, 2008 at 06:16 PM

Nick Zarnetske Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D I went from a 350D to a 40D and couldnt be happier. However, If I had started with the 40D first I would have been very frustrated with the complexity over the Rebel. Hope that helps. I spend almost two years with my Rebel and learned soo much that it very worthwhile. I should have kept it for a back up but i'll find one again. Mar 28, 2008 at 06:29 PM

drew.haynes Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D I understand getting a simpler camera as a learning tool before progressing to a more serious DSLR, but at the same time, I felt like that was the point in me buying the Panasonic I have now. It is not an SLR, but I has gotten me fairly familiar with the concepts of exposure, aperture, shutter speed, iso, etc. I know there is a lot more to know, I just don't know how many "learning" cameras I want to go through before I finally start using a high-end DSLR. Mar 28, 2008 at 08:17 PM

84FJ60 Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D Friends: Not to be inflammatory here - I'll make a quick confession that I shot Canon MF film in the past (A1 - wonderful body) and currently shoot Nikon digital (D70, D1x, D2H & D300). I have steered many folks to Cannon & Nikon digital equipment based on their needs (I try to be objective with folks who ask my advice), but if you don't have any lenses and are looking for a step up from the point and shoot, I'd give the following reccomendation: Look at either Pentax or Nikon. You can get a great value in a closeout Pentax K10D or pay a bit more for the K20D and get quite a system when you consider the in-camera image stabilization. You can also go with the Nikon D40x (which is in closeout special) or spring for the D60 or D80. I believe that both of these systems offer a little more value than the Canon entry level offerings right now - especially in regard to wireless flash command and lower image noise at high ISO values. I've had several lengthy discussions with my local Wolf Camera district manager - and he sees the same thing. He also states that his stores are selling many more of the Nikon & Pentax systems than the Canon equivalents. Truthfully, even though I love my Nikon system - if I were starting over and weren't invested so heavily in lenses, I'd probably look long and hard at the Pentax offerings. Good luck with your decision. David Mar 28, 2008 at 09:59 PM

danmitchell Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D Neither of those are exactly true, and neither counts as "evidence," though I'd be willing to accept it as your "opinion." Mine is different. Dan jvarszegi wrote: danmitchell wrote: jvarszegi wrote: The 20D will do better than the 400D in low light, although it may not "blow it away". So, what is the evidence for that claim? Dan We've been over this... many times. For starters, the images the cameras produce. Further, the 400D sensor is less sensitive to light, forcing one to use slower settings in low light. Mar 28, 2008 at 10:50 PM

jvarszegi Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D danmitchell wrote: Neither of those are exactly true, and neither counts as "evidence," though I'd be willing to accept it as your "opinion." Mine is different. Dan jvarszegi wrote: danmitchell wrote: jvarszegi wrote: The 20D will do better than the 400D in low light, although it may not "blow it away". So, what is the evidence for that claim? Dan We've been over this... many times. For starters, the images the cameras produce. Further, the 400D sensor is less sensitive to light, forcing one to use slower settings in low light. Facts are facts, and what I said is exactly true. Mar 29, 2008 at 12:30 AM

danmitchell Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D Got it. If you say it is true, it must be true. That's all the evidence anyone should need... Dan Mar 29, 2008 at 01:49 AM

ShaneEngelking Offline Image Upload: On First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D I am a fan of the build of the 30D/20D, much so more than the XXXD's. and the high iso is a little better, but a little better really means a whole lot in my book. Not to mention the higher frame rate. Mar 29, 2008 at 05:45 AM

15Bit Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D I have a 350D and i must confess i've been delighted with it - don't be put off the Rebels because they're "bottom of the range". I shan't comment on the ISO and autofocus performance (as you're looking at the somewhat upgraded 400D) but with respect to lenses I'd echo the points raised about the standard kit lens - i found mine to be awful and rapidly replaced it with a 17-40mm L and a 50mm F1.8. Both of these are super lenses. Its good advice to pay more for the lenses and less for the camera. Don't worry about build quality by the way - my 350D gets rain, snow and -20C and hasn't coughed once. The 30D etc might be better, but the Rebels more than meet minimum standard. David's comment about choosing a completely different format is worth considering. One of my good friends (and a professional research physicist) has spent the last couple of months looking into exactly the purchase choices you are thinking of and he's going with an olympus E510... Mar 29, 2008 at 07:40 AM

jvarszegi Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D danmitchell wrote: Got it. If you say it is true, it must be true. That's all the evidence anyone should need... Dan The problem is when you repeatedly post lies in support of the 400D. Mar 29, 2008 at 12:57 PM

jvarszegi Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D 15Bit wrote: I have a 350D and i must confess i've been delighted with it - don't be put off the Rebels because they're "bottom of the range". I shan't comment on the ISO and autofocus performance (as you're looking at the somewhat upgraded 400D) but with respect to lenses I'd echo the points raised about the standard kit lens - i found mine to be awful and rapidly replaced it with a 17-40mm L and a 50mm F1.8. Both of these are super lenses. Its good advice to pay more for the lenses and less for the camera. Don't worry about build quality by the way - my 350D gets rain, snow and -20C and hasn't coughed once. The 30D etc might be better, but the Rebels more than meet minimum standard. David's comment about choosing a completely different format is worth considering. One of my good friends (and a professional research physicist) has spent the last couple of months looking into exactly the purchase choices you are thinking of and he's going with an olympus E510... High ISO sensor performance will actually be higher on the 350D than the 400D, although the AF will be better on the 400D. Mar 29, 2008 at 12:58 PM

jvarszegi Offline Image Upload: Off First DSLR: Need advice deciding between Used 20D and New 400D danmitchell wrote: Got it. If you say it is true, it must be true. That's all the evidence anyone should need... Dan Here's just one link: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=20548088&changemode=1 One can also view, just for starters, the settings on the controlled studio shots at DPReview for the 30D vs. the 400D (identical but faster shutter speed on the 30D), etc. The thing that makes you a liar is that I posted all this and more previously in a thread where you were saying the same thing. Comparisons clearly showing the difference were all over the web when the 400D was new. You may have been counting on the fact that some of those pages are now unavailable. Either way, you're giving the wrong advice, and knowingly. Mar 29, 2008 at 01:25 PM

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